Roma Victor

Originally posted by shane910

   I would say in a 2 hour play session a new crafter should be able to make about 2-3 QL 5 sets of armor.  And that would be doing nothing but putting it together working hard.  Not gathering or smelting that should be someone elses job.

   

See--there's the root of the problem. A lot of things in the armor-making process should be someone else's job.  The Master Armor Smith should be responsible for fitting the components together at the end of the process, while mining, smelting, shaping strips, procureing hide, et al should be the work of other guild members.

The game is designed for large guilds to produce items in an "assembly line" type of process.  A major problem is that people are trying to build everything themselves from scratch.  We can agree that the game desperately needs more players to pull off their economic model, but it isn't worth sacrificing the entire economic vision for a short term gain in  players.

Originally posted by Impacatus

  Anyways that should answer your question ...   I atleast answer each question presented I don't side step them all like yall do most the time, by talking trash and trying to get me riled up so my points get burried in petty arguments.

  Any other questions I will galdly answer but by now I know you understand what I am saying, this game could be much fun if it were balanced to be a game instead of just a historicaly accurate bore.

 

Our entire exchange was me trying to get you to answer one question, and you sidestepping it. 

Originally, I didn't have anything against you.  I genuinely wanted to understand your concerns, but all I got when I tried to get you to communicate them in a coherant manner was paranoid accusations and generalized whining.

I'm going to ask you once more, answer me the same way you answered that question:  In your mind, how much should a player be able to afford with a months' VERM?

If you still don't understand the question after this, I'll try explaining a different way.

 And I have answere that same stupid question 15 times or more already you just dont want to have to use you brain to put 2 and 2 together....

  But once more just for you... 

  If you play 2 hrs a night for a whole month say 30 days.  5k ses should buy you about 10-15 sets of that cheap QL 5 (200ses)armor I was talking about, and mabe 10 weapons(for combatants). That figures you die about once every other day and need to replace gear, may not even need to spend that much if you play smart. If you are a crafter it should buy you all the tools you will need for the month(shouldnt be much) and most of your materials, I am not crafting anymore after seeing these stupid times so you will have to average that yourself.

   Most of that is bound to be a little off but you get the main idea, dont act (once again) like you dont understand what I am saying.

  After all RB said 5k ses should last you for a month mabe 2 or 3.... and they didnt say if you dont spend any of it...or if you run arround naked...they said playing average times, you can enjoy it to the full.  Common sence here if you are playing like a freak 5-10 hrs a night buying materials and everything in sight it wont last but mabe a week or so but if you play like a person that has a life... it should last the ammount of time RB said it would.  And be able to enjoy the game to the FULL!!

  If you cant understand this then tell me how long you think a months verm (supposedly 5k ses) should last.(what all it should buy and times played ) like I did.

  Plus keep in mind I am looking at this from the perspective that people are actually playing(they arent atm) but imagine they are and we have lots of combat lots of lost gear and lots of demand for new gear.

Originally posted by Bahadur

Originally posted by shane910

   I would say in a 2 hour play session a new crafter should be able to make about 2-3 QL 5 sets of armor.  And that would be doing nothing but putting it together working hard.  Not gathering or smelting that should be someone elses job.

   

See--there's the root of the problem. A lot of things in the armor-making process should be someone else's job.  The Master Armor Smith should be responsible for fitting the components together at the end of the process, while mining, smelting, shaping strips, procureing hide, et al should be the work of other guild members.

The game is designed for large guilds to produce items in an "assembly line" type of process.  A major problem is that people are trying to build everything themselves from scratch.  We can agree that the game desperately needs more players to pull off their economic model, but it isn't worth sacrificing the entire economic vision for a short term gain in  players.

  Indeed that is much of the problem ... but it is not just gonna fix itself.  Steps have to be taken to balance it out for the players that are here.

