Interesting article Dan, it certainly drew a few gankers out of the woodwork, must be quite something to have an "editor" extolling the virtues of egoistical game play.

Or maybe it was just to light a few fuses, it certainly did that!! You know just by reading these forums how easy it is to start a war of words these days.... Guess what!! You succeeded!

The article was too inflammatory to create a discussion, but you already know that. Most players see the weaknesses of a game, we don't need telling how much fun it is to exploit them for selfish reasons.

Its really very sad that so many new players to MMORPGs see them as just consisting of collecting rat's tails or pvp. I would have thought that articles on this forum would at least have been enlightening, not endorsing something that ruins the game for so many! 

And what is one of the best (if not THE best) mmo comics saying about PvP/PK ?

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip068.html

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip070.html

Well, we've had a fair share of replies (I started mine around reply 14 or so, then decided to sit back and see if what I had posted would be brought up by others on the site, and it was. My main point was this is more of a case study of a sociopath rather than a stimulating discussion on the elements of PvP), and I feel comfortable making a few comments now...

First off, the logic that killing defenseless players is more fun than collecting rat tails is conditionally false. The condition in this case is how engaging the gameplay is. If the gameplay is fun, then it follows that gathering anything would be fun, as well. I have played games that were purely fun just to play, and some of them were indeed MMOGs. Any game that doesn't succeed in creating engaging gameplay is a failure, and allowing griefing is simply a way of concealing that fact, not to mention it is detrimental to human development (why exactly does a tool need to be given a playground to perfect BEING a tool?).

Secondly, there is really no reason not to implement some sort of penalty for griefing. If someone is skewed enough to get a thrill from ganking and corpse camping alone, then something should be done to deter it. We don't tolerate bullying in real life if we are responsible people, and we shouldn't tolerate it in games. This point comes through fairly clearly in the article. Unless a meaningful penalty for behaving badly is implemented, a player has two choices, accept it, or look elsewhere for their entertainment. For any company, not paying their monthly fee is like a collective kick to the balls of any griefer who plays the game and the company itself.

Finally, as some others have stated, I see no reason why an editor who submits caustic and insulting articles like this is allowed to represent a site as otherwise wonderful as MMORPG.com. I am sure that just by PMing various members of your site that write well, you could replace Dan quite easily with someone who could come up with interesting, thought provoking articles that promote great discussions that will fuel new innovations in the industry.

A big thanks to the folks who suggested I needed some psychological counseling since I recently checked myself into McLean Hospital to get some help with my narcissism and my complusive killing disorder. Things were going great until me and my new friend Peter (He was in for sexual misconduct so I'm guessing he was a high level Priest) saw this n00b mage kid with some nice gear we wanted. We ganked him but the GMs in white clothes caught us and hit me with some kind of root spell that looked like a funny vest.

Some crazy carebear tried to mezz me with needle but I grabbed it and stabbed her with the special attack I'd been saving up the whole time. Now I have to dictate my posts and articles to the floating typewriter that visits me in my padded cell...Gratz guys!

 

---

Originally posted by delateur
...

Secondly, there is really no reason not to implement some sort of penalty for griefing. If someone is skewed enough to get a thrill from ganking and corpse camping alone, then something should be done to deter it. We don't tolerate bullying in real life if we are responsible people, and we shouldn't tolerate it in games.

---

I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!

Yet, instead of that, all you people whine to the the devs and beg, implore, and even petition them to make your world a safer, easier, more consistent and predictable funpark without any 'real' trials or obstacles. It's the same kind of posts I see where class X is begging the devs to nerf class Y because they lost multiple times.

Ultimately, this whole line of thinking of getting the devs to make this perfect little world, where all classes are the same, where everything goes good all the time, is just going to lead to more and more never-ending everquests. The dynamic unpredictable SUSPENSEFULL environment just fades away.

Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?

WTF is wrong with you people who think its just fine and dandy to prey on weaker people. Do you even realize the impact you have on games, not only do you piss people right off (which im very sure is the response you want) but you destory the point of the game, which is to have fun. In normal life would you like someone richer than you always outbidding you on stuff you want not because he needs it just because he can and wants to make your life a misery. And if you think there is nothing wrong with humiliating an opponent after you defeat them, then why do all sport coaches teach there players not to be PRICKS after they beat another side.

And on the other side of the coin...

All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.

 

 

This article just pulled all the carebears out...griping and grieving. Props to the writer   KILL THeM ALL

 

 NatoB posted;

            

All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.

 

 Doesn't this mean you let the gankers win? Pvp servers could be fun, they add an edge to the game, plus guilds bond more, friends help each other out, planned raids could be fought, etc. Why should a few selfish players spoil this? Do they not have the skill to fight their own levels? 

