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News Editor Garrett Fuller and Staff Writer Derek Czerkaski sit down to discuss the issue of Traditional fantasy races.
You can read the whole debate here. Cheers, |
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VideoXPG
 Novice Member
Joined: 1/13/06
"Human stupidity knows no bounds" ~Albert Einstein |
I am curious about the Spider thing. Concerning the whole band of humans against a small group of them, what would stop the majority of players from just being spiders? Such as the majority of players being Alliance over Horde in World of Warcraft.
Making a game mechanic especially with such a biased, 1-way view on a 1-on-1 combat situation is a formula for disaster. Even with games such as Warhammer that focus on a large scale war effort, there is still a sense of individual accomplishment and 1-on-1 PvP, at least that is what many of the previews have been hinting at. The other issue with going crazy with making new races is the idea of being able to relate to them as humans. Humaniod races are easy to relate to, which is what makes them so popular. Even if they may be a color switch or a re-skin, Orcs are Green Humans with probably better strength, Elfs are taller and better with Magic, the whole nine yards. The game, Shadowbane had many strange and "out there" races, even some races that had wings and could fly. Although it didn't really make much of a difference in gameplay at all. Especially for a game to be played by thousands of players, any "dominant" race that may have an unfair advantage will be exploited. I still like the idea, but I don't see personally how it could make a significant difference in a new kind of gameplay experience. 
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I would love to see new races with much more varied abilities being introduced, would give a whole new perspective when choosing one game over the other, and would likely give developers a much broader basis for competition when trying to win over gamers from the start.
The problem i see is the balancing issue, already there are huge arguments over differing levels of power between classes and races, and adding another dimension would add significant workload onto developers. |
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Thony
Novice Member
Joined: 1/02/07
"Its not "HOW" something is written but its "WHAT" someone has written" |
This is where Star Trek Online can stand out, i do not actualy know if it is going to be possible but if it is then i think that ip can bring forth many different races tho still somewhat familiar because of the movies/tv serie and what else but still their should be alott to choose from and make them destinct towards other classes. Klingons, humans, andorians, talaxians, romulan, you name the whole STAR TREK universe can be one heck of a game if they really take their time and work it out so that it really become Star Trek Universe and not just a episode feeling. Also would like to see a real WW2 mmorpg , not like "WW2 Online" but more like BF1942 style graphics with every mmorpg feature possible, meaning all sorts of ranks(duh!) and their are many proffesions that can be taken. So this isn't really about races but i think it can also make a difference if people are getting tired of fantasy based mmorpg, tho you might also have those that are sick of WW2 games, but i think that terrain is still hardly touch in the sence of transforming it into a reall mmorpg. As for Fantasy based games i really think its the game engine that limits races, if you look at regular single player games you hardly get to play anything else then either :Human, Cars, Mechs, they are basic structures and easy to implement and give body to for a game, for now we have to do with the Boss/Creatures that look complex but are game controled, but i do believe in time they will be able to let us play more complex kind of creatures/machines or anything that comes to mind. Technoligy has come a long way and isn't stopping yet, i bet in 5/10 years from now we get to play games we can not even imagin would be possible :D |
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Funny thing is, AC2 did that, in a way. The races all had 2 legs and 2 arms, but Tonks didn't look any more like hoomans than the Lugians did. Unfortunately the game had other downfalls. I have to play a hooman in real life, why would I want to be one in a game I play to take a break from that life?
I miss my tonk, with her tail spikes...it's just a skin, why would that bring additional balance issues? If you can balance elves, dorfs, goblins, and hoomans, why would adding an additional race make it more difficult? Most racial traits in the games I've played haven't been even close to character-breaking. At best they're a mild buff that only applies in certain situations. I really liked playing a char whose only hoomanoid characteristic was the ability to walk upright. |
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One curious option that could truely bring out a bunch of different races without unbalancing it to much, is the old warhammer point system. It would require the game to be almost entirely battleground based but it would work something like this. Someone on your team wants to be a spider who can weild six swords at once, thats great but it takes up four team member slots where as a normal human might only take up one, and if only 20 team members are allowed per team do you really want a single player controlling four of them.
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When i was talking about balancing issues i was considering the differing impacts of having spiders with greatly differing abilities, not like on a d&d model where the only difference between the races are a few stat points. If races are truly going to be a draw factor for undecided gamers then racial traits need to have a far greater impact than cosmetic appearances as the game "Horizons" shows.
