Originally posted by Tkyn

 Think this is my first post here, though Ive been lurking  a good while.

First off, I think there is a very high chance of me buying the lifetime scrip. I like mmorpgs and LoTR. Yeah, Im a nerd. Sooo?

 

Now, I didnt see any mention of this. So here goes my opinion on the pricing scheme. As well as I can tell from friends,boards, and so-on MANY people who tried DDO played only for the 30-day period or not even that long (myself included). Im willing to bet Turbine took an absolute beating on that game. Im not a numbers person by any means but if that many folks bailed before Turbine ever got a single 14.99 sub fee from them, It would be a wise decision on thier part to grab $199 up front for lifetime...than take a chance and possibly never even see a $14.99 sub.

In short, I think its more about finance,than "giving" something to the player base.

 

Well last time i saw, DDO had about 80-100k subs.. i mean thats not bad. Also they did more then that on box's i think they sold initialy like 400k... I think DDO will out live a lot of current mmos and the game has goten better... bottom line, in terms of money i dont think its a failure...

Originally posted by wyzwun  

Well last time i saw, DDO had about 80-100k subs.. i mean thats not bad. Also they did more then that on box's i think they sold initialy like 400k... I think DDO will out live a lot of current mmos and the game has goten better... bottom line, in terms of money i dont think its a failure...

MMORPGs have finally entered the mainstream gaming market.  Post-WoW they will all be judged compared to other PC games like Myst and Civilization and Diablo.    DDO's numbers might have been all right for a first generation MMORPG but the times have changed.   DDO was mediocre at best, maybe not as bad a failure as Matrix Online or Dark and Light, but certainly not a success.

Still it is good to see Turbine experimenting and trying something innovative.  It will be interesting to see if this new model works or not.

Originally posted by DemonOvrlord

Originally posted by wyzwun  

Well last time i saw, DDO had about 80-100k subs.. i mean thats not bad. Also they did more then that on box's i think they sold initialy like 400k... I think DDO will out live a lot of current mmos and the game has goten better... bottom line, in terms of money i dont think its a failure...

MMORPGs have finally entered the mainstream gaming market.  Post-WoW they will all be judged compared to other PC games like Myst and Civilization and Diablo.    DDO's numbers might have been all right for a first generation MMORPG but the times have changed.   DDO was mediocre at best, maybe not as bad a failure as Matrix Online or Dark and Light, but certainly not a success.

Still it is good to see Turbine experimenting and trying something innovative.  It will be interesting to see if this new model works or not.

Theres an old saying in football "everyone is happy when there winning"

I fell that no matter what price point you use, it just doesnt mean anything. As long as you have a great product, thats all that really matters. All this other stuff is null unless LotrO is a great product.

IMO Lotro will be the best PVE mmorpg, We still need things like housing and more types of character AA but im sure that will come soon.

No one has ever questioned Turbines skill but yet all there past games have failed for so many reasons. Bottom line, theyve learned a ton... and it shows. Its really clear that Turbine knows what there doing, that Lotro is a great game... when i play a game like Vanguard, its very clear that those devs dont have a freakin clue...

The worst thing gonig against turbine is ... well there Turbine. I myself can see that there great but to that poor soul who bought that AC2 expansion... no such luck lol.

Originally posted by buckeyefog
It will be interesting to see if this applies to expansions also. Maybe the catch for founders who bought the lifetime subscription will be to charge some monthly fee for playing the expansions. Interesting idea from Turbine any way you slice it... Buck

Incase nobody has replied to this on the expansions all you have to do is BUY the expansion and you don't have to pay monthly.  Hope that cleared that up :).

With pricing plans being discussed in the OP I'm surprised that the Guild Wars model isn't mentioned.  No monthly fees at all and it seems to be working for them as the game is still going strong.  Personally at the time I bought GW because of this and although I played it a few months it wasn't really the game for me in the end.

Also, I don't believe I'm about to say this, DnL had some interesting ideas around pricing as well.  As with all the other good ideas they got lost in the crap implementation of their game.

Originally posted by wyzwun

Originally posted by Endemondia

Originally posted by JaredVerant

Endemondia,  I am currenlty in Closed Beta, however the NDA was lifted recently so I'll give you a little feedback.

Combat in LOTRO is currently reasonable similiar to WoW (and indeed any current MMO) in that basic attacks are enhanced and supported by a variety of click-to-activate special attacks that do more damage, cause bleeding, stun effects etc

For example, in the Hunter class - using a 'Barbed Arrow' causes bleeding (DOT) - which can be left  to bleed - or you can use another that capitalises on the bleeding effect by a sudden large damage effect, but which cancels the bleeding.

One thing that is different is that attacks seem to 'queue' - but you cannot see this queue at present - which mays that you do not - or possibly cannot - react to the NPC's attacks in real-time as such (due to the fact that you may have already queued up a couple of attacks).

