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News & Features Discussion  » General: The Return of the Saturday Debate

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Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

OP  11/11/06 11:20:10 AM#1

The debates get back under way with a new one on the ethics of open PvP servers from Dave Bonnewell and Dan Fortier. Check back Saturdays for new debates and please, if you have anything you want discussed, let us know in the comment thread!

Dave Bonnewell: In the words of the late great writer/philosopher George Santayana, Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is with this very reasoning in mind that we wish to revisit an event which sent shock waves throughout the online gaming community. It was six months ago in World of Warcraft's PvP Winterspring server that an in game virtual funeral being held for the real life death of a young WoW fan. This serene memorial was interrupted by a mass ganking of all 50 or so attendees by a less than serene 20 player Alliance guild calling them selves 'Serenity Now'.

The whole debate is here.

Jon Wood
Managing Editor


Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/05/03
Posts: 138

I get high cause @#$% it, whats better to do?
And Ima never give a @#$%, cause Im better than you.

11/11/06 12:23:23 PM#2

I remember hearing about this, and I don't see what the debate is about.  It was a despicable act by people who wanted to do something despicable.  Should it have been allowed, or should there be some repercussion? 

In an open PvP enviroment, it has to be allowed or else it wouldn't be open PvP.  If the devs wanted to institute some sort of "Holy Ground" system for events like this then fine, but until then people will have to deal with these kinds of things. 

There can't be any repercussions for things like this because it would set a bad precedent.  Killing someone who is mourning the loss of a friend is obviously dishonorable, unless you're a sociopath.  Punishing players for something that is considered dishonorable would leave too much grey area though.  Attacking someone who was having an in-game wedding would also be dishonorable, but should that be punished too?  Those are decisions I'm sure the dev team or GMs wouldn't want to make.

So in all, there is nothing to that can be done that wouldn't give rise to more problems.  That said, PvP servers are not a place for people who value honor or morality.  You'll only end up abandoning your honor and values or just becoming frustrated.  If you allow players to randomly kill people on the street, they will randomly kill people on the street.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 1133

11/11/06 12:30:33 PM#3

I think it's funny.

Is there anywhere we can get a video of it? Preferably on the Horde side, or whoever was getting ganked.



Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 675

11/11/06 12:50:28 PM#4
It is the nature of people to be jerks. If you are going to do this on a pvp server have it is a somewhat safe place or hire guards. Of course with a whole guild fighting even with guards it just would have been mass battle. The best plan would have been to make up 1st lvls on a pve server.

Also I think wow is not pvp enough. Meaning you can't have in faction fighting. Finding themselves facing not only the other side but their own as well might have caused a different outcome for gankers.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/03
Posts: 1110

11/11/06 1:43:47 PM#5

Originally posted by Akunai

Attacking someone who was having an in-game wedding would also be dishonorable

I think having an in-game wedding would be dishonorable, except maybe if the two are a couple in life. Otherwise, I'd PK em in a heartbeat


Advanced Member

Joined: 2/18/04
Posts: 1388

11/11/06 2:14:22 PM#6

If you bring real life seriousness into a game.... You will have to, no matter circumstances, count on that some people are still only playing a game. If you want as many guarantess as you can possibly get that people around you take real life seriousness serious.... Then do them in real life, not inside an entertainment venue.

I think its a sick and twisted thing to do, sure.... But I am not surprised, and I am not exactly condemning it either. I have had two deaths in my social circle in the time I have been plahying WoW. Not one of them have I pulled into the game and its players, because I know it would not get the respect those people deserved, and I would be the one at fault for bringing thier lives and tragic ends to be a conversation piece inside a computer game.

Both sides are at fault here. One did wrong yes.. but the other gave them the opportunity to do so, as well. They walked in to be targets, willingly.

"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"


Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 636

I will always miss pre-CU but I still enjoy the game.

11/11/06 3:07:13 PM#7

Griefers are to be expected in any game no matter what the circumstances are surrounding events that are held.

I don't understand why some people have so much fun bringing misery to others but that's life, virtual or real.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4

11/11/06 4:13:59 PM#8
I've read the editorial, and have read all of the comments based on that editorial, with a bit of confusion.  Are we really debating the morality of someone's actions on a PvP server?   Is that even possible to do?

The folks who attacked the 'funeral' were in no way wrong.  I can't believe Bonnewell (I hope that's his name) was even a little serious?  Calling them all kind of names, including dishonorable, because they attacked other players on a PvP server is beyond my comprehension.

Everyone, it's a game.  Gathering to mourn someone online is just strange.  In the real world, we attend funerals and wakes and send flowers and cards.  That's the appropriate forum for expressing condolences and grief over someone's tragic passing, especially the passing of young person.