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necrotherion
 Novice Member
Joined: 12/08/06
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?" - Joe Stalin |
There's a whole whazoob-load of issues that hold devs back from creating "truely unique" races.
Humans are obsessed with aesthetics. Using WoW as an example, most people would rather play a pretty race such as a human or night elf than an ugly race such as a troll or tauren. That's one reason why you get more Allies (the other being the whole "some people are attracted to good/some people are attracted to evil" thing). Also, I agree, racial abilities that are extremely unique or overpowering tend to create balance issues. Personally, I'm all for unique races, as long as they have two legs and walk upright. |
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Karse
Apprentice Member
Joined: 4/11/06
Jack of all trades master of none is still better than master of one. |
I'm the first to say "oooo I can play a spider monster?! splee!!!"(yes these are the exact words i'd embarass myself with in a store...) I can see plenty of ways to balance it against a race with two arms... With increased ability to use weapons might come with loss of defenses such as a major weakness to fire and inability to use heavy weapons, maybe their armor is more expensive and they can use certain skills... or a lizard race thats immune to fire and can spit acid but weak to cold and blunt weapons... that would be fun as well in my book. I'm all for new inhumanoid races I'd easily play as an ant creature or a djinn or something to that effect and there are plenty of way to balance strengths by giving proportionate weaknesses. I find it a bit depressing that it's impossible to find a game that has done something like this well even if it would be hard it would make a unique interesting game that would reinvigorate the fantasy setting... to be honest I'd like to at the least see a were-creature playable for once even if I'd have to do an extremely difficult quest (think Jedi from SWG before they became impatient difficult) to be one through starting as a human or elf or something. There are many ways designers could create a unique world even in the fantasy setting... unfortunately none seem to even bother attempting which might be for the best as people might complain... People always complain about something and that often prevents innovations in MMOs and basically any genre of game...
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Lunar_Knight
 Novice Member
Joined: 5/29/03
Bite my lip |
You guys are right. There are absolutely no gam-*cough Atriarch cough*-excuse me, no games at all coming out that want to develop unique player races. I just wish there was SOME ONE out there developing a total original and weird world set out side the typical fantasy genre, but were would I begin to LOOK?!
..................................... ...but time flows like a river... ...and history repeats... -Leader of "The Fighting Irish" in DAoC on Hib/Kay- |
Originally posted by Lunar_Knight Heh, that post acually got me to laugh out loud. You do make a good point, but since it isn't being developed by blizzard, sony, EA or NCsoft the majority of the MMO community are in deneil about its exsistence. |
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Pretty simplistic debate. Czerkaski wants non-primatial or even non-mammalian races because he sees any humanoid as 'just a weird human', seemingly ignorant of the lifetimes of research and development behind these archetypes and their firm validity on so many levels. He argues in favour of ridiculous new races like an eight year old draws monsters. 'Look! It's cool and creative and has artistic merit because it has a claw on its head for no reason! Also, it speaks Klingon and has four sexes. I have absolutely no actual thought behind this, no idea how it would evolve, live, think, mate, build, grow, or what it exists for at all, but it looks damn cool, doesn't it?' Anyone who thinks that the deeply defined races of mediaeval fantasy are uncreative and that the use of them is 'lazy', yet somehow thinks that talking moles or spiders are creative additions... I would like to disembowel with a non-stick plastic cooking spoon. I am not a traditionalist. I advocate anything but mortal stagnation. I do not stick with Elves and Men because they are the way things have always been done. I do it because they are strong archetypes with extremely worthwhile premises, distinct cultures, psychological dichotomies and antithetical aesthetics. I'm sorry, but it is the people who suggest races such as Czerkaski pines over who seem to be the uncreative ones. They are gung-ho about spastically creating things for the sake of creating them, but the reason or worth of creating them seems completely irrelevant in their thought processes. They seem in favour of going about the creation of races like a game of Mad Libs. Saerain Tested: 53 titles | Saerain Approved: EVE, VG, LotRO, AoC, SB |
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Lunar_Knight
Novice Member
Joined: 5/29/03
Bite my lip |
Originally posted by Guler What? Sony isn't making the game?! OMGWTFBBQ this d@*& game! Ok, sarcasism has reached critical mass, but in all honesty, there is this little thing on this website called the GAME LIST! Take a moment and look through it once in a while.
