Developers Corner

I am tired of being led around by the nose by game designers.

Sure in single player games, this is how it is done, and when done REALLY well, you hardly realize that every interaction you are having was preconceived and preprogrammed by the devs.  But that's ok right?

But not for MMOs.   I am tired of joining these games where the player is a meaningless plug in to a slot that the narrow minded design puts them in.  Even when you join a social structure, a guild of some kind, the game has a structure for this, you plug in the names of the people, you slap them into the same instanced dungeons and they consume the 40+ participant content that was designed for just such an occasion.  Why do we need more of the same old preprogrammed quests to get more of the same items to participate in more of the same meaningless combat?

What we NEED is a beautifully designed and crafted world with boundaries of what can be done with the materials at hand.  Not some open sandbox where you can create a giant clown for a house, nor a strict preset path to follow.  Simply a design that allows for players to work with unique situations created by factors at play in a particular area of the world in order to meet goals they set themselves within the context of a consistent world that functions on systems of resources and physics and logistics and human organization.  A game that fosters interaction AS the gameplay, not as simply another way to grind a mob.

Just imagine:  You log into such a world.  You look around and what do you see?  You see the exquisite tree models and the vibrant skies and the sweeping layout of the mountains with all their deposits of minerals and the sparkling seas with their abundance of fish, the finely crafted creatures with interesting and dynamic behaviors.  You might even begin to perceive the changing weather patterns and the physics systems that only allow so much weight to be supported by the kinds of stone arches on certain thicknesses of walls.  But WAIT?  Who placed those arches in that structure you see there?  Was it the devs? No, they placed the mountains and the trees and all that, and they did a GREAT job, they even designed the physics system and the parts of buildings that can be assembled in countless ways and covered with hundreds of decorative motifs and built of various materials mined out of the earth which were placed there by the devs, YES all that they did, but the PLACEMENT of this arch, right here on this wall, in a decorative fashion but with a mind for aesthetics and stability and even with a plan for good defensive positioning, THAT VERY ARCH that supports the gate house over the entrance in a thick wall with well spaced towers built of strong stone quarried from the hills by the managed and cooperative labor of hundreds of workers who had to be fed by food brought in an organized manner from the surrounding farming enterprises while the borders of the land were guarded from any interference while funds had to be continually raised, managed, and negotiated, YES all those THINGS were conducted and enacted by the PLAYERS themselves.

And as time goes on, they populate the land under various governmental structures that rise and fall, and each individual mercenary or hunter or soldier or spy or thief functions within the infrastructure of interaction that the players have built. 

So again you log into this world and the actions you take from moment to moment, while in a world that the devs created, are not dictated by their programming at all.  Now it is up to you to decide what you want to do.  Maybe you still just want to kill monsters all day.  So be it.  But you will need a weapon right?  How do you get it?  Do you play the quest that the dev's made so that you can get a worthless newbie weapon and open up the skill of 'swinging sharp objects'? NO!  You simply have to find a way to get a hold of a sword, and that could be any number of ways determined by the current situation.  Are swords even sold publicly in this area?  Could you maybe steal one if the opportunity arose?  Maybe there is a player army just dying to get recruits and they will equip you fully and then you could desert and then they would be after you if they ever caught you so you would have made a real enemy.  At any rate any of these choices are produced by the countless possibilities created by thousands of player interactions and so when you choose to do any one of them, it is because YOU set an initial goal and then had to figure out a way to accomplish in the the dynamic world at hand.

That to me is the ultimate gaming experience, maybe you agree.  This is for me the true (and unmet) potential of the MMORPG genre.

I agree with the concept. I too would like to see and play such a game you described. That said I'd like to mention some points that could be troublesome in this concept.

First, this whole thing rules out classes. If all organisation is done by the players themselves then there can't be pre-existing priestly orders, schools of fighting, wizard academies, etc. These would have to be created by players. This isn't necessarily a problem, I just thought I'd point out that you're constraining yourself to one of the two mainstream skill systems.

Second, this concept is a huge step towards reintroducing roleplaying into mmorpgs. I welcome this wholeheartedly. But for such a free rpg to work well you'll need to ease the player into the setting very smoothly. That is extremely hard and I'd like to advise any dev not to underestimate this if he wants to make this concept a reality. It is not enough to make the core rules of the world work along the lines of natural logic it is also necessary to make players suspend their disbelief. Otherwise the whole thing will fail. Players will look for a way to win the game (reach some kind of goal like max level) and won't even attempt to have fun living in the world. And when they see there is no such thing they'll fail to see the point in playing the game. Suspension of disbelief is a fundamental pre-requisite for roleplaying and without roleplaying this concept can not work in my opinion.

