Originally posted by infrared1

http://www.mmognation.com/2007/05/14/how-they-make-star-wars-galaxies/

(from the article)

The problem is one of time. We talked at some length about the problems facing designers the simple act of adding a quest to the game. SWG was not designed to have quests added on a regular basis; SWG’s sandbox concept when the game launched is still working against them. As a result, the tools they’re using (to this day) are awkward and clumsy when you consider the amount of information they’d like to add for a given quest. It’s something they’re working on.

OMG! LMAO!!!

This just proves that SOE has no clue how to develop a game.

Any smart person would have ditched the old SWG and started developing a new game called SWGII or something. Now SOE is stuck with convoluted code. They are spending so much time and money to work with an outdated and bastardized code. The game would be so much more advantageous to us as players if they just let SWG die and start a fresh new game with code that does what they need it to do, when they want it. Hell, they would save a lot of time and money.

This entire paragraph screams, "We don't know what we are doing."

Also, consider this. What do you think would happen if SOE released SWG - classic servers to the world tomorrow??

There has been so much talk about SWG pre-CU that I believe that people would come back in droves, and those that have heard all the hub-bub would come to see what all the ruckus is about. I believe that SWG - classic would see subs that far exceed the original player-base by far. Now is the time for SOE to do it. The classic would see huge numbers. Just my opinion though.

 

 

Well I believe one of the reasons for the cu and nge, besides trying to bring more subs, was that they put too many things in swg and weren't able to keep up with all the profession tree balances, quests,crafting, etc. SWG pre-cu was what they wanted, but they couldn't keep up with all the aspects without hiring more programmers, thus reducing the cash flow from the game, and they decided that perhaps redoing a system over was a god idea to bring in more people, and implement things on a regular basis, and make sure they work properly.

The only problem here is that soe should not have removed SO MANY things form the game that made it unique and complex, and it drove its playerbase away. Their plan is still in motion, as you see expertise systems, new crafting changes, new professions, etc, but they took out too much stuff to fast, and screwed itself over.

And btw, from what I have seen on MANY MANY sites and discussions about soe bringing back a pre-cu server, almost 3/4 of vets would NOT come back, for fear of soe pulling the rug from under them again. So I believe a pre-cu server would not bring back the droves, but hey you never know, and at this point what would they lose for trying, or at least having a poll or something.

Originally posted by JPR1985

Originally posted by infrared1

http://www.mmognation.com/2007/05/14/how-they-make-star-wars-galaxies/

(from the article)

The problem is one of time. We talked at some length about the problems facing designers the simple act of adding a quest to the game. SWG was not designed to have quests added on a regular basis; SWG’s sandbox concept when the game launched is still working against them. As a result, the tools they’re using (to this day) are awkward and clumsy when you consider the amount of information they’d like to add for a given quest. It’s something they’re working on.

OMG! LMAO!!!

This just proves that SOE has no clue how to develop a game.

Any smart person would have ditched the old SWG and started developing a new game called SWGII or something. Now SOE is stuck with convoluted code. They are spending so much time and money to work with an outdated and bastardized code. The game would be so much more advantageous to us as players if they just let SWG die and start a fresh new game with code that does what they need it to do, when they want it. Hell, they would save a lot of time and money.

This entire paragraph screams, "We don't know what we are doing."

Also, consider this. What do you think would happen if SOE released SWG - classic servers to the world tomorrow??

There has been so much talk about SWG pre-CU that I believe that people would come back in droves, and those that have heard all the hub-bub would come to see what all the ruckus is about. I believe that SWG - classic would see subs that far exceed the original player-base by far. Now is the time for SOE to do it. The classic would see huge numbers. Just my opinion though.

 

 

 

Well I believe one of the reasons for the cu and nge, besides trying to bring more subs, was that they put too many things in swg and weren't able to keep up with all the profession tree balances, quests,crafting, etc. SWG pre-cu was what they wanted, but they couldn't keep up with all the aspects without hiring more programmers, thus reducing the cash flow from the game, and they decided that perhaps redoing a system over was a god idea to bring in more people, and implement things on a regular basis, and make sure they work properly.

 

The only problem here is that soe should not have removed SO MANY things form the game that made it unique and complex, and it drove its playerbase away. Their plan is still in motion, as you see expertise systems, new crafting changes, new professions, etc, but they took out too much stuff to fast, and screwed itself over.

 

And btw, from what I have seen on MANY MANY sites and discussions about soe bringing back a pre-cu server, almost 3/4 of vets would NOT come back, for fear of soe pulling the rug from under them again. So I believe a pre-cu server would not bring back the droves, but hey you never know, and at this point what would they lose for trying, or at least having a poll or something.

