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Originally posted by Distortion0
Well, before you go saying 'made up numbers', you have to watch your loaded terms. What is a raider? Is it simply anyone who raids? Does anyone ever say "If this game doesn't have raiding, I won't play."? I mean, I don't like the idea of raiding, but I'd probably try it I really wanted the gear.

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Right on the mark.

 

Uber raiding is the problematic, and THIS appeal to a minority within a minority.  While raiding itself, not granting uber-reward, isn't problematic.

 

Raiding is a minority.  Uber-raiding is a minority among a minority.  Yet, designs are enforcing uber-raiding, and this is a very harsh mistake.

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Originally posted by boognish75
Raiding doesnt neecd to die!! What would be the point of massive in mmorpg if there wasnt rading.?

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hmmm maybe that we finaly would be able to play a mmorpg instead of what was a mmorpg wich turnsout to be a FPS kinda game but with groups, it serently does not have to die, i said this before raiding is fun and can be challenging, but to say the whole point of mmorpg is to raid is only making clear you probebly unable to play mmorpg, wich in most cases is not only you to blame but mostly the game developers who have lost their ways.

I really like wow but i really do not like most of its crowed, i've been i different kind of guilds but have been more solo then guilded mostly because the guilds i was in said they where hardcore rpg players but all they did was running raids and mostly the same once over and over again to get there guild m8's the same gear, afcourse very good to helpout others to get gear but sorry what the hell does this have to do with rpg. Also have not been that fortunate to run into a mature guild that really understood mmorpg the way i do, or i might need to except that cause of being on this world since 1972 i'm beginning to become a dinosaur in gaming and unable to grasp how the world has changed in and outside of gaming

Afcourse if i would creat a mmorpg(not that i'm able to unfortunaly and probebly never can) i probebly would follow the same trend and make the end game raiding mostly, why you might think if i'm so against the doing the same thing over and over again would i do this, simple its those people that will keep paying for the same content over and over again for the same sub-fee.

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Originally posted by Balmer

Thats kind of a moronic response, Spiritglow. Why would you think the devs' ego has anything to do with how their customers obtain wealth or items. It's game mechanics, yes...but without rules or a system that governs what you do in this make-believe world, it's not a game. Would you play Chess with no rules? How would you win? Would you even bother trying? Thats like playing Chess with a 3 year old...who randomly pushes the pieces wherever he wants and tackles the queen and makes dinosaur noises. "I Win!"

So, I argue that there has to be a rule system. And the rule system that WoW has includes multiple paths to wealth, power and glory. The expansion will certainly make it a lot easier for casuals with the new 5 man content, but imo, the greater glory is progressing a larger force into a much more formiddable set of circumstances...ie, a raid. Coordinating not 4 other people, but 39 (or 24 in TBC) is much more rewarding to a lot of players. Casuals deserve to have some fun, too, but those that don't log the time, don't deserve the best rewards. Maximum effort=maximum reward. I don't know how many other ways to say that.

 

If you want a game experience that doesn't involve other ppl, or doesn't require you to be social, then maybe MMOs aren't for you. Don't ride the bandwagon cause it's what all the cool kids are doing.

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Sometimes I come across someone who says or does something where I realize that that they just don't get it (at least for the moment). Right here is just such a situition. The Guild Wars devs get it. In Guild Wars it's solo or group only. You don't have to worry about raiding because there's no raiding. I like it like that and so does many others. If you want to remain stuck with the raid paradigm or vision and not progress to a broader paradigm or vision go right ahead. I'm going with games that provide the option not to raid. That means a game with raiding but has non raid servers or no raiding in the game at all. I don't hate raiding or those who do raid I just want the option of being able to experience the whole game without raiding being required and those who offer that option will get my money.

In fact if someone made a raid only server or handled raiding like how Guild Wars handles PvP I could go for that. i prefer having choices, the more the better. How odd it is that I support the decison of those who want to raid but raiders usually don't support those who don't want to raid.

Spiritglow  

It always seems to be the same arguement, with the same "facts" quoted by each side.  Jeez.  We all need to learn how to "agree to disagree".  Or something like that.

Personally, I'm sure the raiders greatly enjoy their form of entertainment, and that's their choice.  Do I agree that it's fun?  Hell no.  But let them have their raids.  Should they get powerful items from it?  The way MMO's are designed, yes.  MMOs are all designed so that "time invested = power".  The more you play, the more you are rewarded.  This is something raiders like.  They are the Achiever type.