I think all people are asking for is a penalty for unfair play. That seems such an easy solution and of course gankers can still gank, if they dare!!!               

 

 

 

 

---

Originally posted by velebnicek
And what is one of the best (if not THE best) mmo comics saying about PvP/PK ?
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip068.html
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip070.html

---

"We were pking in pong."

---

Originally posted by airhead

I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!

Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?

---

Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice.  That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength.  But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power.  By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.

(and please...no need to throw in the arguments about getting your friends/guildmates/realmmates to come help you... its weak to have to beg for help solviing your problems) 

Here's an idea.  How about we restrict combat to within a few levels, like most games try to set up.  For those people who gank lowbies for no benefit, how about the Dev's create a button that the lowbie can press that automatically kills the griefer... and takes his or her loot.  That sure would cut back down on lowbie killing.... and seems very fair to me. 

I won't buy the Role-playing arguement, most people are not really roleplaying, not matter what they think or say.  The jerk  behavior is a very real reflection on their real life personna.  Sure, they may not act on these impulses in RL, because there are consequences they will face.  Take away the consequences, like in a game world, and their true nature comes out.

 

---

Originally posted by Kyleran

---

Originally posted by airhead

I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!

Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?

---

Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice.  That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength.  But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power.  By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.

 

---

Oh Kyl... you are SO close... don't slide down the wrong side of the hill...

The reason it's not working now is because the DEVS have not given us the MEANS to enforce the justice desired.

There's really only two options here:
1. You can call upon the gods (the devs) to change the nature of the universe (the virtual world) in such a way that evil is punished by them.
2. You call upon the gods (the devs) to give you the means to setup your own morality in your own universe.

I clearly choose option-2. More immersion. More interesting. More fun (because it's more complex, ongoing, and entertaining). Who wants a god to do something when you can do it yourself?

the business of making games is just that:  a business.  the people behind the scenes decide, yes or no, that they are going to include PvP or not, include restrictions or not, etc etc.  whilst people argue that open-pvp is often to the demise of the game (particularly more so in north america) that is not a factual statement.  eve online is a thriveing example of the shining success a game can have when it includes a properly executed pvp system with all the inherent checks and balances that are necessary.  or, take darktide on asherons call.  that server has been around for what, seven years ?  it is pure open pvp, anyone, anytime....yet, darktide still has an excellent community.  so, the point of all this is to say that open-pvp can work and can definitely stimulate the community in more ways then one by adding another dimension to it.  so to answer the OP, i would say yes, it is the developers fault for not having the forsight to say "well, this element of our business, a pvp system without the proper checks, is flawed and we need to code this and this to fix it" but at the exact same time, there is flat-out no excuse for griefing and the people who engage in such behaviour should be pointed out and ostracized by the larger gaming population as a whole.  anyways, pvp rocks and griefers can suck it.

One of the questions the article raises is why developers put game mechanics in which allow this sort of behaviour. In the case of Ultima Online, the answers were set out by Raph Koster, one of the original lead designers, many times.

The developers hoped the players would develop a community and believed that to do this, they should have as much freedom as possible in terms of how they relate to each other. He writes: "Can an online community ever truly flower if it always has to turn to Dad to deal with problems?" (check out his website http://www.raphkoster.com)

They also hoped killers would come to understand that they were part of a community, ie people interacting with people rather than just playing a game. Which didn't mean they wouldn't kill at all, but they would behave in a way which was beneficial to the game rather than driving people away.

How exactly Koster thought that would happen I am not sure, but I suspect it meant killers would behave exactly not like Dan Fotier:)

This didn't work out quite as they hoped, which is why so few games have followed the original UO model since - they have switches, or large non PvP zones (not just the safe cities), which are really just different types of switch.

If we learned anything from Ultima Online's Felucca exodus is that carebears do *not* realise they they need people who pick on those less weaker and less able to defend themselves and humiliate them afterwards. It's not just Felucca - I remember playing UO when EQ was first announced, and there were two things that excited people and caused many to leave UO. One was the shiny 3d graphics and the second was the promise of no PKs!

You can try to argue that they were wrong and actually they do gain from being humiliated (personally I have never met anyone who benefitted from being humiliated - nothing wrong with losing but who actually benefits from humiliation?) However I don't think there's any evidence to suggest people *realised* they needed to be humiliated, and certainly no evidence is suggested in this article.

I'll make a prediction - most games in the future will do what most games do now, which is either to have no PvP, to have switches/non PvP zones or simply to divert the PvP to one or two servers out of the many they run. The reason they do this is, as the article rightly says, that if you allow people to behave in the way Mr Fotier says he behaves, they will indeed do it. Dad has learned he just can't trust us after all.