..................................... ...but time flows like a river... ...and history repeats... -Leader of "The Fighting Irish" in DAoC on Hib/Kay- |
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MrArchy
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 2/12/06
"The NGE sucks." - Me "SWG NGE is the fools folly..." - JestorRodo |
There was another game out there with familiar races nonetheless new to MMOs, that have developed lore, sociology, ecology, etc., and the rest of the schtick you chaps are talking about, and they've been with us for nearly 30 years but they're not overused. They are wookiees, trandoshans, bothans, twi'lek, rodians, etc. The only problem with the game they're in is that the developer and IP owner have screwed it up royally and one or both refuse to fix it, and the (now largely former) playerbase is generally highly pissed off about the whole affair, and the server populations suck, the promises of "our #1 priority is fixing bugs" remains unmet nearly a year later, content development is a joke, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Oh well, more orc and elves, I guess.................
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server |
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I'm all for unique, non-humanoid races. The idea of a spider-beast being able to take on half a dozen or so humans is a good one, that sort of dynamic opens up a lot of different avenues for content. Devs could take note of the systems used in tabletop wargames, where each unit has a 'points cost'. Overall balance could be achieved if each race was assigned a cap of how many 'points' could be online on a server at any given time. For example, if a spider-beast can take on six humans, then the server should be able to 'hold' six times as many humans as it can spider-beasts. I think devs are too concerned with making things 'fair' on an individual basis (always irritates me when the need for 'game balance' makes an ogre the same as a human barring +1 strength and -1 intellignece, or similar). They need to start thinking of more dynamic ways to acheive balance than individual power. Of course, the problem with introducing races which aren't equal, is that a good portion of players would gravitate towards the percieved 'strongest' race, which would naturally need to be the most limited one. So a large number of players would possibly be left unable to play their favoured race (or stuck in a queue waiting their turn). Perhaps we need to change our ways as players too, before we can ask for more variety from the devs. And to round of with a question: What would happen if we were given a 'sandbox' environment, with imbalanced races (no pop caps), and the possibility for one race to 'win'. Would we see the most imbalanced race triumph time after time, or do you think there would be enough players looking for a challenge to even things up (after the first couple of routs at least)? EDIT: Just checked out Atriarch's site. Kinda has both sides of the argument in one. On the one hand, they aren't traditional races. On the other, four of the five are two-armed, two-legged (in other words, humanoid). I suspect the fifth plays as if it was, and that choosing a race will remain mostly cosmetic in that game too. I think we need to go further, different races should give a different game experience, rather than what we have now, the same experience in a different skin. |
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Anofalye
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/19/03
The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander. |
Why would a spider with 6 swords automatically have the upper hand against a shield and sword?
I am sorry, but if you try to be realist for 1 moment, all it take is 1 blow to win. Having 6 weapons only mean that your opponent can't play defensive. But a berserking viking could easily charge, use it shield to block most of the attacks and drive his axe into the skull of the fiend.
In a system with hps and very long fights, yes having more weapons would grant you an automatic victory, but it isn't realist...and it isn't fun. A viking who charge a 6 armed abomination can kill it, 1 shot. Now I don't say we have to make it 1 shot, but we have to make sure it remain interesting. I have nothing against an appealing and interesting system, but if you are automatically going to give the victory to abominations, I won't find this appealing, nor interesting. Unless there is something else to justify it...such as lives per month, where a spider who lose merely a life or two is out for the month, then sure, it can be fun....but the consequences must be there, otherwise there is no reasons to play the weaker side. Each side must be appealing...and honestly, I rather see humans always have a strong role in the MMOs, even if I nearly never play them myself.
I have no problems with a race wearing no armor and having a huge offense bonus, but you have to make sure the game remain interesting, a berserker is all in the offense, it would make no sense that you end up with a 1 way fight between two players sharing the same role, melee-offense. (even if personnally, I always play defensive vikings/barbarians, 95% of them are offensive bastards) - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation) |
Originally posted by Lunar_Knight Is Atriarch ever going to actually get released though? Its been in development for almost 8 years...
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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
"In EVE, no one gives a damn about a fair fight." - chafin |
Almost a non-debate here. The current fantasy races thrive because their lore is so deep we almost think of them as "real". Try to make a 10 foot tall Dwarf Female, who is highly intelligent and hates mead would cause an uproar among the typical gamer.