Now it seems the casuals are upset because of the rewards the raiders get from all their time spent.  I won't call it hard work, cause I know a girl who raids *non-stop* in WoW, and half the time she falls asleep at the keyboard, and people /still survive/.  But, the casuals are complaining that the raiders get all the "phat lewtz".

I think this is where the raiders and the casuals get a little confused.  The casuals aren't bitching that the raiders get the best gear.  It's that the *only way* to get this gear is through raiding.  There's no epic, super long quests that drop epic items.  And until recently in WoW, it was even harder to get epic gear through PvP.  (I'm using WoW as the example, as it's what the majority of posters here have been using)  So, understandably, the casuals complain because they are forced down a single path in order to obtain epic items.  The casuals have come to enjoy a different playstyle from the game than the raiders.  But once they hit the end-game, their options are simply down to one.  Raiding.

But the raiders complain because the casuals "want everything for nothing".  They don't see how their playstyle might not be fun for other players.  Some people like RTS games, others don't.  Same thing with FPS games.  Why should all MMO players have to raid?  Why is it the "accepted form" of end-game? 

The new change to the PvP rewards in WoW seems like a good thing, IMO.  It has allowed the casual players a chance to get an epic item, while being able to do something they might actually enjoy.  Hell, I know a bunch of people that have gone from raiding to PvP for their rewards after the change.  The never liked raiding, they only wanted the chance to get better gear.  But they always enjoyed the PvP aspects of WoW.  Now they can do both at the /same time/.  Imagine that.

I think both sides need to understand where each other is coming from. 

Should the raiders be rewarded for their hours of playing?  Yes.

Should the casuals have a different way of achieving the same (or similar) gear?  Yes.  Though it should take as long in game time as raiders spend, but can be spread out over smaller chunks.

Okay, that's my point.  Or not. 
I'm sure people will just rant how I'm wrong and say nothing constructive (or understandable) anyways.
The Rev.

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Originally posted by Ancile


What I mean by the above sentence, especially the very first, was that the author and others voicing similar opinions aren't the true casual gamers. True casual gamers doesn't throw the same hissy fits or obsessions over loot. Because that's what this is all about, they don't desire or want to put in whatever effort is required to optain the items.
Even though it's clear as day that the games of today are primarily about item acquisition, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

In fact this is the aged old debate of Risk vs Reward that dates as far back as to the dawn of raiding.
.
Now what people need to understand is that, it doesn't take several "days" on end as the author so clearly put it, to be a raider. Especially in the silver platter game that is WoW, MMORPG players today have it far easier then they ever did but that's a different discussion.
I personally know plenty of people with real life jobs, significant others, ect. That has sufficient time for a couple hours every other night for a little MC raiding, or what not.

It's an old tired out discussion when people bring up the fact that they don't have time. When it's more about how they manage their time, and their priorities. The problem isn't with the developers or the raiders.

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"Now what people need to understand is that, it doesn't take several "days" on end as the author so clearly put it, to be a raider"

Okay, a new guild that does Molten Core can spend 5+ hour contigious blocks trying to takedown just the first major boss and get all 40 people to show up. For folks that have children, wives, etc 5+ hours is simply too much. Leveling from 1-60 I never had to stay on past an hour to get stuff accomplished. When you hit 60+, all of s udden, it takes hours to get something accomplished. It makes no sense to try to rephrase it otherwise.

Next, you try to claim that casual gamers dont want loot. WHAT!??? I know even women that screamed on ventrillo/teamspeak as soon as someone stole their loot. And these were casual gamers for sure- they were content with the idea of never raiding molten core and never hitting level 60.

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Balmer

Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie.

It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

 

 

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see, you're just making up numbers.  as i stated in my post,  jeff kaplan (you know, lead dev for world of warcraft, that guy...) had a presentation at the last e3 show (big event, lots of gaming devs go there to show off their stuff, you might've heard of it).  now, at this thing, as i stated previously, kaplan had a presentation, if you look at the presentation, he has numbers, taken directly from the game, of how many people raid. 

so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following.  now see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %.  a calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how many raid.

feel free to apologize.

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Good post man I knew this was the case I knew very few people that cared to raid. It was just tough- it many cases it required leaving the guild you were apart of to join a hardocre raiding guild full of people that could barely get along all because 'loot was the tie that held the guild together'. Not all guilds were like this. I stuck with my RL friends and we eventually built up enough to hit Molten Core, Onyxia, etc. Anyway, just giving a reason why many cant raid. Also, if you rolled undesireable classes like rogue, etc you might find it hard to join a raiding guild let alone get a spot on Molten Core, etc

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Originally posted by RevMrBlack
It always seems to be the same arguement, with the same "facts" quoted by each side.  Jeez.  We all need to learn how to "agree to disagree".  Or something like that.