OK first let me state that i am a griefer now allow me to explain why i am the way i am
i was not always like this i at one point loved to play mmog's to have fun grinding and doing the PVE thing and absolutely hated games that allowed pking and i played games where pking was limited to certain areas and i played games that were pk anywhere anytime and although i didnt like pking i liked the game after awhile of being griefed i finally said enoughs enough and quit playing the game but i figured why should i quit playing something i enjoy
so i turned the tables on those who would grief me and hunted down their newbs and friends and slaughter them and in doing so i found untold joy in it and it went from the players that griefed me to me being the one doing the griefing to anyone i could find and it didnt have to be someone lower than me just the other day i was griefing a lvl 60 in WoW with my lvl 39 simply because he/she didnt know what they were doing and you know what i still enjoy doing it its like the old saying "if you cant beat them join them" thats the risk you have to accept if you r going to play on a pvp server or game and WoW has made it so if the other player is 10 lvls or more lower than u then u dont get any honor but u know what it doesnt stop me i still enjoy the fact that i can be "someone else" in the game than i am in RL thats the point of mmog's the ability to be or do someone or something that u cant do in RL take that away and theres no point in playing this is just my opinion and im sure i will be flamed for it but u have to take the good with the bad so let the flaming begin just remember it wont stop me from doing what i get my kicks from

I found this article pretty interesting Dan, and it definitely evoked some emotions from the readers. Well done!

 

The only point I'd like to discuss is in regards to what several posters mentioned earlier. I do believe you should be able to participate in PvP freely and openly in whichever manner you choose. However, I don't believe that just because you can that you neccesarily should.

You can hack whichever MMORPG you are playing at the time, but that doesn't mean you should. You  can run a botting application while you're afk from the game to make money, but it doesn't mean that you should. You can buy in-game currency from websites like IGE, effectively taking the easy way out of earning your own in-game money, but that doesn't mean that you should. Lastly, you can PK and corpseguard that player 30 levels lower than you, but it doesn't mean that you should

What I'm trying to say is that developers only have so much foresight when they release their products. It is my personal opinion that their biggest flaw in today's market is that they believe their consumers and players may have even the most fundamental core of morals and decency built into their persona, and that it's their HOPE that people won't use exploits, won't purposely grief, and won't look for ways to ruin other people's gaming experiences. This is a mistake; players today seem to have little to no regard for the feelings or well-being of their fellow players. Let's be honest here; compare the number of griefers in today's world with the number of griefers in the games say...5 years ago. I would certainly say there's a significant increase in the number, in my personal experience. I just don't think the devs have paid any attention to that rise in aggressive and malicious play-styles of their consumers.

Finally, I also must agree with what was mentioned at one point earlier in the thread. That is definitely the mindset of hackers, cheaters, and botters in-game, and rapists, killers, and thieves in real life. I don't believe it's wise to abuse privileges, because I know I will personally lament the day when game developers are merciless, and rule their games and T.O.S.' with an iron fist.

---

Originally posted by Cymdai

I found this article pretty interesting Dan, and it definitely evoked some emotions from the readers. Well done!

 

The only point I'd like to discuss is in regards to what several posters mentioned earlier. I do believe you should be able to participate in PvP freely and openly in whichever manner you choose. However, I don't believe that just because you can that you neccesarily should.

You can hack whichever MMORPG you are playing at the time, but that doesn't mean you should. You  can run a botting application while you're afk from the game to make money, but it doesn't mean that you should. You can buy in-game currency from websites like IGE, effectively taking the easy way out of earning your own in-game money, but that doesn't mean that you should. Lastly, you can PK and corpseguard that player 30 levels lower than you, but it doesn't mean that you should

What I'm trying to say is that developers only have so much foresight when they release their products. It is my personal opinion that their biggest flaw in today's market is that they believe their consumers and players may have even the most fundamental core of morals and decency built into their persona, and that it's their HOPE that people won't use exploits, won't purposely grief, and won't look for ways to ruin other people's gaming experiences. This is a mistake; players today seem to have little to no regard for the feelings or well-being of their fellow players. Let's be honest here; compare the number of griefers in today's world with the number of griefers in the games say...5 years ago. I would certainly say there's a significant increase in the number, in my personal experience. I just don't think the devs have paid any attention to that rise in aggressive and malicious play-styles of their consumers.

Finally, I also must agree with what was mentioned at one point earlier in the thread. That is definitely the mindset of hackers, cheaters, and botters in-game, and rapists, killers, and thieves in real life. I don't believe it's wise to abuse privileges, because I know I will personally lament the day when game developers are merciless, and rule their games and T.O.S.' with an iron fist.