I'm not one to talk about a problem without providing a soltion so here's my idea:
Work the relation between real-life persona and ingame persona into the game concept. As I see this is a great divide between roleplayers and non-roleplayers. One side has to ignore the real world while playing and the other side thinks that's stupid or they just can't do it. So let's remove the root of the problem. Make the world work sorta like the matrix. Let the ingame persona know about the real world.
There's a number of viable scenarios:
- The gods who created the world are too lazy to create their own version of humans so they allow people from earth to come and live on it. This can be done by logging on to the game server and they translate binary data into reality on their world.
- The world is a mass hallucination had by anyone who logs onto the game server.
- etc.
Now I know this might sound silly and unimportant but I believe that without this the game simply would not work. In a pen&paper game session every participant is 'logged on' at the same time. In an online rpg the illusion is broken once someone logs off or goes afk for whatever reason. Where the heck did he disappear to? Why isn't he moving or responding? These things instantly remind the player that this is a game. But if everyone knew that these things are natural in the world then these situations could be easily handled without making things awkward. Again this probably sounds unimportant to many people but believe me when I say that this is absolutely necessary for roleplayers and non-roleplayers to coexist in a free gaming environment.

Well, I can't think of anything else to add right now. I hope others will agree that this concept is worth all the attention from players and devs as well.

Originally posted by ironore
I am tired of being led around by the nose by game designers.

Sure in single player games, this is how it is done, and when done REALLY well, you hardly realize that every interaction you are having was preconceived and preprogrammed by the devs.  But that's ok right?

But not for MMOs.   I am tired of joining these games where the player is a meaningless plug in to a slot that the narrow minded design puts them in.  Even when you join a social structure, a guild of some kind, the game has a structure for this, you plug in the names of the people, you slap them into the same instanced dungeons and they consume the 40+ participant content that was designed for just such an occasion.  Why do we need more of the same old preprogrammed quests to get more of the same items to participate in more of the same meaningless combat?

What we NEED is a beautifully designed and crafted world with boundaries of what can be done with the materials at hand.  Not some open sandbox where you can create a giant clown for a house, nor a strict preset path to follow.  Simply a design that allows for players to work with unique situations created by factors at play in a particular area of the world in order to meet goals they set themselves within the context of a consistent world that functions on systems of resources and physics and logistics and human organization.  A game that fosters interaction AS the gameplay, not as simply another way to grind a mob.

Just imagine:  You log into such a world.  You look around and what do you see?  You see the exquisite tree models and the vibrant skies and the sweeping layout of the mountains with all their deposits of minerals and the sparkling seas with their abundance of fish, the finely crafted creatures with interesting and dynamic behaviors.  You might even begin to perceive the changing weather patterns and the physics systems that only allow so much weight to be supported by the kinds of stone arches on certain thicknesses of walls.  But WAIT?  Who placed those arches in that structure you see there?  Was it the devs? No, they placed the mountains and the trees and all that, and they did a GREAT job, they even designed the physics system and the parts of buildings that can be assembled in countless ways and covered with hundreds of decorative motifs and built of various materials mined out of the earth which were placed there by the devs, YES all that they did, but the PLACEMENT of this arch, right here on this wall, in a decorative fashion but with a mind for aesthetics and stability and even with a plan for good defensive positioning, THAT VERY ARCH that supports the gate house over the entrance in a thick wall with well spaced towers built of strong stone quarried from the hills by the managed and cooperative labor of hundreds of workers who had to be fed by food brought in an organized manner from the surrounding farming enterprises while the borders of the land were guarded from any interference while funds had to be continually raised, managed, and negotiated, YES all those THINGS were conducted and enacted by the PLAYERS themselves.

And as time goes on, they populate the land under various governmental structures that rise and fall, and each individual mercenary or hunter or soldier or spy or thief functions within the infrastructure of interaction that the players have built. 

So again you log into this world and the actions you take from moment to moment, while in a world that the devs created, are not dictated by their programming at all.  Now it is up to you to decide what you want to do.  Maybe you still just want to kill monsters all day.  So be it.  But you will need a weapon right?  How do you get it?  Do you play the quest that the dev's made so that you can get a worthless newbie weapon and open up the skill of 'swinging sharp objects'? NO!  You simply have to find a way to get a hold of a sword, and that could be any number of ways determined by the current situation.  Are swords even sold publicly in this area?  Could you maybe steal one if the opportunity arose?  Maybe there is a player army just dying to get recruits and they will equip you fully and then you could desert and then they would be after you if they ever caught you so you would have made a real enemy.  At any rate any of these choices are produced by the countless possibilities created by thousands of player interactions and so when you choose to do any one of them, it is because YOU set an initial goal and then had to figure out a way to accomplish in the the dynamic world at hand.

That to me is the ultimate gaming experience, maybe you agree.  This is for me the true (and unmet) potential of the MMORPG genre.

I like what you said here ironore, and I would want to ask some questions for you to clarify to make your concept more sound. (btw, I too am fed up with the present format of MMO gameplay.)

In your idea all the devs did was create a working world with resources for players to build on right? 
What do you mean by world with boundaries?  can you clarify what kind of boundaries are you talkinga about?
Will this game tries to appeal to the masses?  or will it stay a "niche game" for those who wanted a virtual world feel?
What kind of PvP/PvE you are thinking that will work with the concept?