   What I am suggesting will still allow the whole assembly line process for large guilds ... only in the higher QL items.   The lower QL 5-25  weapons(i suggested) and armor that dont last long and sell cheap are basicaly like templates that new crafters start making. once they get good at making those they can start making the much longer to make and much higher QL items.

 It dosent really take away from the game but allows new players to feel like they are accomplishing something... and not just burning wheels ... or time.

Originally posted by Maurizio

Originally posted by shane910

Originally posted by Maurizio

ROFLMAO are u out of your mind?? 2 to 3 ql 5 armor sets??? You must either be young and dont know any better or u are just not so bright up there... Dude in 2 hours u cant even shape chest peice, rememeber u have to keep heating and beating the crap out of the metal to get it to shape up...  

Sorry but if u are going to complain like this i think u are better off playing a fantasy game which indeed u will make well over 2 to 3 armor sets in 10 mins...


Originally posted by shane910

Originally posted by siredmond
Better question. How many sets of armour do you think a smith should be able to produce in a given time frame?

  I will answer your question. 

  I would say in a 2 hour play session a new crafter should be able to make about 2-3 QL 5 sets of armor.  And that would be doing nothing but putting it together working hard.  Not gathering or smelting that should be someone elses job.

  Now one QL 99 set should take the whole 2 hours and require high skills and high QL materials.(or even a little longer mabe up to 4 hrs) 

   I know you are gonna say, "but IRL it would take days or weeks...." but again this is supposed to be a game.  It has to be fun and somewhat rewarding or players are gonna leave like they already did.

   

  Also everyone says that the community is not large enough and thats why things are so crazily priced...  this would help that we would see alot more items being sold alot more crafters working and competition would drive the prices down.  Not to mention would fuel conflict for resources.

   And since you lose items on death or through use players would be going through twice and much gear and tools as they are now so it is not like it gona be stockpiled they will be getting used up ... and the majority of items would be lower QL so they really wouldn't last that long.

 

  Anyways that should answer your question ...   I atleast answer each question presented I don't side step them all like yall do most the time, by talking trash and trying to get me riled up so my points get burried in petty arguments.

  Any other questions I will galdly answer but by now I know you understand what I am saying, this game could be much fun if it were balanced to be a game instead of just a historicaly accurate bore.

 Did you even read what I posted... you are an idiot.   I never said 2-3 in 20 mins I said a whole 2 hour play session of non stop work.

  I also said I know how long they take IRL but this is a supposed to be a F'ing game....

It seems that u are the idiot becuase u cant even realize that  when i said " Sorry but if u are going to complain like this i think u are better off playing a fantasy game which indeed u will make well over 2 to 3 armor sets in 10 mins...  I was talking about in the fantasy game....

I understand its a game which is why u dont have to wait weeks and just rather a few hours which in turn normaly takes a day becuase u cant stay up for 5 hours so u go to bed and do whatever it is you  have to do in the morning weither it be work or school so in turn it does seem like it takes too long but really it doesn.... There is plently of other things to do in the game while waiting for that to finish..

   First off, sorry for calling ya an idiot.  I am just getting sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over and noone bothering to try and understand what I am saying plus got lots of RL shit happening at the same time(sure you know how it is , easy to bow up).

  I am actually a very friendly guy , would give ya the shirt off my back if it would help ya out. And in game I help most everyone I come accross that needs it. New players or if someone is being ganked whatever.  That why I joined as a roman wanted to help guard and keep players(crafters and all) safe.

  Now to your post...

I have tried everything I can think of in the game once... its not that fun to begin with just alot of standing arround and constant adding of items one at a time or picking them up .  It would be more interesting if mabe we have NPC's wandering arround to interact with on whatever level like bandits traveling merchants  or whatnot.

  And ok like you said it takes so long to craft that it rolls in to a day or two if you can only play like 2 hrs a night ... come on, you have to see that players arent gonna enjoy just logging in and working on a hut or whatever (remember it not alot of fun) and then log out and have to do it again the next day and the next. If their were lots of cool animations and mabe actual aiming involved with crafting it might be different but its it not you just stare and the same unchangeing screen and add items on at a time.