Its actually true.  It is hard to develop content for a SandBox type game.  You have to be weary of what players have done themselves and it varies server by server.  The only real method to add content is to make a new area and then put the entire new content into it.  Also tools made up to only a year ago are awkward and clumsy to use.  Only through middle-ware can a company really make use of an easy functional tool set.  When people program thier own engines they really only make toolsets to a standard in the industry at the time.  They all are pretty much clunky right now and the easier to use ones are coming out this year.  Some problem areas with current technology sets have to be how they handle scripts, shaders, and particles.

Some engines right now take in the upwards of 20 minutes to import just 1 model.  I know for Quake and Source you have to write a custom script for each model.  In Unreal in order to script you have to do a whole lot more file management.

http://www.mmognation.com/2007/05/14/how-they-make-star-wars-galaxies/

(from the article)

The problem is one of time. We talked at some length about the problems facing designers the simple act of adding a quest to the game. SWG was not designed to have quests added on a regular basis; SWG’s sandbox concept when the game launched is still working against them. As a result, the tools they’re using (to this day) are awkward and clumsy when you consider the amount of information they’d like to add for a given quest. It’s something they’re working on.

OMG! LMAO!!!

This just proves that SOE has no clue how to develop a game.

Any smart person would have ditched the old SWG and started developing a new game called SWGII or something. Now SOE is stuck with convoluted code. They are spending so much time and money to work with an outdated and bastardized code. The game would be so much more advantageous to us as players if they just let SWG die and start a fresh new game with code that does what they need it to do, when they want it. Hell, they would save a lot of time and money.

This entire paragraph screams, "We don't know what we are doing."

Also, consider this. What do you think would happen if SOE released SWG - classic servers to the world tomorrow??

There has been so much talk about SWG pre-CU that I believe that people would come back in droves, and those that have heard all the hub-bub would come to see what all the ruckus is about. I believe that SWG - classic would see subs that far exceed the original player-base by far. Now is the time for SOE to do it. The classic would see huge numbers. Just my opinion though.

 

 

Ah now that makes sense one of the SOE devs did tell me their designers were writing server side scripts hence some of the crazy problems they've had with that MMO. yeah it would be a nightmare to add new quests if your designers have to code it themselves. not sure why they just didnt code some good tools and let their designers use that. They sorta tried to turn their designers into coders which never works out too well in the long run (also looking at you unreal engine / kismet)

on the other hand, since they started out as sandbox I suppose their designers were writing scripts to change some basic things like equipment behavior. so, once they did the dumb move going from sandbox to conventional, uninpsired MMO overnight I can see why they screwed up NGE so bad

Originally posted by CleffyII

Its actually true.  It is hard to develop content for a SandBox type game.  You have to be weary of what players have done themselves and it varies server by server.  The only real method to add content is to make a new area and then put the entire new content into it.  Also tools made up to only a year ago are awkward and clumsy to use.  Only through middle-ware can a company really make use of an easy functional tool set.  When people program thier own engines they really only make toolsets to a standard in the industry at the time.  They all are pretty much clunky right now and the easier to use ones are coming out this year.  Some problem areas with current technology sets have to be how they handle scripts, shaders, and particles.

Some engines right now take in the upwards of 20 minutes to import just 1 model.  I know for Quake and Source you have to write a custom script for each model.  In Unreal in order to script you have to do a whole lot more file management.

Originally posted by Crose
Originally posted by infrared1

http://www.mmognation.com/2007/05/14/how-they-make-star-wars-galaxies/

(from the article)

The problem is one of time. We talked at some length about the problems facing designers the simple act of adding a quest to the game. SWG was not designed to have quests added on a regular basis; SWG’s sandbox concept when the game launched is still working against them. As a result, the tools they’re using (to this day) are awkward and clumsy when you consider the amount of information they’d like to add for a given quest. It’s something they’re working on.

OMG! LMAO!!!

This just proves that SOE has no clue how to develop a game.

Any smart person would have ditched the old SWG and started developing a new game called SWGII or something. Now SOE is stuck with convoluted code. They are spending so much time and money to work with an outdated and bastardized code. The game would be so much more advantageous to us as players if they just let SWG die and start a fresh new game with code that does what they need it to do, when they want it. Hell, they would save a lot of time and money.

This entire paragraph screams, "We don't know what we are doing."

Also, consider this. What do you think would happen if SOE released SWG - classic servers to the world tomorrow??