Also, these are Role playing games... and face it... many people role play by identifying with their characters. Give the choice, many gamers chose to play humans, and the better looking the human the more likely they will play it. There are few female dwarf characters in WoW.... most women wont even consider playing them.... and most men do so only as a joke or to be unique. Look at WoW's Gnome race...has an obvous advanatage a spell caster... yet many people play human mages/warlocks etc cause they hate the look of gnomes. Heck, Dwarf priests are a better example...almost no reason to play any other race.... yet there are more Night Elf priests out there... for athestic reasons only. It would be interesting to see Starcraft become an MMO, just so we could see how many folks would enjoy playing on the side of the Zerg.... "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon EVE Cult member since May 2007 Regarding EVE: "To be honest, I think God himself created this game." - Shek Regarding new players in EVE: "Think of yourself as a child released into a park full of pedophiles..." - Eleazaros |
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I think the point of the spider race was not so much the appearance as in the wildly different game mechanics.
Most races these days play the same, except for perhaps some stat differences and different starting cities. Not really significant imho. Your better off doing a COH deal and just let people mod their differences with the character creator. I think they want to increase the play styles difference by making the races different in how they play. This of course would mean having a more complicated world. A spider race might have 4 arms (i think it might have trouble balancing on only 2 legs), but would be real short and squat. Its vision might be blurry and or very short sighted. It might not feel pain (no hp indicator for you!). Now all of a sudden the game takes on a real different character. Of course, all the talk about balance still applies. But i never viewed these games as races to the top, so it worries me less. |
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Tamalan
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/13/04
Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for? |
Always fancied a playable Centaur race myself, it would at least keep Player Blacksmiths busy making and fitting shoes :)
Centaur_01: Hey baby, check me out! Half-man, half horse! (wiggles eyebrows suggestively) |
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anyone remember a game that was made 20 years ago called Wizardry: Crusaders of the Dark Savant, it was re-released with better graphics as Wizardry Gold. The game gave you your basic fantasy races but then also gave you Lizardmen, Faerie, Dracon (half-man, half-dragon), Rawulf (humanoid dogs), Felpurr (humanoid cats) and Mook (looked like a Wookie). It was quiet original for it's time, and built a great atmostphere even for a 2D game. Other original NPC races included Umpani (Rhinoceros men), T'rang (Spider men), and Ratkin (Rat men). It had alot of great content, if brought into an MMO would be quite cool. |
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A good example for lack of imagination imho is in the EQ1's latest expansion, Serpent Spire - the latest race addition (forgot already what they are called): they are basically humans with some horns on their head, plus a bit different stats. Wow. Cool. Imaginative. Great. NOOOOT!
I was so dissapointed, especially in comparison to EQ2's latest addition, the Fay. Has wings, can hover (won't die jumping down a cliff), but can't fly, as to not become too overpowered over other races. Now that is fun and different. EQ also has the frog race, but you don't see many playing them. Wonder why - lack of imagination by us players?
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It doesn't bother me at all that games keep re-using the standard, traditional, fantasy races. What bothers me is that they keep remaking the same damn shallow, simplistic, linear game over and over again. Grind for levels and loot as you work your way through progressively higher level areas and then spend your time raiding at the end. I still dream of the "world" mmorpg that makes you feel like your character is living in a fantasy world. As opposed to the currently over-used formula where you follow a predefined path to the "end-game" and then wait for the next expansion or the next new game to come out. |
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I use to Imm on several MUDs , those weird text based things that surprisingly are still around, lurking in the backwaters.. We had an insect race which had 4 limbs, balanced by the fact it had next to no hitpoints on each one, so yes in battle its offense was great, if you hit it you almost always cut of a limb..was mostly balanced and kinda fun to have to flee from battle carrying your legs in a sack.. The next lot of MMO's seem to be starting to take their influence from the asian myths (a lot of vanguard races look like the Japanese’s spirits etc) as our various cultures mix and class it seems that the next generation may depart somewhat from the Tolkien model. F or better or for worse.. Mylin
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Originally posted by Neanderthal Wise words from Neanderthal. Game developers want complexity, but game producers who tell them what to do want revenue, and the only way that the Producers can envision making revenue is by "Kill, Loot, Repeat". And to make the game last longer they give you a thousand character levels to work through and then they give you an enemy that takes 40,000 character levels to defeat. And there you have revenue, and players that hate you. If you want players to stay you give them a world that they can live in, and don't limit what they can and cannot do. Most importantly the players and the producers have to remember that if there is an "end-game" then there's also an ending of the interest. Get to level 1000 and you're done, no more player, no more revenue. |
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