  And please name all these other things to do you mentioned, I have ran all over the map and their is nothing to do except if you are gonna be a hunter.. ATM.   Where are these fun things to do?

"...that same stupid question..."?  The validity of your entire argument rests on the answer to that question.  And no, what you said in your last post directed to me was the first thing you've given that comes close to an answer, the rest of the time you were just giving vague generalities.   

First of all, let me say that I'm sorry you're having real life problems, I can understand your attitude a little better if you're under alot of stress, and I hope that everything turns out better for you. 

Now that you've finally answered me, I'm willing to discuss it.  It seems you think that hamatas are basic equipment.  I hope you don'y think it childish of me to continue asking questions, but that's how you learn things.  If you provide all paying players enough to buy 15 hamatas per month, what happens to them after they're looted?  What about the people who don't lose them?  It seems like they would just keep piling up.  If everyone has more money than they know what to do with, an inflationary economy would occur.  If the items are unlimited and price controlled, there'd still be item inflation.  What will VERMers who happen to be successful looters or crafters spend all that money on?  What will barbarians, who don't have access to armour vendors spend it on?

I will say that I do think your idea of making the low quality items NPC sold and the higher one's crafted is a great idea.  If there is ever a time when a profession's vital equipment (spear and buckler for soldiers) was expensive enough to make the game unplayable, that would be an excellent way to remedy it.

Now you say that all the soldier's equipment should be easily affordable, enough to replace many times in one month.  If they are implented, would that apply to horses, chariots, triremes, palaces?  Is there anything you think should be difficult to get?  You say that most players don't like a challenge, but I disagree.  Many get frustrated when they fail, and ask for an easier time, but if they didn't want any challenge, then we wouldn't have games, just digital movies.

And there's the issue with crafters.   There isn't generally a point where you can say one can't use more furnaces, kilns, ovens or retting pits unless they have so many it's physically impossible to get to the last one before the first one's done.  How do you decide how many materials they need in a month?  If they have the time, tools, and crafting stations, they could churn out as many items as they want.

You asked how long long I think it should last.  I think the economy should decide that.  It doesn't matter if players are fighting with sticks and stones or onagers and ballistae, as long as everyone has the same oppurtunities.  The game is built around the idea of a virtual economy.  Players are supposed to depend on each other, and be free to make their own fate.  Two things are inhibiting that at the moment, our inability to produce animal parts, and the fact that there aren't so many professions and therefore less things to spend money on.  But I think that any attempt to plan the economy, except in the most extreme circumstances, takes away from the experience.  What we have here is the closest thing to a true, independant virtual world.  Taking that away in favor of making the game easier could do to RV what the NGE did to SWG.

I just don't think it's that simple.  There are many, many different factors to consider when talking about a major change like this, it's not something to be undertaken lightly.  You've clearly though about this a great deal, but isn't it possible there are areas and factors you forgot to consider?

I do really admire your passion.  I would greatly appreciate it if you could answer these questions.  Especially if you do it without childish insults.

_{For the record, here's why I didn't consider your responses, before now, a real answer:}

_{Picture someone going to a bakery to buy a pie. He makes his selection, and gives the vendor the amount on the label.    Vendor: That's not enough money. I'll need more.}

_{Customer: How much do you want?  Vendor: I want the fair price for an apple pie.}

_{C: How much is that?  V: Enough to pay for the materials and labor with some profit left over.}

_{C: Ok, just tell me how much that is, and I'll give it to you.  V: Geez, are you DENSE? I want THE FAIR PRICE FOR AN APPLE PIE.}

_{C: Ok, how much did you spend making the pie? How long did it take?  V: What do I look like, an accountant?}

