Developers Corner

I am curious to see what people think about a skill system that has no grinding. Would you play a game if it used the following system?

The system would have several core classes such as Basic Crafter, Scout, Armsman etc. Each player gets to choose 2 Core classes. One will be chosen during character creation and the other can be chosen later. Only one of the core classes can be advanced into tier 2 sub class.  All characters start the game with a certain number of skill points which will be used when training skills. All skills train in real time the same way the they do in Eve online except unlike that game there is a cap on the number of skills you learn due to the skill points. With this system there is no character level. The con system would evaluate difficulty according to the defensive rating and dps that your character will have.

As an example a player would start the game and choose Craftsman as his starting class. The player then plays a while and advances into an Engineer which is a tier 2 subclass of craftsman. The player then decides his basic weapon skills are not strong enough so he takes Armsman as a 2nd Core class. He trains up armsman eventually maxing out his skills in that class. The player can't become a Soldier because that is a tier 2 subclass so he spends most of his time being an Engineer creating advanced technologies which he can use as well as other people of the game world. This is just an example I don't think there would be enough skill points to max out the tier 2 class and the 2nd core class. There would be so many skills in each class that u could not get every single skill.

This eliminates the need for xp and grinding. This system would allow the player to focus on actually playing the game. It also allows the players to have the sandbox feel but still give defining roles and enabling class balancing.

Crafting Core class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class

Combat Core Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class

Originally posted by NHO3
I am curious to see what people think about a skill system that has no grinding. Would you play a game if it used the following system?

The system would have several core classes such as Basic Crafter, Scout, Armsman etc. Each player gets to choose 2 Core classes. One will be chosen during character creation and the other can be chosen later. Only one of the core classes can be advanced into tier 2 sub class.  All characters start the game with a certain number of skill points which will be used when training skills. All skills train in real time the same way the they do in Eve online except unlike that game there is a cap on the number of skills you learn due to the skill points. With this system there is no character level. The con system would evaluate difficulty according to the defensive rating and dps that your character will have.

As an example a player would start the game and choose Craftsman as his starting class. The player then plays a while and advances into an Engineer which is a tier 2 subclass of craftsman. The player then decides his basic weapon skills are not strong enough so he takes Armsman as a 2nd Core class. He trains up armsman eventually maxing out his skills in that class. The player can't become a Soldier because that is a tier 2 subclass so he spends most of his time being an Engineer creating advanced technologies which he can use as well as other people of the game world. This is just an example I don't think there would be enough skill points to max out the tier 2 class and the 2nd core class. There would be so many skills in each class that u could not get every single skill.

This eliminates the need for xp and grinding. This system would allow the player to focus on actually playing the game. It also allows the players to have the sandbox feel but still give defining roles and enabling class balancing.

Crafting Core class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class

Combat Core Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class
                                     -> Tier 2 Class

Fields in red indicate grinding content.

Sorry man, but EVE has the worst grinding of any MMO I've ever played, and I've played for 2 years off and on waiting for skills to train. If I'm not waiting, then I'm grinding for cash... either way, it's not that fun anymore for me.

I pointed out some specific parts of your description that made me think... "hmm time dedication"... since grinding is based not so much on the hardcore mobbing and farming, but in time investment. I think spending an entire month's subscription waiting to learn how to use a new weapon you can't afford is just ludicrous, but that's my personal opinion, because I'd like to think that I'm going somewhere when I do something in a game, not waiting for a timer.

Such a system would have an awfull problem.

1- You need to kinda be an achiever and enjoy progressing to earn the points you need.

2- Once you are maxed, it seem the achievers hit a wall and would wonder what to do, and prolly quit figuring they play all there is to play.

I think spending an entire month's subscription waiting to learn how to use a new weapon you can't afford is just ludicrous, but that's my personal opinion, because I'd like to think that I'm going somewhere when I do something in a game, not waiting for a timer.

I agree with  you here. I played Eve for quite a while and training skills in real time didn't bother me but I can see how waiting for skills to train can bother certain people. I was originally thinking this system would be designed in such a way that skills wouldn't take more than a week to train and no more than 2-3 months to max out a character. I guess players that focus mainly on gaining xp and skills etc might get bored with a system like this. So what do you think is best? Maybe xp system where you can use the xp to train skills like the original SWG skill system?

Why not get rid of skills all the way?

Let player skill matter in crafting, healing, exploring, trading and in combat. Let things like aiming and distance matter instead of skill level.

When you anyway gonna spend many hours to max out the character, lets use the same time to develop your own skill. It would also take away all bots and make the really good ones stand out from the crowd.

Originally posted by daarco

Why not get rid of skills all the way?

Let player skill matter in crafting, healing, exploring, trading and in combat. Let things like aiming and distance matter instead of skill level.

When you anyway gonna spend many hours to max out the character, lets use the same time to develop your own skill. It would also take away all bots and make the really good ones stand out from the crowd.

I can't agree more, but this isn't easy to do because the game need to stay casual friendly. If the game do not appeal to the casual players because it requires way too much skill to play, the game will fail (not enough players). Skill design is fine for me, the problem is that devs usually don't know how to balance them mechanic-wise as well as player-skill wise. What I mean is that a skill may be gimped in the hands of a bad player but overpowered in the hands of a good player. Why should it be this way ? Should casual players never have a chance to compete with hardcore players ? This is a good question to answer before designing a game, because it is really hard to make right. The learning curve of the game will be tweaked according to this, but it isn't necessary to get rid of skills. I don't feel like aiming and moving my mouse 50 times when mining or fishing.

If developers  don't use skills because hard to balance, then let them to use skill groups.

Skill 1
Skill 2
Skill 3
Skill 4
Skill 5

Class A
 - Skill 1
 - Skill 3
 - Skill 4

Class B
 - Skill 2
 - Skill 4
 - Skill 5

Players select classes and they only skills are what they have in that class. If they swich classes, it's fine. They keep all skills what they have learned, BUT increase current class skill will randomly decreace out off class skill.

Now it's easyer to balance characters because they only need to balance classes, not induvidual skills. Of cause skills need some balance too, but not that much as they would require if it would be free choise.

Originally posted by Liliane
If developers  don't use skills because hard to balance, then let them to use skill groups.

Skill 1
Skill 2
Skill 3
Skill 4
Skill 5

Class A
 - Skill 1
 - Skill 3
 - Skill 4

Class B
 - Skill 2
 - Skill 4
 - Skill 5

Players select classes and they only skills are what they have in that class. If they swich classes, it's fine. They keep all skills what they have learned, BUT increase current class skill will randomly decreace out off class skill.

Now it's easyer to balance characters because they only need to balance classes, not induvidual skills. Of cause skills need some balance too, but not that much as they would require if it would be free choise.

 

This is my favourite topic, games don't need classes they just need skills. Certain groups of skill generally predefine a class. So long as a System has categories of skilll which are equal and opposite for example .

Mage Skills negate Warrior skills

Stealth Skills negate Ranged Skills

Skills or abilities increase through use and degrade through lack of use. But never below the xp threshold 50%.

As long as a System of equal and opposites exists then balance is not an issue. Levels can be gained through total xp in a skill at 50% of a skills max potential you stop getting xp towards level but you can improve the skill upto 100%.

As you level then attributes can be increased which negate