General Discussion

Originally posted by Endemondia
anything that breaks with the boring and simplistic mould of WoW has to be good. Guildwars is the undisputed master of pvp for a fantasy mmorpg so to try and out do them or copy any of the other pvp systems is pointless. Here is an original and unique concept that Turbine will make work. Much like with the evolution of D&D, LOTR will adapt to allow continuity. To continue the comparison, D&D is very different to the game that was released a year ago. So much so that I now play that more than any other mmorpg. However, while D&D has the best combat system around, it looks like LOTR will be back to the point and click combat and that is a real shame. Fighting is the key element of a fantasy mmorpg and to dumb down the combat is simply cloning existing systems which are deeply unsatisfying. If only Turbine had maintained a pioneering spirit with the combat then they would have hada game that will KO WoW and its ilk!

I get what your saying here...Innovation is good, copy catting is bad.

But is it really?  Would you consider every automobile created now to be copies of the first automobile?  Of course not, there are countless innovations since the originals first drive.  And yet they all have recognizable similarities.   The same holds true for nearly every product ever made..ok maybe not pet rocks but you get the picture. 

The point is to take the things that work and improve on them, sure try to innovate, but not to the point that your final product no longer resembles the original.  If you do that, you must in essence begin as the original for a new product line, and pray that your innovations were good enough to set your product apart as a successful pioneer and not just another casultiy along the long road of unsuccessful MMOs. 

DDO is most definatly in that position, it is in essence much closer to Guild Wars than any current MMO, and because of that it is lingering in a very unenviable position in the MMO marketplace.  Guildwars is free to play, DDO carries a subscription fee, so irregardless of an older, more mature and a culturally more influential IP DDO can only be considered a flop in the MMO marketplace.

I wouldnt say that Guildwars is the master of PVP I dont even consider it an MMO at all, more a 3d matching service and chat.  I pvp daily, and have done so for years and Guildwars isnt even a blip on my hard drive, I understand people like it, I simply dont.  I tried it but, big deal, little tiny teams in little tiny instances.

The question is whether or not innovation for the sake of innovation is good.  Turbine is trying very hard to stick to the "spirit" of the story.   Which prevents them from adding the evil side as player races.  This should be a no-brainer, and indeed, is to everyone except them apparently. 

The focus seems to be wrong.  They shouldnt be trying to capture the spirit of the story but the incredibly rich spirit of the WORLD.  They should be using the Silmarillion as thier main refrence and not the LoTR story.  But hey, its their perogative to destory yet another IP.

-Gooney

Hi Gooney I respect your opinion and 2nd it with reference to the silmirilion (and of course a big nod to The Hobbit!)

Macdonalds is the biggest food franchise im the world. Your argument seems to be that, because it is the most popular, all dining should take place in restaurants based on the Macdonalds concept. I will go out and spend £100 on a good meal. Is that $300 maybe? Once in a blue moon I will go eat at Macdonalds (WoW) but most of the time I go eat some one decent that looks, tastes and feels nothing like Macdonalds. Guildwars got voted the best mmorpg 2006. You may not like it and it may not be as popular as WoW but it is most definetly a better game currently - although the expansion done by WoW is better than either of the GW efforts my perosnal opinion there. Popularity does not a good game make. There are lots of communists in China but it does not mean communism is all that beneficial to the average Chinese person.

We can agree to disagree and I only would stop playing D&D and Project Entropia if a more interesting game comes along. LOTR looks to have a poor combat system but an innovative pvp system attracts me. It certainly got you interested too! The best thing about WoW is that it is the only decent game I can get more my mac laptop - which I hasten to add I rarely use!

I like your analogy about McDonalds and it holds out pretty true actually.

A game producer makes a game for a couple reasons... Actually only 1 reason but I like to believe that developers actually enjoy playing the games they create, I know thats not true but still I like to think that is Gamers making games for Gamers.

Unfortunately the above isnt true, its not, it is a rare dev that plays and an even rarer exec or money man.  Its all about the Big Mac.  They create games to make money.  Designers they hire hope that eventually; somewhere along the line they will have the oppertunity to create something that they just "know" will be a big hit, because it would be the game that they themselves would love to play.  So they keep it up, chasing their tails, creating game after game, slight itterations on the past.  Thats why so many games emulated EQ and now WoW, successful games will distill what works to create something that is even more enticing.

However, all of this game making is doing something else too, WoWs success also means that there are a greater number of people willing to pay to play a game.  More MMO addicts by the day, a propotion of those will seek more engaging and deeper worlds and game play.  Those are the ones who will fill up the niches of the future.

Turbines problem is that they KNOW what works, they also know that they cant create another WOW, after all WoW cost double-digit millions to make.  Not only the investment but WoW had a ready-made fanbase due to the extremely long life of Blizz-net, WC1-3, D2 and D2 etc.  The point is that WoW hit a market that already was predisposed to love thier game...because...they were already GAMERS.  This is the same reason that DDO and SWG for that matter have failed and been morphed beyond recognition.  Both were very old established, and very popular IPs,  and should have been a success if not for one itty bittly little problem...... neither had a proven, significant base of computer gamers. 

This is the problem that LoTR has.  Very popular IP, very restricted vision, a huge potential player base, but not necessicarily gamers.  In fact I would argue and I think history will prove that none of that guarantees success.  You see, youngsters today regard LoTR as an "old" story.  One that thier moms and dads read and enjoyed, and therefore isnt cool.

