Developers Corner

What would you do as a dev, to improve the interactivity and the balancability of a pvp game ? Leave the fun factor outside of this discussion, because I think that the more balanced a game is, the more fun it is... so this isn't an issue. However balance always came with nerfs, buffs or conditions/restrictions. Can we get rid of this ? Can a game be trully open to the players' imagination while staying balanced and enjoyable ? There is several aspects to consider, before attempting an answer. Feel free to add anything you feel missing or incorrect.

1. The targeting system

What I would do is to implement a skill working as a scanner, so players who dislike twitch-based games can still play the game. However this feature has a cost, and points invested in this skill aren't used for other skills, to make it balanced. The most skilled players will have a clear advantage.

2. The interface

I'd like to not have to watch my skill bar or party panel at all, only the action matters. The problem is that no game have done this right yet, so I don't know what works or not. In a game with hundreds of skills it is hard to make meaningful animations for each skill, but I think that it can be done. Like I'm saying in point 3, we don't need that much skills in a game to begin with.

3. Balance between skills

In most games, you have skills which can be used on : self, allies, enemies, terrain. These restrictions are made for balance purposes, however I'd like a more interactive way of using skills. I feel that we don't need 136 skills with the same effect : making red bars go up or down. I would make a unique skill that you can use in combination with others to get the desired effect : aoe, damage or heal, used on self, allies, enemies, etc... This will offer more freedom than balance made on cooldowns, casting time, targeting, because if you look at games carefully, most skills are variant of basic skills balanced by a more conditional use, increased cost or effect.

4. Range

In most games skills don't scale with range, you are in range or not. A increasing miss penalty would be nice to balance the use of ranged skills, along with a scale in power and cost.

5. Party size

I would not balance skills with the size of the party. If you are outnumbered, it's up to your group to maneuver and build your way to victory. However there is a point when nearly instant kills occur, and this isn't fun at all. It may be necessary to slow the pace of the battle by reducing damage and healing, when there is too much fighters involved. How to balance such a dynamic variable, I don't know.

Originally posted by Truthseeker

What would you do as a dev, to improve the interactivity and the balancability of a pvp game ? Leave the fun factor outside of this discussion, because I think that the more balanced a game is, the more fun it is... so this isn't an issue. However balance always came with nerfs, buffs or conditions/restrictions. Can we get rid of this ? Can a game be trully open to the players' imagination while staying balanced and enjoyable ? There is several aspects to consider, before attempting an answer. Feel free to add anything you feel missing or incorrect.

1. The targeting system

What I would do is to implement a skill working as a scanner, so players who dislike twitch-based games can still play the game. However this feature has a cost, and points invested in this skill aren't used for other skills, to make it balanced. The most skilled players will have a clear advantage.

This part is debatable.  Some would say that you are putting phsical (hand-eye coordination) skills above the character skills, and for some players, especially the disabled players, that is a big disadventage.  It should be an option (which targeting system to use) rather than using character skill vs player skill.  Personally if I'm developing a game, I would choose to make it an option to choose between the systems.

2. The interface

I'd like to not have to watch my skill bar or party panel at all, only the action matters. The problem is that no game have done this right yet, so I don't know what works or not. In a game with hundreds of skills it is hard to make meaningful animations for each skill, but I think that it can be done. Like I'm saying in point 3, we don't need that much skills in a game to begin with.

This part is mostly preferences though.  Some like to see what they are using, some think that that's too complex, and just make the basic moves with "combos" built-in with certain keys (kinda like street fighters system of specials).  It's all about preferences, and interface isn't as important as the base system of the design (imo).

3. Balance between skills

In most games, you have skills which can be used on : self, allies, enemies, terrain. These restrictions are made for balance purposes, however I'd like a more interactive way of using skills. I feel that we don't need 136 skills with the same effect : making red bars go up or down. I would make a unique skill that you can use in combination with others to get the desired effect : aoe, damage or heal, used on self, allies, enemies, etc... This will offer more freedom than balance made on cooldowns, casting time, targeting, because if you look at games carefully, most skills are variant of basic skills balanced by a more conditional use, increased cost or effect.