Combat 'feels' quite visceral and satisfying - though is not perhaps yet to the standard of visual and aural excellence of WoW's.  (Forgive this comparision but I do feel that WoW is a premier yardstick to measure against in terms of polish, even if you do not like the game).

Regarding comparing it to DDO's combat all I can say this is: (and this may be a deciding factor!)

I managed all of about 5 minutes in DDO's world.  I thought the environment was fundamentally unconvincing and unimmersive.

I have been in BETA in LOTRO for over a week and I have very positive feelings towards this game which is remarkable polished and robust even it this (relatively) early stage. 

There are few MMO's in actual retail existence that compare to the polish of the BETA version of LOTRO.  Whilst it has some way to go in terms of WoW's engine scalability and graphical polish - it is shaping up very well indeed.

 

 

 

this comes as a bitter disapointment. The combat system used in WoW is among the poorest on offer and I was hoping Turbine would continue the good work used for D&D. Point and click requires very little skill while D&D offers ability to roll out of way, block with shield or weapon, time attacks, jump etx. Having just purchased the game I am now having 2nd thoughts...

 

Thats all wrong. LotrO offers a combat system where, your always doing something, IE your never waiting for cool downs. Not many mmos do this. Also LotrO steals a little from FFXI's Skillchain system, IE the SJ system. People need to really get there facts straight before the post miss information like above.

WE are wondering off the thread now but I appreciate all the information I am getting from those who have been in the beta. Cool downs are an acceptable way to balance out stronger skills/special attacks etc. Further more, when some one tells me WoW is the yard stick by which all combat systems should be measured I shudder. I quite enjoy WoW but it is using a combat system marginally better than EQ and most Asian imports, less balanced than GW,  and lacking any requirement other than to point and click on an enemy and punch keys to create attacks!  Combat systems in sci-fi mmorpg require you to target manually while D&D allows you the pleasure of doing this. Further more Wyzun played D&D for five minutes. Surely a metaphor for not too long, so having not experienced a combat system better than WoW I think, like many online gamers, ignorance is bliss . I now suspect that Turbine's marketing strategy will have LOTR for the dumbed down masses and the fresh blood to the market (new gamers brought in by the Tolkien franchise) while D&D will be for the more refined gamers. I will probably be accussed of snobbery here, and one man's mutton is another man's lamb, but I get the increasing feeling, even more so when i hear the implementation of the SJ system, that the combat will be weak. I hope I eat my own words when I experience it first hand - and maybe the other elements of the game design will counter balance a combat system weaker than WoW (omg...that takes some doing!)

well it is definitly selling some pre orders

EBgames/ Game Stop #1 http://www.ebgames.com/default.asp?sect=1278

Best Buy #10 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat99100050041&type=category

Amazon.com it is at # 5 http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/229575/ref=pd_ts_vg_nav/104-2518171-8849567

This is still with 2 months left before release and looking at the Amazon/Best buy figure it looks as if it attracting a lot of the more casual crowd along with the old school MMORPG crowd. Considering a lot of people  are waiting until the public open beta to buy I think it is safe to say that Turbine has a genuine hit on their hands here.

 

"Further more, when some one tells me WoW is the yard stick by which all combat systems should be measured I shudder."

Endemondia , It's not often I get annoyed!

If I take the time to write an honest and hopefully helpful response to a query posted, and I feel I have some information to offer - I would appreciate it if you actually read what I have said!

I did not say WoW's combat was the yardstick to measure quality by.  What I said was this:

 "(Forgive this comparision but I do feel that WoW is a premier yardstick to measure against in terms of polish, even if you do not like the game)."

Furthermore, I mentioned the quality of WoW's combat only in terms of visual and aural 'feel', not it terms of complexity or thought required.  As it stands, LOTRO's combat does not require a great deal of thought, at least at lower and mid levels.

For me, the only MMO that offers any true sense of skill is Planetside, but that's by the by as clearly it is skill rather than character/RPG based.

The rest of your post is also patronising, Endemondia - I mentioned '5 minutes' as an indication of how little I thought of DDO, obviously it was much longer.  I have vast experience of MMO titles dating back to UO.

Also, I am a 36 year old father of two.  I am neither ignorant, unrefined or simplistic as your yes, snobbish, latter comments suggest.

I would like to see you re-address your comments, as this has been a disappointing introduction to the MMORPG.COM forums for me.