Or learn to go play different games. Why do game developers have to appease EVERY type of gamer? Nevermind, I know the answer to that: more money.

Personally, I'm sure the raiders greatly enjoy their form of entertainment, and that's their choice.  Do I agree that it's fun?  Hell no.  But let them have their raids.  Should they get powerful items from it?  The way MMO's are designed, yes.  MMOs are all designed so that "time invested = power".  The more you play, the more you are rewarded.  This is something raiders like.  They are the Achiever type.

I agree.

Now it seems the casuals are upset because of the rewards the raiders get from all their time spent.  I won't call it hard work, cause I know a girl who raids *non-stop* in WoW, and half the time she falls asleep at the keyboard, and people /still survive/.  But, the casuals are complaining that the raiders get all the "phat lewtz".

The slackers will eventually be weeded out from any serious raiding guild. Believe me.

I think this is where the raiders and the casuals get a little confused.  The casuals aren't bitching that the raiders get the best gear.  It's that the *only way* to get this gear is through raiding.  There's no epic, super long quests that drop epic items.  And until recently in WoW, it was even harder to get epic gear through PvP.  (I'm using WoW as the example, as it's what the majority of posters here have been using)  So, understandably, the casuals complain because they are forced down a single path in order to obtain epic items.  The casuals have come to enjoy a different playstyle from the game than the raiders.  But once they hit the end-game, their options are simply down to one.  Raiding.

You may have a point, but how do you reward 'achievers' for their effort porportional to the the effort by 'casuals'? I still think the system is rewarding appropriately...but obviously casuals are unhappy because they can't achieve the same level of gear without raiding. I'm not sure a fair system for this will ever exist. The day the devs put in an easier/alternative path to the same epic level gear is the day hardcore raiders will say this game is for chumps and go find a new game.

But the raiders complain because the casuals "want everything for nothing".  They don't see how their playstyle might not be fun for other players.  Some people like RTS games, others don't.  Same thing with FPS games.  Why should all MMO players have to raid?  Why is it the "accepted form" of end-game? 

It's not about having fun. It's about experiencing the content and achieving...right?  Also, why is raiding considered the epitomy of end-game? Because it's not just putting 40 ppl together and killing stuff. It's learning new strats that can only be developed outside the 5 man system. It's exponentially more difficult for even the same skill level player to raid than it is to conquer a 5 man. Flame away...but most non-raiders really have no idea what it takes to heal a 40 man raid, for instance.

The new change to the PvP rewards in WoW seems like a good thing, IMO.  It has allowed the casual players a chance to get an epic item, while being able to do something they might actually enjoy.  Hell, I know a bunch of people that have gone from raiding to PvP for their rewards after the change.  The never liked raiding, they only wanted the chance to get better gear.  But they always enjoyed the PvP aspects of WoW.  Now they can do both at the /same time/.  Imagine that.

I personally don't care because I know the day TBC launches is the day that all current pvp rewards become obsolete.

I think both sides need to understand where each other is coming from. 

Should the raiders be rewarded for their hours of playing?  Yes.

Absolutely.

Should the casuals have a different way of achieving the same (or similar) gear?  Yes.  Though it should take as long in game time as raiders spend, but can be spread out over smaller chunks.

Good luck with that. An 8 hour raid is what..a 4 or 5 day cycle for the typical 'casual'? Let's not even talk about the WEEKS spent LEARNING how to beat a new encounter in a raid. Consider how long it took before anyone conquered Naxxaramas in WoW.

Okay, that's my point.  Or not. 
I'm sure people will just rant how I'm wrong and say nothing constructive (or understandable) anyways.

Thanks for the comments. You're at least one of the more literate posters here today. L2English, the rest of ya!

The Rev.

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Comments above.

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Originally posted by RevMrBlack
It always seems to be the same arguement, with the same "facts" quoted by each side.  Jeez.  We all need to learn how to "agree to disagree".  Or something like that.

Personally, I'm sure the raiders greatly enjoy their form of entertainment, and that's their choice.  Do I agree that it's fun?  Hell no.  But let them have their raids.  Should they get powerful items from it?  The way MMO's are designed, yes.  MMOs are all designed so that "time invested = power".  The more you play, the more you are rewarded.  This is something raiders like.  They are the Achiever type.

Now it seems the casuals are upset because of the rewards the raiders get from all their time spent.  I won't call it hard work, cause I know a girl who raids *non-stop* in WoW, and half the time she falls asleep at the keyboard, and people /still survive/.  But, the casuals are complaining that the raiders get all the "phat lewtz".

