World of Warcraft

Originally posted by Harafnir

What these kiddies always fail to realize and never will realize.  is that "their" developers of "their" game.... They play WoW. A lot... All of them. And learn game design from it. Its funny, but in a sad way...

 I think what you're looking for is "copy" not "learn game design from". Originality is a long way off in game design, and with the corporate side of the industry pushing for numbers like WoW has, nobody will risk an  untested type of game. Hence why I play whatever I feel like playing at a given time, and stay out of the "WoW Killer" arguments for the most part.

On topic, I think everyone hates WoW because it's got a huge following with plenty of addicts who are generally louder of mouth and larger in number than the smaller following of addicts every other game has. It makes them angry. And overall, it's really not all that superior to those games, more like on level with them, but its success is being used as a standard that effectively oppresses everything new that comes out =/.

I'd have to say Guild Wars beats WoW, and Guild wars is a free MMO.

WoW is just another cookie cutter game, coping the WarHammer Series and graphics, that look horrible anyways IMHO. The only thing I can't complain about is that WoW will work on almost any system, that's most likely why they also have so many subscribers.

Go to work.

Originally posted by Ismodred
For me its easy to sum up:

Blizzard does not care about individual customers

Expansion on statement:
If you are one of 12,000 players like AC your voice and concerns are heard.
If you are one of 120,000 like EQ you might get heard.
if you are one of 1,200,000 like WOW you don't matter.

But I do't wan't nothing you says.. well
what about back packs that look like animal x?
what about housing?
what about customizabl pets?
what about dye-able armor?
what about x?
what about y?

it doesn't matter because there is 1.1 million guppies that will eat whatever blizzard gives to them
becuase they don't know any better.

Blizzard is 300 pound gorrilla because of all the new people they brought into the game but
it is those same numbers (7 million subscribers x $15.00/month = $105 million per month)
that make them not want to change anything.

You think that the new expansion made the elite armor from the mainland obselete by accident?
no no.. its not. they will now sell 7 million copies @ $50 ($350 million for those keeping track) of
the expansion because if your going to play WOW you need those new LEET items to keep up with
the Wangs next door.

Hey but in the end its your money and your fun.. (i canceled my account last year and won't be back).

Hahahaha!

I love it when people bring out the "Blizzard doesnt care" and "Blizzard makes sooo much money" crap.

I find it interesting that you refer to ignoring idiocy Kirin and then take party in one of the largest deluges of it that I've seen on this forum.  My opinions come from playing GW for myself with my wife. 

You assert that Guild Wars is story driven?  In what way?  That it has a pointless introduction scene which transitions to the collapse of the world as result of some warring monster tribe?  That is where the story begins and ends.  The rest of the odds and ends quest they will do to lvl up do not reflect an continuing sotry, they reflect being in a world with a history as a backdrop.

Guild Wars is cookie cutter in that in no real way does it express differences from the games who borrowed the Lineage 2 engine.  It seperates itself from the core engine through its different skills (a lot are just run of the mill).  Aside from that its just a point and click mess.

You don't have to grind in GW?  Eh?  You most certainly have to quest to receive XP to lvl up.  WoW offers the exact same grinding alternative.  If WoW's focus is on grinding in light of the reliance on quests then GW is as well.  GW's quests run out quickly which forces you to move to another area to level up.   The GW questing was slapped together.


I too have played Lineage 2 and come to the conclusion that GW and it have similiarities in many areas.  Considering that GW was created from the Lineage 2 engine I'm not sure why you're so shocked by this.

1.  They are reliant on fixed location combat systems which revolve around a few select number of usuable PVP moves.

2.  Their pvp systems are loaded with problems which reliate to the aforementioned reliance on sedintary PVP; Casters have tremendous advantages over melee thusly melee is a dull and unrealistic experience.  In this Lineage 2 and GW have much in common.

The systems which govern GW and Lineage are both highly reliant on casting times and are highly simplistic in nature.  They both show little effort in applying server position predictions and thusly lack action.

Reaching the lvl cap.  For me GW reguired more grinding than did WoW.  Being that GW is free its a far more simplistic game and lacks a good deal of content.  WoW on the other hand provides you with developed quests that supply not only XP but items and gear as well.  In short they were far more rewarding than GW's questing.

You notion of what happens at the lvl cap brings us back to the issue of uninformed idiocy.  In WoW you don't have to Raid grind for anything.  As a function of TBC and the Honor System players can acquire items, weapons and gear from PVP and PVE.  PVPing/PVEing for REP/Honor is a breeze and provides you with what you want through various avenues of play.  In Guild Wars what do you do when you hit the cap?  At this point the game is nothing more than a constant repetition of the game's unispired PVP.  In lineage 2 all that is left is fight in the Arena.  Though in Lineage 2 you have more skills to work with.