---

 

Wow, exactly my thoughts. I think its sad how many people fail to see the point he tried to make and even the point he didnt make and wanted us to think a BIT about it.

BUT, its a subject that is built on some fundamental feelings, feelings that people are quick to respond to and then lose their reasoning (no wonder so many replies are just stupid, no offence).

Its like when you play and RPG and design one of those uber plots of doom(tm) and then you keep thinking "WTF ITS SO OBVIOUS, why cant the players figure it out !!!" or "Its not that obvious, but I gave you the tools to figure it out !"

Good article

 

Lets all go mug an old lady in the street, after all she is easy prey and it might be fun.......................But no,  there is a penalty!

Ok, you might be playing at being a griefer only because it's a game.............................But what about the real person out there, do you really want to spoil some ones game enough so that they leave? Forget the "Carebear" bit, ganking is unpleasant for many.

"It's a pvp server and anything goes!"  Surely you can't be so daft as to not realise, indiscriminate  griefing will only ruin pvp servers in the end. You'll all end up on a penal colony, running around ganking each other like lunatics! There's a big difference between pvp and ganking. Pvp is fun.

Dan's gabfest was created to cause discussion? I really don't think so! Even after trying to read between the lines. Every griefer can now quote from Dan's article, after all it's now was ok to go beat up players in the training grounds. MMORPGS are already rapidly losing their identity and it can't help when an editor make crass statements like " Speaking of victims, there is special relationship between the PKer and Carebear that transcends love and hate." Try to convince people who leave pvp servers in disgust of this. Dan you remind me of a bored "WoW" player.

My biggest annoyance with this article is, at this moment in time when so many MMORPGs are trying to cater to the masses, we really don't need an editor to encourage four year old behaviour (with or without too much sugar) otherwise we might just end up getting four year old games! We do need them to encourage authentic pvp.

 

 

---

Originally posted by ammie

 

 NatoB posted;

            

All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.

 

 Doesn't this mean you let the gankers win? Pvp servers could be fun, they add an edge to the game, plus guilds bond more, friends help each other out, planned raids could be fought, etc. Why should a few selfish players spoil this? Do they not have the skill to fight their own levels? 

I think all people are asking for is a penalty for unfair play. That seems such an easy solution and of course gankers can still gank, if they dare!!!               

 

 

 

 

---

I know this is what is meant to happen, but, it isnt going to happen, do you htink these big game studios care if one of us quit because of these people. They dont, they lose 1 player and gain 50. What i am trying to say is if you really really hate this happening to you stay away from the problem. I hate it to but i really dont care, i use the same tactic i have always used when it comes to idiots like gankers, ignore the dweeblets. I enjoy my PvP as much as the next guy.

If you guys want a good game to go play PvP, where skill is tested and not gear and level. I reccomend you play Guild Wars. And on the plus side the developers of this game made sure that no ganking can happen :D

Cymdai has finally advanced this discussion to where carebears and PvP'ers can together impact the direction of MMOs.

I think that in these game company boardrooms, every minutae of PvP and PvE is discussed. I don't believe that anything is put into a game intentionally without complete discussion of the ramifications of that particular feature. They think that our sense of morals will translate into in-game behavior, and I think that is true.

With that said, I think that the developers and designers are working with a flawed interpretation of the moral status of its players. I think they're using the moral compass of the aging Generation-X'ers to develop their PvP systems. While this ideal might have worked in 2000, they are not factoring in 6 years of jaded experiences by the long-time players, nor the declination of moral values and overall immaturity of Gen-Y'ers and Gen-Next'ers.

Like it or not, developers are designing(or not designing) PvP ethics and enforcement systems based on an antiquated version of perceived morality code. They need to (sadly) abandon the ideal of player-enforced PvP ethics and develop their PvP systems to eliminate the griefers from the legitimate PvP'ers.

I'm not going to pretend that I have an easy solution to this. It's sad that I've come to a point that I'm willing to give up my dream of honorable PvP in favor of rules that eliminate the ganker playstyle.

I do think that develpers can add PvP elements that foster honorable PvP, such as arena tournaments that include games like 1v.1, 2 v.2 and last man standing battle royales that are moderated by admins. Victors are given a special item only attainable in the arena such as a championship belt that serve as visual prestige and provide a useful general ability. Breaking or exploiting the rules in this environment could be virtually eliminated just by the nature of the event.

My rule is this: You join a PVP game/server, prepare to be slaughtered. There shouldn't be any mercy for you if you join something with a ruleset like this. Thats why there are PVE servers (hopefully). Stop whining, it's your choice to play.

Yes there are dicks, but thats just the way things are.

This guy sounds like an asshole, but I agree with him. Good article.