 

 

 

 

 

How is this innovative? A business exist to make money. They aren't looking to do any favors. You think they are offering this deal out of the goddeess of their hearts? They are low on funds and need some quick cash. Maybe they are worried about word of mouth.
Why pay 200 for 4 months of content?

well as far as the pricing options they are offering, I think they are great. Not saying I will buy this game or not yet though. Thats kinda the problem with betas for me. I have been through all the content this game currently has to offer more times than I care to remember.  the More hardcore players will max out within 2 weeks of play then having nothing left but a weak crafting system and PvMP.  Even at the highest levels the combat is drab. no matter what character you play you always end up using the same skills in the same sequence over and over.  most of the quests take lest time than the travel time to get to them and seems extremely repetative. There are the epic/book quests that keep you moving and somewhat immersed in the story line.  now as far as comparing it to wow....I personally hate everything about wow and will not go into my issues with it here.  I still beta LoTRO and play it almost daily mostly because of the friends I have made and the great community, not the game.

I am really glad to see the marketing dept at Turbine finally step up.   In the past Turbine has not shown any sense of urgency for their games assuming that they would do well.  This plan is designed to get it rolling out of the gate.  This pre order deal is very smart.   It allows fans of the game that were going to get it on launch day regardless an even better deal.   For people on the fence it should push them over because you can get the game and pay a $9.99 monthly free vs $14.99 for the time that you decide to play.    The lifetime fee is very smart as it gives Turbine alot of upfront money to help pay off the venture capital used to develop the game.   Remember Turbine is a private company that does not have to answer to shareholders and with all the revenue being generated, creditors.   They should be able to use all this cash to invest in their other games as well.

Originally posted by Endemondia

WE are wondering off the thread now but I appreciate all the information I am getting from those who have been in the beta.

Jared, I am happy you are younger than me and have one more child but it is true ...we are a long way off this thread! If I sound like I am patronising you then forgive me for being older than you - If you feel I misquoted you then your anger and more in depth explanation should make us even. Of course if you come back to D&D any time soon I am always up for a dual! }:) By the way that Planetside sounds interesting. Is it anything like Project Entropia which feels like a first person shooter mmorpg?

Originally posted by Endemondia 

I now suspect that Turbine's marketing strategy will have LOTR for the dumbed down masses and the fresh blood to the market (new gamers brought in by the Tolkien franchise) while D&D will be for the more refined gamers. I will probably be accussed of snobbery here, and one man's mutton is another man's lamb, but I get the increasing feeling, even more so when i hear the implementation of the SJ system, that the combat will be weak. I hope I eat my own words when I experience it first hand - and maybe the other elements of the game design will counter balance a combat system weaker than WoW (omg...that takes some doing!)

Interesting.  I guess your lamb is my mutton. lol

I don't know much about LOTRO's combat, but comparing it to D & D online, which I did play for a month or two, I would have reached the opposite conclusion. (ie.  DDO's combat is for the masses)  lol. In my view, having the player's "twitch" (for lack of a better word) skills introduced into the game, it necessarily reduces the RP aspect of the game, because the character's combat skills, not the player, not the players should determine the outcome.  The less RP the game is the less refined and mass market it is to me. 

(FWIW, While I wasn't a big fan of DDO's combat system, that's not why I left. I didn't like the essentially all instanced nature of the game world.  I more interested in sandbox/virtual worlds and DDO seems to be the antithesis of that).

I think the opportunity just to pay a one time fee and never have to worry about changing credit cards or forgetting my "secret code" when I want to take a break is wonderful. Price is right also, same as 13 months of 15 dollars a month, or 8 months of SOE's station pass. I think I will easily get 13 months worth of play out of the game considering all the expansions they are planning.

BTW for those who want to ralk about combat there is a nice thread on that over at the LoTRO forums. No need to derail this one.

I personally think that the world of Tolkien is too beautiful and fascinating to be used for increased combats, the main stress should be on roleplay.

And back to the topic: I personally would probably buy the lifetime subsciption at once if the game wasn't from Turbine. When I think of the fate of Archlord *shudders*...
I love the game so far but I don't want to risk that in three months more and more players leave disappointed and the community shrinks so much that I have to leave too. I pretty much think I will preorder but without the lifetime option

Originally posted by Settingsun
How is this innovative? A business exist to make money. They aren't looking to do any favors. You think they are offering this deal out of the goddeess of their hearts? They are low on funds and need some quick cash. Maybe they are worried about word of mouth.
Why pay 200 for 4 months of content?

People paid $179.88 for 12 months of WoW which only had about 3 months of content (explain the players with 5-8 lvl 60s forever).

I don't believe it's a low on cash thing... Turbine (like them or not) has the LOTR license... fans are going to play it because it is LOTR whether it's good or bad (look at the die-hard SWG fans still playing after Sony butchered that).

IMO this lifetime plan was created for the die-hard LOTR fans only. The average MMO-hopping gamer was not targeted for this deal.

Not all game companies can be Blizzard so they have to come up with something unique to reward loyalty.