The different skills are made is more for the reason of funcions, not balance.  Although what you are thinking is actually interesting.  Using the basic system, and in combinations create different effects.  It's a good idea, but the implementation would require a lot of adjustments.  Also many of the skills must fit the theme of the game, so that is also something to think about.

4. Range

In most games skills don't scale with range, you are in range or not. A increasing miss penalty would be nice to balance the use of ranged skills, along with a scale in power and cost.

The thing is, in most game, there is a set min/max so the computer knows how to calculate the skill.  But you could make it that it functions in - relatively logical ways - that with only a max to show if you can perform certain action, but if it's a range, it doesn't have a min range, but depends on the environment, it will affect the skill accordingly.  Also you could add that longer range = weaker power, more accurate.  shorter range = stronger power, less accurate.  Or however you feel fits your game, but most likely you will have a set maximum range for the players to know.

5. Party size

I would not balance skills with the size of the party. If you are outnumbered, it's up to your group to maneuver and build your way to victory. However there is a point when nearly instant kills occur, and this isn't fun at all. It may be necessary to slow the pace of the battle by reducing damage and healing, when there is too much fighters involved. How to balance such a dynamic variable, I don't know.

Hmm.. I'm not sure I get what you mean here.  You would not balance skills with the size of the party?  Isn't that true for every game?  A skill is a skill.  Some many benefit one person only, other may benefit the group in general, but a skill is a skill nontheless.  It won't use the size of the party to calculate the stats, since most group skills are buffs that increate individual's stats.

As for slowing the pace fo the battle, this would have some debate over it since if you want exciment, some would say the fast-action style combat are the way to go, but if you wish to slow it down, then some would feel that it isn't "exciting" anymore so...  Just some thoughts.

To Forcan.

That's good feedback, thanks. What I'd like to achieve is to create an open game with enough gameplay variation to cater to most players. The elite will play with the elite and the noobs with the noobs, I don't think that a battle without challenge is enjoyable, that's why I separate the players according to the experience they want from the game, a ladder system can do this. When you progress on the ladder you face opponents of nearly same level, so it isn't frustrating most of the time.

1. Twitch-based games are unplayable for players (not necessarily disabled) unable to master the gameplay. It is like using a tool to achieve a task. Since you had some help, you should have some penalty, but at least you can enjoy the game without worrying much about something like that.

2. I find the interface badly done in most games. What's the point of looking at your cooldowns all the time ? What's the point of looking bars when you're a healer instead of watching what is happening right now ? Why do we have to show numbers ? In a perfect interface you should have nothing more but the graphics... now you have a higher level of immersion. Even if it's pvp, immersion in the action is still important to get the adrenaline.

3. I think that you misunderstood how some devs balance skills in a game. I'll give you an example. Take a basic healing skill. It heals for 100 hp. Now make it unable to target self, it heals for 200 hp. Now make it half range, it heals for 300 hp. The less flexible a skill is, the more powerful it is at the same cost / casting time / recharge. However when you have a limited amount of skills, this becomes annoying. So instead of creating hundred of skills, let's combine the effects.

4. I agree, maximum range is needed. What I mean is that in games, you use a skill, and suddently beyond max range you can do nothing. This is bad because you have to look at your radar all the time, to stay in range. Furthermore, players having a good 3D vision and used to estimate distances accurately should have an advantage other players using radars.

5. Did you ever see how a skill in a 3v3 fight can be balanced, but overpowered in a 10vs10 fight ? Did you ever see how ranged attackers can focus fire a target to death, without any chance for it to be saved ? To prevent this either you reduce damage when the number of players increase, either you implement a weird mechanism preventing a certain amount of dps on a target.

To l2avism

I do not advocate money vs gameplay trade-off. WoW is a great game, we can't refute this fact. However its design is more suited for new players, so the next step is to make a game with a smooth learning curve towards high level competition in a balanced pvp environment.

Originally posted by Truthseeker

2. The interface

I'd like to not have to watch my skill bar or party panel at all, only the action matters. The problem is that no game have done this right yet, so I don't know what works or not. In a game with hundreds of skills it is hard to make meaningful animations for each skill, but I think that it can be done. Like I'm saying in point 3, we don't need that much skills in a game to begin with.