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Deadlobster 4/20/07 6:07:55 PM
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Novice Member
Joined: 12/18/06
Former SWG, Guild Wars and WoW. Vanguard aoc. Attempting to play the failure that is WAR OB EU |
Coming a little bit late to the argument. I have played swg, guiild wars (first one), wow and vanguard and as regards systems i preferred swg to the rest. Having single characters per account per server i felt made crafting systems much better. I could be a master armourer and still max out tka for some combat. Granted peiople changed there templates on a regular basis but most people enjoy diversity. As regards the uber template argument that doesnt realy stick for me, all you find in a class sytem is an larger percentage of the strongest pvp or pve class. Any former swg player wil remember with relish (hopefully) the debates on forums for that uber template and will remember will that there was never an agreed one. I would argue also that skill based systems can be easier for new players as veterans, although they have the money can only level a skill set to particular level.
Lastly although it may seem im plugging swg (woohoo) I spent 2 years or more with swg and only seven months with wow, less with gw and well vanguard isnt worth mentioning. I think everyone enjoys new skills, and its easier to level skill sets like swg and then changing, than leveling a 60+ Character and then doing the same again on an alt. |
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_Seeker 4/21/07 12:13:37 AM
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Novice Member
Joined: 7/28/04 |
Rymdkejsaren i agree. Well written Flute, great piece. Intresting post DamianoV. Very thorough. That website looks great. "It was simple, yes, but it worked SO well." - Heerobya Amen. I wonder what its like now. UO was a great game with its own flaws. I heard about the paladin skillset. Hopefully its not gone class based : /. I might try it out again. I was thinking about what realy kills the enjoyment in a game for me. I realised it was mainly to do with arrested or impeeded developement. Basically having the developement of my character delayed so that i would need to pay more money to get my character to a point where i could start doing what i wanted. Actually thats 2 things. Delayed developement. & Predetermined ending/ success. How boring. |
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Anofalye 4/21/07 4:52:45 AM
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Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/19/03
The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander. |
A game such as CoV falls into a "class" game, however, it has the main advantage of both systems!
You have a choice of primary, a choice of secondaries and these limit you as in a class, however, the combination you can make allow for great diversity. Also, it has alternatives power, so everyone can "taunt", or "Rez", or "TP a friend". Granted, taunt from the alternatives power will always be weaker then the taunt of a primary or secondary, the Rez effect is weaker then most rez in the game and so on (there is 1 rez which is weaker in a secondary that I can think of, yet, you can pick right away, no prime requirement, it is a filling power IMO for that line), however, it allow some diversity, best of both world IMO. Anyone can heal...but if you want to be a good healer, it take a real dedication to it, which is extremely close to Real Life in the sense that very few peoples get past a point without "becoming member of a class". |
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| - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation) |
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infrared1 4/21/07 11:50:09 AM
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Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/30/07
The reward for your ignorance will be death. |
What a great article. Alot of great feedback too. From where i sit and from what i've read here, this means that SWG pre-CU days was what everyone is looking for. A few mentioned grinding was forced in SWG. Wrong. It was the preferred method but there was tons to do to earn XP and get your skills up. I understand the delema that SOE had with the game. Too many professions to develope. Its seems they were consantly getting bombarded to fix different professions, and with 32, that was no small task. Imagine trying to add content to 32 different profs. Thats just crazy. Hands down SWG had the best balance and combination of skill and class based game play i've ever seen. Nothing i have played has come close to it. Obviously SWG pre-CU was a game ahead of its time. Don't get me wrong, I hate that SOE and LA didn't have the balls to see it though and sold out. I do believe that if the original SWG had remained in place and content was added and minor buggs fixed, SWG's community would be huge by now. Way more than the 300k or so that played the original pre-CU. Every game on the market today, and every one that follows will be a niche game. Think about it. |
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vajuras 4/21/07 1:26:28 PM
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Novice Member
Joined: 1/20/06 |
Originally posted by Boaz9
Excellent post I hope we will see a good "open" pvp system like this one day again. |
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Marchus 4/21/07 6:08:30 PM
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Novice Member
Joined: 8/26/04 |
I like hybrid systems, but I like when they lean more heavily towards skills than class. Makes PvP more interesting when you're not sure what to expect until you're already in it and gives a much better sense of individualism. Balance for smaller groups and raids if you think it'll make grouping more difficult and many seemingly unrelated problems will also suddenly solve themselves.
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Rymdkejsaren 4/21/07 6:22:19 PM
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Novice Member
Joined: 10/28/05
Pancakes. |
Ok, here is another stab at the debate.
People complain that skillbased systems are harder to balance. This is true, but then again, is perfect balance really what we strive for? I mean, if that is what we want, why not just put everyone in a room and give them a knife and ten hitpoints? Naturally that would get boring, you want diversity and choice. At the same time, you do not want your game to become too complicated, or new players get confused and give up. Most gamers have short attention spans, they expect to be blown away in the first 5 minutes of playing or they give up. So that is what the business caters to. In order to make the skillbased system easy to understand for the gaming plebs, you put the skills into groups and give the groups names like Warrior, Mage and Priest, so that it is completely clear what you are getting. We would not want to confuse anyone, now would we? So, basically, what is strived for is as much diversity as possible cast into an as simple mold as possible. This is a funky paradox that mmo developers have been fighting with for years now. To be quite honest, I do not think that the choice of skill or class is biggest problem in the mmo industry today. I think it is the fact that devs end up listening to people who incessantly whine because they got killed twice and it made them cry and SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE CHAIN LIGHTNING OF DHOOM POISON-SNEAK COMBO!!! The sad fact that the people that whine are the ones that are listened to, because they shout the loudest, and are simultanously the worst players (and thus get killed a lot). Games get ruined this way, as any experienced gamer can tell you (and not just the mmos *cough*cs*cough*). So, again, here's to hoping DFO comes out, and doesn't get carebeared by whiners. I'm sure I had something else to say when I started writing this post. Oh well. |
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Rymdkejsaren 4/22/07 7:58:08 AM
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Novice Member
Joined: 10/28/05
Pancakes. |
I've had an epiphany! People want simplicity, as I mentioned earlier, they do not want to wrap their tiny minds around huge skill systems the first thing they do when they start playing. That is why classes exist, so that it may seem simple at first, but in the end you still have to make more advanced choices (talents, specialisations etc).
So, here is my suggestion for a system that works both ways: Make a huge open-ended skill system, but then have your starting skills depend on the "Class" you pick, naming them appropriately i e "Warrior, Priest" and so on. See how easy that was? Now people think they are playing a classbased game, but after a while they realise they can increase any skill they want, making for lots of different combinations. By that time, they have a basic grasp on the game system, and are ready to make more advanced choises. Fooled you into thinking! 
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blotz 4/22/07 4:41:29 PM
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