(BTW, ever calculate Blizzard's revenues? 6 Million people paying $49.99 for the original game and $14.99 per month for over 2 years before the first expansion came? I can't understand how with that revenue there are not 5 expansions by now and guaranteed server stability. Blizzard is the devil and knows they have their gamers addicted... that's why there hasn't been more available for this game. Geez, the first and only expansion saw people hitting the lvl 70 cap in 2 days... Gonna be a long 2 years at lvl 70 until the next expansion...)

Originally posted by Endemondia

WE are wondering off the thread now but I appreciate all the information I am getting from those who have been in the beta. Cool downs are an acceptable way to balance out stronger skills/special attacks etc. Further more, when some one tells me WoW is the yard stick by which all combat systems should be measured I shudder. I quite enjoy WoW but it is using a combat system marginally better than EQ and most Asian imports, less balanced than GW,  and lacking any requirement other than to point and click on an enemy and punch keys to create attacks!  Combat systems in sci-fi mmorpg require you to target manually while D&D allows you the pleasure of doing this. Further more Wyzun played D&D for five minutes. Surely a metaphor for not too long, so having not experienced a combat system better than WoW I think, like many online gamers, ignorance is bliss . I now suspect that Turbine's marketing strategy will have LOTR for the dumbed down masses and the fresh blood to the market (new gamers brought in by the Tolkien franchise) while D&D will be for the more refined gamers. I will probably be accussed of snobbery here, and one man's mutton is another man's lamb, but I get the increasing feeling, even more so when i hear the implementation of the SJ system, that the combat will be weak. I hope I eat my own words when I experience it first hand - and maybe the other elements of the game design will counter balance a combat system weaker than WoW (omg...that takes some doing!)

Agreed.  This is off-topic but I thought I'd respond anyway...

We'll have to agree to disagree on combat systems.  I thought DDO had some innovative ideas but introduced player "twitch" skills into the game way too much (over character skills).  MMOs (except a few like Planetside) are supposed to be RPGs after all (not FPSs).  The player skill in MMO combat should be knowing when to attack, when to defend, and when to switch targets (not how well they can twitch).

I don't think Turbine marketing has any such designations as dumbed-down or mass-market.  They have two good licenses (D&D and LotR) and are trying to design and market games around those licenses.

I played DDO from Alpha 0 (Aug 2005 iirc) through launch and kept trying to improve the game.  What killed it for me though was not the different mechanics (combat or otherwise) of DDO vs other MMOs.  What killed it for me was Turbine making DDO less and less like D&D with every patch - some fairly major changes from PnP D&D were definitely required but they made many unnecessary changes for DDO (having a knowledge of D&D rules should not be a hindrance to playing a game called DDO).  I and others tried telling them so during Alpha and Beta but felt like we were ignored.  I was not surprised when it was not a huge success (and did not purchase the game).  I really wanted to like it (even trying the 14-day trial a few months ago) but could not.  If it wasn't supposed to be D&D, maybe I would have liked it better.

More on-topic...

I've been playing LotRo for the last 1-2 months and am much happier with it.  I will probably pre-order it but will probably not get the lifetime subscription.  I'd rather pay $9.99/mo than bet that LotRO will hold my interest for more than 20 months (the break-even point) as I've played very few MMOs that long (EQ is the only one so far but CoX and EVE may hit that longevity of play for me).

I enjoy the feel and atmosphere of the game.  The quests, combat, etc are similar to many other MMOs but they mostly fit the feel I want in a LotR MMO.  I tend to judge games by what they are trying to be (licensed IP games need to feel like the IP, general genre, etc) and tend not to compare games across categories too much (other than general mechanics).

The only things I'm not real happy with feel-wise are the Minstrel and Lore-Master classes.  The Minstrel could fit with LotRO use of morale rather than health but it feels too offensive (it was the easiest class to blast my way through the early levels).  The Lore-Master feels too much like a mage which should not exist - I'm not sure why Turbine felt they had to introduce this class.

Originally posted by Anawiel

I personally think that the world of Tolkien is too beautiful and fascinating to be used for increased combats, the main stress should be on roleplay.

And back to the topic: I personally would probably buy the lifetime subsciption at once if the game wasn't from Turbine. When I think of the fate of Archlord *shudders*...
I love the game so far but I don't want to risk that in three months more and more players leave disappointed and the community shrinks so much that I have to leave too. I pretty much think I will preorder but without the lifetime option

The quests do provide alot of role-play feel (and you can add alot more by interacting with other like-minded players).

What does Turbine have to do with Archlord?  I agree Archlord was a dud but it was from Codemasters and not Turbine.  Turbine screwed up DDO but that is doing much better than Archlord.

I don't foresee players leaving LotRO in 3 months.  At least for me, I see the game holding my interests for up to a year (estimate based on amount of content I think there seems to be) - longer if an expansion comes out.