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David Souza contribues this week's World of Warcraft editorial. Within, he talks about the ups and downs of the end game in World of Warcraft.
The full editorial is here. Dana Massey |
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12/08/06 2:39:03 PM#2
Good read for the most part. Unfortunately, it's nothing we haven't heard/seen/read before. It is also about World of Warcraft which I, personally, am growing tired of hearing about.
Course, I'm no writer and I can't think of anything else to write about either so i guess i'd write about WoW too... /logs back in to get his third char closer to 60... |
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12/08/06 2:43:31 PM#3
Maybe this is an indication that the typical end game needs to change. If you guys are going to turn it into something other than a game, you need to seriously consider your mental health. You people are too serious about something that has no bearing on real life what so ever. I feel sorry for people who would rather spend their waking moments raiding with fictional friends rather than deal with a real life. Why would people pay a company to foster this kind of "game mechanic"? I'm still waiting for a MMO that will entertain me rather than make me work and charge me for it to boot. |
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12/08/06 2:49:11 PM#4
Kovah, you are being overly critical and perhaps you are one of the ones who need to hear it again. The author makes some very valid points..., points that are forgotten many times over in the day to day posts out there concerning effort and time having to be given to a MMORPG. I think people need to be reminded that MMORPG's are a social endeavor and require the same amount of attention as other social endeavours. I also think people hide being anonymity and forget that they need to show respect to everyone. Guilds are exactly what they sound like; a group of people that have a common goal with a HIERARCHY. People need to respect the chain of command and stop being asses just because they think the guild leader might be a child or that his is just a game and doesn't matter. I like the way the author uses sports and an analogy for gaming hobbies. They both are actually similar, but MMORPG gamers don't take gaming as seriously as they should, because of the anonymity factor. WoW isn't my style of game and neither is their raiding, but I do understand that it is a legitimate end game and that it is akin to sports in the way that you need to practise and take it just as seriously. I believe that people who do not take the gaming seriously do not belong in guilds or games that require seriousness. This is a trend I see among newer gamers as opposed to older (Pre-WoW) gamers. MMORPG's are hobbies for many of us and we take them just as seriously as the person that fishes or plays professional football. We play to have fun, we play to win, we play to build and to advance. We play for many reasons, but above all we are all committed to the game and understand that hobbies take work. It is about time that these passerby gamers realize that they stepped into a serious hobby, not just another console game. |
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12/08/06 2:57:31 PM#5
You have some ill concieved notions of gaming. Fishing, sports, woodworking, and many other hobbies doesn't really have a bearing on real life either. Gaming is a legitamate hobby and people like you need to realize this. Gaming can also become an addiction, in which case the person could use some help. But I myself have a very healthy lifestyle (family, education, social life) but I also enjoy my hobby (MMORPG's) and enjoy having a virtual life. By the way, welcome to the 21st century; online friends are just as real as offline friends. They have the same feelings, lives, and values that your offline friends might have. Do not think that just because a person isn't tangible that they do not actually exists. You should read up on MMORPG's and realize how many social gatherings actually happen with online friends meeting and hanging out through out the year. What about online match making? Many couples have met their soulmate online. Many people have found their careers online. Doing things online is legitamate and so is having online friends. The question you should ask yourself as everyone else will be: Who are you to tell a person what hobby is good and what hobby is bad, who needs mental help and who doesn't, and how they should live their life? Are you trying to say that you are perfect, have a very successful career with no problems, have a very successful social life and have only hobbies that benefit your real life. Are you trying to say that you are one of the worlds leaders, because your head is screwed on so straight, your shit doesn't stink and that you hold Doctoral degrees in philosophy, psychology, and many other areas, where you can tell us what is healthy and what isn't. I didn't think so. |
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12/08/06 3:02:52 PM#6
There are other games doing great things.
Why are all of thies about WoW? |
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12/08/06 3:04:12 PM#7
Very good article that applies to any team based online gaming. The same problems crop up in a shooter clan as in a MMO guild. I have always felt like a good group based MMO should feel like a team sport. I think FFXI managed to do this even at the regular XP group level. Timing secondary vokers with SATA and the magic burst on skill chains all took practice and a good group could really clean up. |
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12/08/06 3:14:01 PM#8
I wasn't trying to say that he didn't have good points or that he presented it poorly, I'm just saying that I've been gaming for years and already know this stuff. No need to re-read it. I'm a casual gamer by definition. I mentioned getting my third WoW char to 60, he's only 39 and it won't happen before my sub is up. After two years of playing I only have 2 60s, non of which are wearing anything tier1 or better.