There has been so much talk about SWG pre-CU that I believe that people would come back in droves, and those that have heard all the hub-bub would come to see what all the ruckus is about. I believe that SWG - classic would see subs that far exceed the original player-base by far. Now is the time for SOE to do it. The classic would see huge numbers. Just my opinion though.

 

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's proof that you don't know how to develop a game.  I'm fairly certain you don't have anywhere near the experience that some SOE devs have.  So how, exactly, can you judge them on something you know nothing about?

And please don't misconstrue this as an attempt to defend SOE.  All I'm doing is calling out one of the many idiots on these boards that act like they know anything about what they're talking about.  You're like one of those people that makes up sub numbers and throws around comments like "this game will be dead in 9 months," or "they only have 10k subs lolol" when the reality is, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

So please, stop it.  Despite what you think of them, SOE has done a lot of things right in the recent years.  EQ2 is a testament to that.  Hell, EQ1 is a testament to that.  Stop looking for reasons to hate on SOE.  Go do your homework.

Originally posted by infrared1

Originally posted by CleffyII

Its actually true.  It is hard to develop content for a SandBox type game.  You have to be weary of what players have done themselves and it varies server by server.  The only real method to add content is to make a new area and then put the entire new content into it.  Also tools made up to only a year ago are awkward and clumsy to use.  Only through middle-ware can a company really make use of an easy functional tool set.  When people program thier own engines they really only make toolsets to a standard in the industry at the time.  They all are pretty much clunky right now and the easier to use ones are coming out this year.  Some problem areas with current technology sets have to be how they handle scripts, shaders, and particles.

Some engines right now take in the upwards of 20 minutes to import just 1 model.  I know for Quake and Source you have to write a custom script for each model.  In Unreal in order to script you have to do a whole lot more file management.

I understand why SOE did the NGE, it makes sense from a programmers POV. But why use any of the original code? It obviously didn't suit their needs in way of making a better game. Why didn't they just ditch the bitch and start with a fresh new code that would cater more to what they had in mind. It makes no sense to try and rewrite code after code. The game is broken and they are still trying to fix it nearly 5 years after its release. Is this a pre-cursor to how they will handle VG.

At the time the CU came online SWG was nearly perfect in its vision. It just needed a bit more bug fixing and some content and it would have been awesome. Now we have a totally broken game, and by the sounds of the article this will be the norm for SWG. Who really knows if they can ever really fix the damn thing. I say kill it and start a new game that works for everyone and give them a bit more options and a lot less work. It seems they are doing 3 times the work.

no, i think you got it wrong. The CU broke the game. Everyone was a jedi, the devs made it so easy for people to become jedi, that some of the other proffessions were barely even played. The day i saw 50 jedi fighting in theed was the day i knew SWG was broken, that was also the day i canceled my subscription.

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by infrared1

Originally posted by CleffyII

Its actually true.  It is hard to develop content for a SandBox type game.  You have to be weary of what players have done themselves and it varies server by server.  The only real method to add content is to make a new area and then put the entire new content into it.  Also tools made up to only a year ago are awkward and clumsy to use.  Only through middle-ware can a company really make use of an easy functional tool set.  When people program thier own engines they really only make toolsets to a standard in the industry at the time.  They all are pretty much clunky right now and the easier to use ones are coming out this year.  Some problem areas with current technology sets have to be how they handle scripts, shaders, and particles.

Some engines right now take in the upwards of 20 minutes to import just 1 model.  I know for Quake and Source you have to write a custom script for each model.  In Unreal in order to script you have to do a whole lot more file management.

I understand why SOE did the NGE, it makes sense from a programmers POV. But why use any of the original code? It obviously didn't suit their needs in way of making a better game. Why didn't they just ditch the bitch and start with a fresh new code that would cater more to what they had in mind. It makes no sense to try and rewrite code after code. The game is broken and they are still trying to fix it nearly 5 years after its release. Is this a pre-cursor to how they will handle VG.

At the time the CU came online SWG was nearly perfect in its vision. It just needed a bit more bug fixing and some content and it would have been awesome. Now we have a totally broken game, and by the sounds of the article this will be the norm for SWG. Who really knows if they can ever really fix the damn thing. I say kill it and start a new game that works for everyone and give them a bit more options and a lot less work. It seems they are doing 3 times the work.

 

no, i think you got it wrong. The CU broke the game. Everyone was a jedi, the devs made it so easy for people to become jedi, that some of the other proffessions were barely even played. The day i saw 50 jedi fighting in theed was the day i knew SWG was broken, that was also the day i canceled my subscription.