I think this is where the raiders and the casuals get a little confused.  The casuals aren't bitching that the raiders get the best gear.  It's that the *only way* to get this gear is through raiding.  There's no epic, super long quests that drop epic items.  And until recently in WoW, it was even harder to get epic gear through PvP.  (I'm using WoW as the example, as it's what the majority of posters here have been using)  So, understandably, the casuals complain because they are forced down a single path in order to obtain epic items.  The casuals have come to enjoy a different playstyle from the game than the raiders.  But once they hit the end-game, their options are simply down to one.  Raiding.

But the raiders complain because the casuals "want everything for nothing".  They don't see how their playstyle might not be fun for other players.  Some people like RTS games, others don't.  Same thing with FPS games.  Why should all MMO players have to raid?  Why is it the "accepted form" of end-game? 

The new change to the PvP rewards in WoW seems like a good thing, IMO.  It has allowed the casual players a chance to get an epic item, while being able to do something they might actually enjoy.  Hell, I know a bunch of people that have gone from raiding to PvP for their rewards after the change.  The never liked raiding, they only wanted the chance to get better gear.  But they always enjoyed the PvP aspects of WoW.  Now they can do both at the /same time/.  Imagine that.

I think both sides need to understand where each other is coming from. 

Should the raiders be rewarded for their hours of playing?  Yes.

I think they should as well

Should the casuals have a different way of achieving the same (or similar) gear?  Yes.  Though it should take as long in game time as raiders spend, but can be spread out over smaller chunks.

I assure you I spend way more time playing online rpgs then most spend raiding online. A raid encounter often is easier then grouping or soloing.  I can join a guild that raids, attend the raids, fall asleep at the keyboard or go and sit in a corner or sit among the raiders and cast a spell or two and no one would notice (usually), honestly it's that easy. Can you say BORING?. So if I do that enough times I'm considered elite cause I can get gear not available to any other playstyle but raiding?  So the truth is it's easier to be a raider cause if you don't perform in a raid others will step up and get the job down but because you may have more raid points (cause you appeared at more raids) you could end up with an item that drops that you did nothing more then show up for.

Okay, that's my point.  Or not. 
I'm sure people will just rant how I'm wrong and say nothing constructive (or understandable) anyways.
The Rev.

Spiritglow

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(edited)

Spot on... (myselg, a member of majority - a casual non-raider - with a LIFE :)

DB

Then there's the raiders. Raiders seek to tackle the hardest content the game generally has to offer. They by no means are stuck in a definition of having to spend countless hours playing.

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Don't you think you have just completely and totally opposed your very own opinion with this? :))) I remember you saying that whoever want the real good content (IE: gear) in a game, must invest a LOT of their precious time into the game... remember? now?

Gotcha... (was too easy anyway :)

DB

Well, raiding should not be removed from a game but more options should be available. If the game is extremely gear oriented then an alternative way of getting the gear should exist. To be fair though, the best MMOS I saw were the one that crafting had a huge impact on the world.

 

   I definitely think that if you put so many hours into a game and building your character, you should be rewarded with possibilities at the end of the game that will make the hard work worthwhile.  Raiding is fine for people who like it, but not everyone can enjoy tedium.  I'd like to see more random content, that can have the same possibility for rare drops, but is more customizable to  playing style.  If the gaming industry promotes an attitude that players should have no life in order to fully enjoy their games, then they will have few gamers paying their subscriptions.  Especially because a gamer who spends all their time playing games has no time to work for the money to pay the subscriptions.  Yeah.  Anyway, I agree with this article.

Agree completely with the OP.  It is refreshing to see dedicated gaming sites stating this point.

This needs to said.

This needs to be repeated.

And most importantly some smart developer needs to DO it and show the gaming market that the tired, tedious game mechanics left-over from Everquest need to evolve.

I think 2007 will be the year when MMORPGs finally see this happen.  There are more than a few games that are trying to address this problem.

Let's hope at least one of them gets it right, because if they don't - if at least one of those games doesn't succeeed, we will be looking at another entire decade of Raid or Die MMORPG gameplay started by EQ and perpetuated by WoW.

2007 is the year to watch. 

I agree with the article writer. Its a low budget way of increasing the games length. Instead of creating a sandbox environment, they use a treadmill. Its sucks, one day people will figure it out......  i hope.

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Originally posted by _Seeker

I agree with the article writer. Its a low budget way of increasing the games length. Instead of creating a sandbox environment, they use a treadmill. Its sucks, one day people will figure it out......  i hope.