I agree with the OP, and think that this style of game is what MMORPGs are ultimately leading up to. There are, however, some problems. First of all, as of now, devs don't seem to be interested in spending the time or energy on crafting a system that is this versatile. Secondly, believe it or not, people actually enjoy being told what to do. Freedom is what you perceive it to be, and to some degree, having a quest or goal is what keeps people going. I think that games such as the conceptual one you described have the potential to be really great, but first people have to find a balance between "freedom" and "being led around by the nose"

Thank you for the replies.   I will try and address the main points and questions you all brought up.


It is very true that such a design rules out things like classes and dev-created organizations, and this is intentional in many ways, but it does tie in with other points about less-motivated players finding something to do, and I will address this below.

I am very glad that it was perceived that this design fosters roleplaying, but perhaps not exactly in the traditional sense.  It was mentioned that some people are good at 'ignoring' the real world, and others just find that silly.  I propose that such a design that focuses on creating a dynamic and coherent secondary world will create 'real' roles, if you will, actual niches that players find they can fill and discover that they are good at.  The variety of these roles is endless, and even for a 'non-role-player' I believe it will be easy to ease into such roles because it will actually bring many of their own skills to play as far as interaction with the world and others goes.  This of course doesn't rule out players that like to throw a little more of the pretend into things, but those that don't do that sort of thing will find that their role, as far as the game world is concerned, is easy to get into because it functions somewhat realistically.  If you are a mercenary soldier, you don't really have to pretend anything, you just go from place to place looking to make money as a hired sword.  All your actions and motivations will fall into place naturally.

I am also working on a plan to integrate new players smoothly, and indeed, in such a design players are the most valuable resource as large scale management of any organization or social structure will require cooperation and delegation of authority.  This leads into the point that SOME players enjoy being told what to do.  I would say that some also like to do the telling.  This works because those that are interested in organization building and planning will need those that are willing to take some orders and direction in order to get things done.

As far as the boundaries I meant for a working world with resources, I mean that you can't just have a world where anything is possible (though we want a wide variety) and I want the whole world to be in existence so that players can go from one end to the other and and even wrap from east to west (although north to south is a different story and we won't go into that here).  So by boundaries, I mean the world itself is built and defined, but what HAPPENS there is entirely up to the players.  Also although the world is defined, the players don't know everything about it and this is a constant source of discovery.   This ties in with the question about PvE which will really just be the players discovering different aspects of the world and adapting to further their goals in different environments.  Some areas will be hard for certain forms of transportation.  Some areas will be abundant in one resource and scarce in others.  Weather conditions and agricultural yields will vary widely.  All these factors create unique situations that shape player interaction with both the environment and with each other.

PvP is similar very free and open as the design implies, but remember without classes and levels and massive skill gains and mobs to grind for random loot to appear out of thin air, the ways the players interact with one another in competitive ways will be very different than what we have currently.    Players will have the power and means to organize themselves in such a way to keep order in those areas that they can extend their political reach, but there will always be shifting fringe areas.  Also without wide gaps in player power, and with no numerical indicators, and with the possibility of actual social/political/economic repercussions for aggressive actions, players will be more likely to attack with reason and have a plan.  Random griefers may have some success in very wild areas but I see them having a very difficult time accomplishing much.  Remember they can't just go grind mobs on their own to get well equipped and powerful and then attack new players.  All the items come from the organized enterprises of players and someone who is on the outside of such cooperative structures and who adds nothing to the game community will get very little back from it.

Lastly, I would say that I think this game would appeal to the masses.  It also appeals to the niche market.  The reason I say this is that with such a dynamic world and a diversity of actions that players can take, it has a bit of something for everyone combined.  Some players will focus on the traditional fighting and acquisition of items, and within certain social structures this will be a very fulfilling game for them.  It will be different from other games because the complex factions and politics and missions they go on are all motivated by game-world concerns and so will be more compelling.   On the other hand you will have people interested in economic aspects of the game, in the diverse political and organizational roles.  Also there will be the crafters that enjoy nothing more than gaining skill in something like architecture so that they can design the best structures and site them on ideal locations and be renowned for their skills.  The same goes for the weapon smiths, the armorers, and even the business minded ranchers and plantation owners that keep the food sources coming in to support the masses of human laborers for the truly monumental tasks that build up empires and nations.  Don't forget the organized crime syndicates, spy networks, forest bandit groups, explorers, prospectors, hunters, entertainers, rare-herb gatherers, magical-experimenters, etc. etc. etc. that all find those aspects of the game that appeal to them most and mesh best with their interests and personalities.  All these will have a unique way to fit into the world and they can always do and learn different things as they are exposed to new and changing situations.

I hope this answered some questions.  Please post any other questions or ask for further clarification or add your insights and further discussion points.   Thanks.

you know, I wouldn't mind all this grinding or being led by the developers if the way they led you was actually fun right now nearly every MMORPG out there isn't fun it just simply feels like a second job where your goaded at by the other higher level players to grind ( and I've honestly told those people to fuck off occasionally out of anger when I'm trying to enjoy the game ) It's got nothing to do with the grind anymore I believe, developers just are simply not making MMORPG's that are fun they're just making linear hack and slash grind games that have no real meaning to the