I was stating my opinion of his piece. It's info that *I* already know and it's using mostly examples from a game that *I* am tired of hearing about. So I posted *my* opinion of his article. /shrug |
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12/08/06 3:37:49 PM#9
I enjoyed the article and do believe sometimes people need to realize that it is about personal fun and making friends. I read this and see why except for DAoC that I normally gave up when I hit endgame. The endgame no longer has the fun little groups I would enjoy because everyone is needing to raid and get the best gear. I am an explorer type so much prefer going all over and experiencing all the areas. I let people in the group I was a member of know that I was off and not sure if I would be back. I just get bored with doing raids. This is why I like DAoC though. The end game raids actually did show me why my efforts were needed. I wasn't doing raids for the best gear. I was doing it to make my side stronger or defend what my side had. I have to say that if my guild had not slowly left DAoC that I would probably still be there. I enjoy the stories that I find through quests and talking to NPCs. After that is over though then I am probably going to be leaving the game because the endgame does not interest me. If I find one like DAoC and a good guild that would probably change for me. I am understanding of the people who love the endgame and want to be the best. I am not one of them but have had friends who were. I have to say that it does seem to work the way the writer describes about learning to function and being properly prepared. I have to say though that I rarely have the block of time required to do raids either. I got jumped on for not showing up at a required raid by a guild on the EQ Progression servers for learning to work as a team. I had said up front that weeknights were a time I never knew if I was free or not. This is when I know the fun is not worth the hassle. |
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12/08/06 4:03:58 PM#10
Did you really just say that all of those things don't have a bearing on real life? Lets see, with gaming, what skills do you develop? Hmmm Hand-eye coordination, teamwork, creativity, and that's about it. Other things probably exist but are probably game-specific. Gaming is basically as helpful as watching TV. Now lets look at fishing, sports, woodworking, and many other hobbies. You build endurance, strength, mental endurance if you do any of these activities for an extended period of time, not to mention hand-eye coordination, teamwork, creativity, and skills that can actually help you to survive and adapt to conditions around you. If you want to expand your mind play something like Go or Chess. At least then you develop problem solving skills and quick thinking. The best way I could put it is by saying what someone once told me... "If the world had no power, what would you have to show for those hours of gameplay?" Hell if the world has power, what do you have to show? A bunch of pixels that take up space on a hard drive. Whereas if you practice a skill that is tangible and real, you have knowledge, know-how, and probably some kind of physical reward for doing it, whether it's a nice meal from the fishing, an athletic physique and great health from sports, or some furniture from wood working. From gaming all you have left are some 1's and 0's that would dissapear if the game did. Please for the love of humanity never compare gaming to "real world" hobbies again. --------------------------------------------- |
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12/08/06 4:53:30 PM#11
I'm sure your English teacher told you to avoid clichés. An informative and insightful editorial. |
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dorobu
 Novice Member
Joined: 8/03/03
"Maybe this world is another planet's Hell." |
12/08/06 5:11:29 PM#12
OMG! WoW's endgame sucks! Let's write ANOTHER article about it?! What? Do you have to have something up here by a date and can't think of anything original to do? Write about one of the other 200 games on your list FFS. I hate to flame but this is really getting out of hand.
-doro |
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12/08/06 5:17:03 PM#13
Great article.
I agree with most of it, I just don't know how it can be changed. I still stand firm that UO was the best MMO ever made and no game since has been able to include all the features in it. Altho now there's raiding which UO didn't have. UO was more commmunity and "empire-building" in the endgame...meaning that the end game was to build up your house that people could come and see or open a super mall etc. It wasn't as much about twinking your char with loot. Eve-online is empire-building oriented also but it still lacks something...dunno. Anyway, some company some day will get it right again. The nice thing about the community/empire building games is that you don't have to dedicate 6 hours in a row to get through an instance. My biggest problem with WoW raids wasn't total time involved, it was the continuous time blocks involved once you started a raid, if you wanted to get enough DKP for loot often enough, you were thre 6 hours. No going out for dinner or pausing to see a TV show. Another major problem is that if you aren't raiding, there isn't much else to do =/ EQ2 has a lot to do when not raiding as it has some community/empire building feeling to it, but the game mechanics kinda suck..and the company blows. Here's hoping for warhammer online =) Anyway just my .02 |
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12/08/06 5:30:41 PM#14
Some people have missed the point here.
The article isnt about wow alone it applies to all existing mmorpg games. 
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12/08/06 6:20:44 PM#15
Um, that was't what the article was about at all. Actually reading it might've helped. 
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12/08/06 6:27:10 PM#16
This article is 100% true, and I applaud the author for it.