Originally posted by xPaladin
Before anyone jumps on the anti-sandbox bandwagon here, the issues with SWG are primarily with their own toolset and worldbuilder. The sandbox model isn't working against them, they were just too stupid to make proper tools to accommodate the sandbox setting.

It's easy for them to deflect blame, but the real issue here is that they couldn't competently handle a sandbox design. That doesn't mean it's impossible to do so.

Originally posted by thepatriot

Originally posted by xPaladin
Before anyone jumps on the anti-sandbox bandwagon here, the issues with SWG are primarily with their own toolset and worldbuilder. The sandbox model isn't working against them, they were just too stupid to make proper tools to accommodate the sandbox setting.

It's easy for them to deflect blame, but the real issue here is that they couldn't competently handle a sandbox design. That doesn't mean it's impossible to do so.

Actually it's more likely a matter of economics.  The original game was not meant to have quests, it was a sandbox game.  Now the issue is how much it would cost and how long it would take to write those tools.   That means no bug fixing or new content during that time.   If the economics only support a team of 20 then I doubt they could afford the time or the money to write the tools.

Originally posted by infrared1

At the time the CU came online SWG was nearly perfect in its vision. It just needed a bit more bug fixing and some content and it would have been awesome. Now we have a totally broken game, and by the sounds of the article this will be the norm for SWG. Who really knows if they can ever really fix the damn thing. I say kill it and start a new game that works for everyone and give them a bit more options and a lot less work. It seems they are doing 3 times the work.

Originally posted by Manmadegod

Originally posted by thepatriot

Originally posted by xPaladin
Before anyone jumps on the anti-sandbox bandwagon here, the issues with SWG are primarily with their own toolset and worldbuilder. The sandbox model isn't working against them, they were just too stupid to make proper tools to accommodate the sandbox setting.

It's easy for them to deflect blame, but the real issue here is that they couldn't competently handle a sandbox design. That doesn't mean it's impossible to do so.

Actually it's more likely a matter of economics.  The original game was not meant to have quests, it was a sandbox game.  Now the issue is how much it would cost and how long it would take to write those tools.   That means no bug fixing or new content during that time.   If the economics only support a team of 20 then I doubt they could afford the time or the money to write the tools.

Investment = return... At least in a working business model..

Yes I agree, now we just have to convince the bean counters at LA and SOE.

WTF are they talking about!  Not able to add quests on a regular basis?  What does the old profession skills have to do with not able to add quests?  They had no problem adding all the jedi quests after publish 9(or whatever publish that ended the holo grind). 

No matter which format people support pre-cu/cu/nge, it is time for a new SW MMO anyway.  The game is 4 years old and out-dated. 

Originally posted by thepatriot

Originally posted by infrared1

At the time the CU came online SWG was nearly perfect in its vision. It just needed a bit more bug fixing and some content and it would have been awesome. Now we have a totally broken game, and by the sounds of the article this will be the norm for SWG. Who really knows if they can ever really fix the damn thing. I say kill it and start a new game that works for everyone and give them a bit more options and a lot less work. It seems they are doing 3 times the work.

The game was always broken (just ask any smuggler) and the whole issue is that the old system was nearly impossible to write content for.  How do you write content that can be handled by a group of 20 or a group of 2.  That was always the problem, the game mechanics were not conducive to questing (aka content) but everyone wanted content.  Which is why the the CU and later the NGE happened.  To make it easier for the devs and the casual player.  The game was not even close to perfection.  The subs were falling and they felt they had to do something drastic.

Originally posted by Manmadegod

I still hold to the fact that SWG in the pre cu form was one of the best and most innovative visions of a MMORPG ever concieved. I was saddened to see it go and I miss it... I even loved to craft in SWG which is a rarity for me.

I agree 100%, I was just never sure it should have been tied to SW.  I feel that the SW expectations weighed too heavily on the game and that it would have been an amazing game if they had created their own IP instead.  This would have avoided the entire Jedi issue and everyone could have just played the game.  That and the fact that they didn't think questing was important were IMO the big mistakes made with the game.  I always admired the innovation in the game mechanics they came up with.

Originally posted by achesoma

WTF are they talking about!  Not able to add quests on a regular basis?  What does the old profession skills have to do with not able to add quests?  They had no problem adding all the jedi quests after publish 9(or whatever publish that ended the holo grind). 

No matter which format people support pre-cu/cu/nge, it is time for a new SW MMO anyway.  The game is 4 years old and out-dated.