_{C: You didn't even tell me how much of a profit you expect.  V: I should at least be able to run my bakery, pay myself a decent salary, and have some left over to expand my business.}

_{C: Well... there are other ways to make more money then raising prices. Why don't you fix up your storefront, and draw more people in?  V: Yeah, like I'm really going to spend hours repainting that thing one stroke at a time. Maybe if I had more labor and some machinery, but I can't afford that unless you give me the FAIR PRICE FOR AN APPLE PIE.}

_{C: How about cutting expenses? No one seems to like that flavor, why don't you stop stocking it?  V: I don't think you get how this works. I give you the PIE, you give me enough money to keep my business running. That's why I have this plan, where every January customers will sign up for a yearly plan, and get a year's supply of pies. They'll pay for 60% of it cash, 10% in store credit they'll get by returning their empty tins, 20% in labor by helping me clean my backroom...}

_{C: How much is a year's supply?  V: Enough to last for a year, based on peoples' consumption rates.}

_{C: But not everyone eats the same amount of pie.  V: It will last them for a year.}

_{C: All I want is one.  V: Then you'd better give me THE FAIR PRICE FOR AN APPLE PIE.}

_{C: What's wrong with the sticker price? That's about how much the other bakeries nearby charge.  V: What about all the bakeries throughout history that have gone out of business? If you don't pay us the fair price for our products, no one's going to want to run a bakery anymore.}

_{C: JUST TELL ME HOW MUCH YOU WANT.  V: Listen you moron, I already told you I want the fair price for an apple pie. Enough to pay for the materials and labor with enough left over to live comfortably, keep my business running, and be able to afford some additions. What about that is so hard to understand !?}

 Well to start, I loved the story.  It very much mimics our situation and also the games current state.

  Main reason I said it was a stupid question is because it is very much like the situation with the customer and the vendor.  Their are many variables some of witch I cannot account for thats why I had said a bunch of times I cant give ya a100% answer it has to be balanced by the devs useing a group of testers not just me...  all I can do is generalize and explain why.

   I dont think the hamata is everyday equipment but a crap version that a new smith made (QL 5-25 hamata) would be easy to attain if you are verming, because if you are verming you are not a slave or a poor person you should be considered by the game a average wealthy citizen.  That is if they want people to verm on a regular basis.

  As for the story If their were set prices on materails and scaled craft times in the world of RV their wouldnt be that problem...  the vendor would have prices on his wares low for the low QL and high for the high QL and the customer would already know the going prices based on those. The whole situation never would have happened. Everything is too up in the air in RV.

 _{C: Ok, how much did you spend making the pie? How long did it take?  V: What do I look like, an accountant?    Just like that, thats why we have crazy prices because a player said wow it took me 3 days to make this, gathering materials and crafting it I figure I should get about 10k ses for this one.   That player is not an accountant(or game designer) like he said he dosent have to think about all that he just knows it took him a long time to make and he wants to be compensated for that time.   He dosent have to think hey if I price this really high others might do the same, and if everyone sets high prices all arround them it is gonna run everyone off. Especially with the game having a radically new revenue system.  See he dosent think beyond his own loss and gains but a developer does or should...}

  _{They are supposed to be able to keep it in balance by modifying the value of verming like they said they could.  I have yet to see that happen, But I see high prices all over the place and nothing to stop them from going even higher.}

  _{Mabe it is just me but in a game where items cost RL money(and they do in RV) a $40 dollar item or more is unacceptable.} 

    _{This is what is really unacceptable to me their is no cap on how much ses you can buy per month so they got their own ebay gold sellers system in place, but at the same time $40 in verm is equal to 10k ses in game and that will buy you very little.  You would think that if in a months time you gave a game 1 game $40 they would be loving you but here its like nothing....nothing really to show for it especailly when you realize that everything you bought in game is not really yours and will be lost sooner or later.}

   _{They have a great set up for a game right now it just feels more like a scam... all I am saying is that I want it to feel more like a game.}