Back in the early days of WoW, I ran a guild called "Azeroth Remnants" on Khadgar server. It started as a group of 30-some odd casual players, and gradually grew to about 60. At this point the trouble began because we were getting into our level 50s and a couple of players wanted to increase the size of the guild, for raiding purposes. It made sense, so we did. Forums were set up, raids were organized, rules were written. Eventually the hardcore raiders split off and formed their own guild, and Azeroth Remnants splintered when I quit the game. Why did I quit? Although I hadn't quite reached the endgame (level 58), I was close enough that it took me at least 3 hours each time I wanted to accomplish anything. PVP and raiding were barely more than repetitive grinds for "the best gear", and were less fun and more work. Ultimately it was a totally different game, and to me, wasn't worth the time or money. I suppose that makes me a casual player because I don't enjoy endgame grinds, but whatever. |
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12/08/06 6:58:06 PM#17
Best way to stay out of stupid trouble like this.... Don't do 25-40 man raids, that decides when you need to play, play when you want to play, after 1 year raidslave, it just caught me and found where the whole problem lied, playing because some stupid "meeting" told you to, from there on it's not a game anymore, it's only a game when you log on because you just felt like it, and wanted to play a LITTLE, and then stop playing an hour or so later. If i ever touch WoW TBC i'll only be doing Arenas or some 5-man instances with close friends, as soon you start raiding it's a not a real game anymore, this is ofcourse just my point of view cause, there are already enough of stuff in life to decide, when you have to be there, let wow and other games for that matter only be played, when YOU want to, not when the game wants to, if you know what i mean. A little instance for an hour or so, maybe 2 hours of Arena if you felt like spilling blood... WoW's raiding system is just not "relaxing" enough, especially not the class i play in wow, being tank sucks, if you want to just relax/lazy around. Teamspirit or not, you'll never really get to talk with all 39 people at the party anyway, other than maybe a "hi!" or "how are you doing?", else you'll really just be sticking to the interesting people... heh. |
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12/08/06 7:19:11 PM#18
So far, endgame in every mmorpg is basically the same. It's all raids. I did that in one game, and I'll never do it again. When the game starts to feel like a job, I quit. I love mmorpg's from level 1 to endgame. But endgame to me..is end. I would love to see a game come up with something else for endgame other than raiding, I have no idea what exactly, but anything but raiding. |
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12/08/06 7:39:05 PM#19
Great article and some thoughtful discussion (for the most part :-)) of the finer points of raiding, game design, and end game.
Souza's article did a good job of discussing both the strengths and limitations of World of Warcraft after hitting the level cap. It certainly reflects my experience and articulates why I ended up leaving the game: finally decided that the time I was spending massaging the various egos in the guild wasn't worth it and ended up "folding 'em." Thanks for a great thread. |
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12/08/06 7:39:08 PM#20
Many would simply point to smaller group sizes, such as endgame instances capped at 5 people. Unlike the author of this article seems to believe, raiding doesn't foster more social interaction; joining a raid guild means sacrificing a large chunk of your in-game relationships, shutting up, and taking orders from a bunch of morons who are unfit to lead. |
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12/08/06 7:56:08 PM#21
This article neglects to mention that places like McDonalds will pay you for 8 hours of work. Why would anyone want to pay to work at WoW?
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12/08/06 8:35:50 PM#22
The editorial is a moot point. Why? Simple Raid or Die is dead in WoW TBC will effectivly kill it and that isn't a bad thing. Blizzard realizes that killing the same dragon over and over and over and over and over and over again. is about as much fun as root canal without Novocain. TBC is the beginning ...the beginning of the end of Raiding The Elder game will be based on Non repeatable level based epic quest that require a small (As in Ten) group of friends. They will be able to do these quest in stages and in the end will receive a class specific epic for completing the quest. Bullcrap you say? Nope, heard this one from Tom Chilton the new Lead designer for WoW. See Tom hates Raiding, and was hand picked by Pardo and Metzen to fix the two years of Raid or Die that Jeff Kapplen forced upon the community. So while TBC will have 25 man Raids Expansion Pack Two (Which will be announced in March 2008) will pretty much eliminate Raiding. Good Riddance I say as raiding has done nothing to advance the genre since that Idiot Kapplen first started crying about it when EQ was all the rage. |
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12/08/06 10:01:13 PM#23
I despise raiding, I truly do. Not only due to the ridiculous time sink that it is, but the caste system it fosters. The whole haves and have nots, the elites vs the noobs, the hardcores vs the casuals. I absolutely hate that only one play style is ever given the best a game has to offer and to hell with everyone else, but I don't want to see it disappear. There is room in these games for many play styles, if the developers would just think outside of the raiding box and see that all play styles deserve the best rewards the game has to offer. If a person likes raiding, then who cares if you can get the same gear more easily in a solo quest or 5 man instance, they're going to raid. If they stop raiding, then that tells you the system is flawed and not fun. This preposterous idea that giving out equal rewards somehow demeans a different play style is the pipe dream of a hardcore developer. Everyone puts effort into their game play and should be rewarded for it. Just because a hardcore feels casual play is easy doesn't make it so for the casual player, its all relative to the player. The primary mistake that developers make currently is to compare play styles rather than see them as legitimate time investments in their own right. Sadly, the market is saturated with raiding as the only real end game. This needs to change and developers need to start treating all play styles as legitimate gameplay and deserving of equal representation in their games. |
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12/09/06 12:47:59 AM#24
Many would simply point to smaller group sizes, such as endgame instances capped at 5 people. Unlike the author of this article seems to believe, raiding doesn't foster more social interaction; joining a raid guild means sacrificing a large chunk of your in-game relationships, shutting up, and taking orders from a bunch of morons who are unfit to lead. /AGREE!!!!!!! |
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12/09/06 12:52:30 AM#25
This is awesome, AWESOME news! I hate raiding, but with stages to end-game instance quests, you don't have to repeat the same part of a instance over and over to get further in the next time...and ten people or less...I can get into that. I just might be able to play end game again!!! /cheers loudly. |
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