You complain about crafting as a grind?  You don't have to craft if grinding a problem.  Its a grind to force you to work for what you need rather than just providing it to you?  Unlike GW, WoW has more developed content built around a certain amount of work.  GW doesn't offer much and allows you to create a character at the lvl cap and just pvp all day - the only point of the game.

Of course WoW's endgame will effect PVP better gear often does.  Being that the game is more complex than GW which is based solely around PVP and lacks developed PVE one has along to buy or grind for the best gear available and then PVP all day.  If you grow bored of pvping all the time then there's nothing else for you.

Originally posted by KirinShadow

Originally posted by Harafnir

What these kiddies always fail to realize and never will realize.  is that "their" developers of "their" game.... They play WoW. A lot... All of them. And learn game design from it. Its funny, but in a sad way...

 I think what you're looking for is "copy" not "learn game design from". Originality is a long way off in game design, and with the corporate side of the industry pushing for numbers like WoW has, nobody will risk an  untested type of game.

If it is copied once or twice, then its "copy". When it is changing the evolution and design for years to come... then its "learning design". Good or bad, WoW is a classroom, and developers sit there as students right now, it has and will have an impact on every desicion in every game that will be developed in the next several years. That is not merelly "copy"

I dont support and I am not against... Its just an observation.
 

Someone's missing the point. Yeah, I have 8 PvP skills.. FOR THIS FIGHT. I can come back with a completely different skillset (chosen from hundreds)  within minutes, or less, on the same character. This is unlike WoW, where you have some 30-40 skills total, and two different experiences would be where you put your bonus points to enhance the skill effects. It is also unlike Lineage, where you're stuck in one set of skills you chose from the skill/class tree.

Secondly, take it from a mage, Warriors, assassins, and rangers have kicked my ass to high heaven and back on several classes, and I've seen 'em do it to all kinds of mages with ease. Mages do not have an advantage in GW. 

Where's the point and click mess? Most people I know almost exclusively play with their keyboard... even for targetting and everything else.

When I say storyline, What I'm referring to is the Mission system. you COULD explore a significant chunk of the world on foot, but you're much better off (and you participate in an actual story, unlike what you're claiming) doing missions. They're zones of their own in which you complete specific objectives alongside storyline characters and watch scenes that advance the tale as you lead the Ascalon Refugees (using prophecies campaign as an example).

At endgame in Guild Wars you're done, Go PvP if you want to, otherwise just don't play. 

I've been pointing out repeatedly that LII and WoW both work on the carrot-on-a-stick principal. Get your players addicted to the new shinies they get with each accomplishment, and make sure there's plenty of timesink that quickly becomes a second job between them and said shinies. Works like a charm, and generates addicts like yourself, who staunchly believe a game must dominate hours of their life per day, and see no faults in the game they play.  Therein lies the difference. GW ends, it's over, you can try out different characters if you want, but otherwise do what is fun for you.  Heck, go play WoW, I've done that too. Had some fun with a Druid. Whatever floats your boat.

Quit trying to argue with me like I'm a GW fanboy claiming it's better than WoW, I'm not.  I'm just pointing out that you clearly know nothing about it, and just like the hundreds of other hopelessly addicted people doing just like you are now, are insisting that no other game is allowed to have merits of their own.  Don't think I don't recognize the syndrome, I was just like you once, and it took a good bit of time for me to see things as they really are.

-Cheers, and good luck on the eventual recovery. Remember, acceptance is the first step.

Harafnir:
I agree that it's a classroom, The simplistic system and clear forethought are really the big lessons .The lessons lie in their skillful use of a system that is friendly to casual players and previous non-gamers and still pulls off the carrot-on-a-stick tactic swimmingly for the players who get hardcore hooked.  

30 pages later:

I forgot to post something awhile ago 3 pages back, about the community. I hate the fact that players curse you out, stalk you, talk Scheiße, then you fight back and get reported to a GM. I told a GM what the hell? I remember back in the day of ShadowBane you do NOT talk trash if you we're a lesser guild with like one castle. Say something slick to the wrong guy and 5 minutes later you got a Bane stone outside your town and 70 gung-ho pissed off guys are waiting to crumble your city.

I wont lie the GM's did enforce rules, like temp bans and such but they should have extremely harsh penalties for crap like that, week ban you argue and the GM is in a bad mood, two weeks! Hell perma-ban their account and CC (or their mommy's CC for that matter). Oh well I don't play WoW anymore but like I said, I don't hate WoW just the community is absolute garbage.