Which means that Turbine is shooting themselves in the foot to not focus on their realistic market segment... the 25-40 segement and adjust their game to be the complexity that that segment enjoys.

To succeed LoTR will have to give the more mature MMO gamer what they want, and that includes a world where they have more not less influence and more not less immersion.  Monster View is immersion breaking just in principle, you cant roleplay that principle.  The whole world has so much built in conflict that is simply not being capitalized on.

The story wasnt simply one of good versus evil, but one of conflict between races, goals and plans of both mortals and immortals.  The story itself in fact takes place during a lull in the common struggles, and makes clear a threat to all that must be opposed lest they loose even the little had.  It was written by a man who was living in a time of incredible upheaval in the world, great nations and peoples clashing in a titanic struggle of the likes that had never occured before... I imagine that he got to thinking about it and wondered...what if this had happened before...

-Gooney

Well if both AoC and WAR let me down then I just may try this game, but all I would do is get lvl 10 and do Monster Play :P

Originally posted by Gooney
I like your analogy about McDonalds and it holds out pretty true actually.

A game producer makes a game for a couple reasons... Actually only 1 reason but I like to believe that developers actually enjoy playing the games they create, I know thats not true but still I like to think that is Gamers making games for Gamers.

Unfortunately the above isnt true, its not, it is a rare dev that plays and an even rarer exec or money man.  Its all about the Big Mac.  They create games to make money.  Designers they hire hope that eventually; somewhere along the line they will have the oppertunity to create something that they just "know" will be a big hit, because it would be the game that they themselves would love to play.  So they keep it up, chasing their tails, creating game after game, slight itterations on the past.  Thats why so many games emulated EQ and now WoW, successful games will distill what works to create something that is even more enticing.

However, all of this game making is doing something else too, WoWs success also means that there are a greater number of people willing to pay to play a game.  More MMO addicts by the day, a propotion of those will seek more engaging and deeper worlds and game play.  Those are the ones who will fill up the niches of the future.

Turbines problem is that they KNOW what works, they also know that they cant create another WOW, after all WoW cost double-digit millions to make.  Not only the investment but WoW had a ready-made fanbase due to the extremely long life of Blizz-net, WC1-3, D2 and D2 etc.  The point is that WoW hit a market that already was predisposed to love thier game...because...they were already GAMERS.  This is the same reason that DDO and SWG for that matter have failed and been morphed beyond recognition.  Both were very old established, and very popular IPs,  and should have been a success if not for one itty bittly little problem...... neither had a proven, significant base of computer gamers. 

This is the problem that LoTR has.  Very popular IP, very restricted vision, a huge potential player base, but not necessicarily gamers.  In fact I would argue and I think history will prove that none of that guarantees success.  You see, youngsters today regard LoTR as an "old" story.  One that thier moms and dads read and enjoyed, and therefore isnt cool.

Which means that Turbine is shooting themselves in the foot to not focus on their realistic market segment... the 25-40 segement and adjust their game to be the complexity that that segment enjoys.

To succeed LoTR will have to give the more mature MMO gamer what they want, and that includes a world where they have more not less influence and more not less immersion.  Monster View is immersion breaking just in principle, you cant roleplay that principle.  The whole world has so much built in conflict that is simply not being capitalized on.

The story wasnt simply one of good versus evil, but one of conflict between races, goals and plans of both mortals and immortals.  The story itself in fact takes place during a lull in the common struggles, and makes clear a threat to all that must be opposed lest they loose even the little had.  It was written by a man who was living in a time of incredible upheaval in the world, great nations and peoples clashing in a titanic struggle of the likes that had never occured before... I imagine that he got to thinking about it and wondered...what if this had happened before...

-Gooney

I am quoting you so that people who missed this before get to see the heart of the problem. The games industry is driven by market forces/money and you clearly state the issues that Turbine faces. However WoW has paved the way for mmorpg to go the same way as Hollywood and because it is big money involved (and even bigger stakes - stats for game success is one in a hundred or worse - but that one big one floats all the turkeys)...I am sticking to my guns and assuming that Turbine have got the mature MMO gamer with D&D online and LOTR is a WoW clone with simplistic gaming mechanics (as is WoW) to pull in the Macdonald eaters of mmorpg. Tolkien has been successfully recylced to the next gen by the cinema Trilogy while Harry Potter is breeding the generation after that for Middle Earth. Check out the scene from Clerks 2 when there is the Star Wars versus LOTR bitch fight in the fast food joint. The cultural references are poignant to the relevant generations. I am still liking what you say Gooney and even more, how you say it, but you have to agree with me on this one that Turbine are making a WoW 2 but with a USP IP tailor made for bringing in a big big market that could dethrone Macdonalds...cough ..i mean WoW!

It is nice to see them try this.  People have been asking for the ability to play monsters for a long time. IIRC, people were asking for this in the pre-alpha DDO forums in the form of vampires and werewolves. Isn't there a roman game that has afterlife play in it?

Anything which adds to game play and is fun is good to have.

I have a blast playing a monster - I think it is quite unique and look forward to spending many hours eating all those nasty hobbits that dare cross my path. 

Does the monster take up one of your regular charecther slots, or is it completely different?