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There's so much more the devs can do then to cling to an old paradigm. We could have player made mods, player GM's who can create content. Player made servers with custom rulesets. Raid only servers. Raid/Group/Solo servers. Group/Solo servers. Sooner or later someone will realize they can make huge money providing choices of freedom of play in a game. Gamers are becoming more vocal because of sites like mmorpg.com and it's about time rather then be spoonfed someone elses Vision.

Spiritglow

Steve Wilson nailed the difference between the "hardcore" and "casual' gamers and what each "generally" wants in a game.

It was a well written opinion piece.  I would liked to have seen "DKP's" added to the article simply because that does play a huge roll in the two play styles (casual gamers who at least "try" to do some raid content end up losing out due to the lack of accumulated points, thus leading to even more hardship on the casuals who do try to work with the "end-game raid content").

I'd like to see someone tackle that in an editorial or column: the in-game effect of external organization.

 

-Ashyn

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Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Then there's the raiders. Raiders seek to tackle the hardest content the game generally has to offer. They by no means are stuck in a definition of having to spend countless hours playing.

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Don't you think you have just completely and totally opposed your very own opinion with this? :))) I remember you saying that whoever want the real good content (IE: gear) in a game, must invest a LOT of their precious time into the game... remember? now?

Gotcha... (was too easy anyway :)

DB

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Originally posted by Ashyn

 I would liked to have seen "DKP's" added to the article simply because that does play a huge roll in the two play styles (casual gamers who at least "try" to do some raid content end up losing out due to the lack of accumulated points, thus leading to even more hardship on the casuals who do try to work with the "end-game raid content").

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To address the first quote. I've always opposed guilds and other raiders who were in the mind set that, we needed to raid for several hours on end, even though there were examples of guilds out there across other servers that managed to do it faster, better, with less people. In part by putting in a higher level of skill obviously, either through the various members simply playing their characters better, or by having a highly efficient management system for raids and the guild it self.

I'm a firm believer that the raids were always able to be accomplished in a better or faster way then how others usually did them. And more often then not, proved that the guilds that I were a part of, could always accomplish far greater things at a faster pace then the members the guild thought possible.

I'm not at all surprised when WoW raiders moan about spending countless hours at raids. Many of them are first time MMORPG players, and I'd reckon just as many are first time raiders too. It all boils down to the way the guild is managed, and the competence of the raid leader(s) and other guild officers/leaders.
Key individuals are what makes the raids endurable, and not drag out for countless hours.

To address the item distribution issue, there's various ways to distribute items accumulated at a raid.
I've seen various systems, multiple variations of DKP and what not, and the one system that I favor the most is having set key individuals distributing items based on various criteria. Such as attendance, how much of an upgrade said item is to XYZ players, class benefits the most, ect ect.
This system eliminates the extreme need or feeling that you must show up at all raids. Obviously it doesn't mean you can't just log on randomly whenever you want, it obviously comes with certain expectations from the members of the guild to contribute a certain level of attendance, but that level can vary a lot all depending on the type of guild and it's overall goals.

Great article - and the writer made a very good point. At best, the current 40-man ZERG style of raiding is a "stuck" paradigm, the MMOG equivalent of monsters jumping out of closets in the FPS genre or peasants chopping wood in the RTS genre. At worst, it's just damn lazy.

Look, I work in the casual games business and I can tell ya, the devs I know work their butts off coming up with new content on a daily basis. Yeah, yeah, I know that "WOW is infinitely more detailed than Bejeweled 2" but the fact remains - how come smaller developers can come up with plenty of fresh content but WOW sticks players with one uninspired, repetitive dungeon after another? WOW has sold almost as many copies as Halo 2, and that's before you factor in the $15 a month X 7 million subscribers. Sure staff and servers are expensive, but with their massive war chest WOW could easily afford to add new challenging small party quests every few months, if not every month. But time after time WOW takes the easy road by creating another VIP room that only 5 percent of the population will ever see.

But as a long-time Blizzard fan, I do want to think that the former reason (stuck paradigm) is more to blame than the latter (Blizzard are a bunch of lazy/greedy SOBs). One can only hope that new games will either redesign the raiding dynamic to make it more fun for all involved or eliminate it alltogether.

According to PARC (Play on), very few players even in WoW raid.
More info can be found here: http://blogs.parc.com/playon/archives/2006/03/raid_content_us.html.

I think any developer willing to risk it will see a huge market for gamers that do not want raiding (or even pvp) as their sole
end game content.