To hold a wake on a PvP server is stupifying to me.

Bravo to those who were playing the game that evening, and not engaging in some odd mourning ritual.

Novice Member

Joined: 8/09/03
Posts: 15

Live every day as if it were your last because one day it will be.

11/11/06 4:56:37 PM#9

Sorry.  I couldn't help but laugh at the mass ganking incident. 

On a more serious note:  When an invdividual chooses to start an avatar on a PvP server isn't there a 'PvP Clause' that pops up WARNING players what type of server/shard they are choosing to play on?  I'm sure there is. 

Anyway, I'm an avid fan of open PvP servers (I'm not a griefer btw) and enjoy the challenge of death being around every corner.  That's what I signed up for- the EXTRA danger, excitement, joy, pain, sorrow and whatever else that comes with that server.

Thinking back to DAoC, I recall doing numerous EPIC fights and having rival guilds come to gank, grief, kill-steal and even harass the scheduled event.  Does the server Mordred ring a bell?  PvP is what you signed up for and that's what you should get- NON STOP!!! 

Getting killed on horseback, on boat, immediately after teleporting or zoning into an area is the norm on PvP servers.  Besides, there are designated havens where PvP is not allowed.  Why not hold a funeral in that area instead of in an open field with full-fledged PvP?  Doesn't make sense to me- you are in a PvP area and you are subject to getting killed at ANY moment.

Play smart and you won't have to worry about being/getting griefed.  I really do feel bad for the people that got killed while attending the funeral but come ON- in an open PvP area?  Sheesh. 


Advanced Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 148

11/11/06 5:09:34 PM#10

I think a lot of it has to do if you view your MMORPG and roleplaying games as a alternative life or as a game. A roleplaying game in itself is a bit of a oxymoron since a roleplay is designed to be a alternative life or situation simulation, while a game is designed to be something carefree where actions don't have consequences outside the game.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/04
Posts: 913

Boom goes the dynamite!

11/11/06 5:20:27 PM#11
Some people just like drama to fall right on top of them. If you want a guaranteed peaceful funeral to pay respect to a friend then do it some place that is guarded by your faction and only discuss such events amongst your friends. Bringing such information to the public ( a time a place ) makes you a target. Do it on a non pvp server. Do it in you factions city. Do it in a very low traffic area. If you must, bring muscle. It was avoidable. The horde were taunting the alliance to attack them and/or naive enough to think they would get left alone.

I know I'm not the only one that has noticed the WoW community is filled with the most annoying, disrespectful, ignorant, and childish individuals...heck most of them are kids.

The Alliance were a bunch of jerks but the horde were the idiots in this situation.

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/26/06
Posts: 173

11/11/06 5:25:15 PM#12
Im confused, ive played on WOW for yrs, (Ursin PVP server) and to my knowledge, you can only PVP in certain zones. Why hold something like this or a wedding etc in a PVP zone ? Starter zones, where major cities are, you cant be attacked by the opp side unless you are flagged or attack first ... so there are places to hold such things and not worry about being PK'd IMHO.  Yeah I think its terrible if they knew what was going on and attacked everyone anyways, but I have to say, there are places to do such events and not worry about such things happening. 

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 4514

why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?

11/11/06 5:30:57 PM#13
Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?

um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan. 

terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims?  fanatical assassins?  real life "monsters" if you will.

these weren't terrorists, they were little children/basement dwellers/idiotswithnolives that couldn't stfu for one bloody hour so someone could make a video to show the dead girl's parents?

maybe people are shocked because well, it was immoral and unethical and yes some people in America still have both of those and would probably have kicked the living dog mess out of street trash that would do such a thing.

could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?


Staff Writer

Joined: 6/12/06
Posts: 261

Dan Staff Writer

11/11/06 6:11:32 PM#14

Originally posted by damian7
Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?

um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan. 

terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims?  fanatical assassins?  real life "monsters" if you will

The answer to that would be a NO.


Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of or its management.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/05
Posts: 224

Die trying

11/11/06 6:14:06 PM#15
I can understand the why when it comes to holding the funeral ingame.

But why not do it on a pve server then it wouldnt have been this messy.

Problem with pvp server is that there is no community trying to prevent gankers in this kind of event or prevent low lvl gankiing close to towns at least in wow.

l2 has worked that out better imo.
I know that if i would have been playing on that pvv server i wouldnt have attacked but thats me.

zeronizer Xfire Miniprofile

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/06
Posts: 69

11/11/06 6:52:37 PM#16 this "debate" for real?

This has to be a joke?

For the sake of 'who knows what' I will go ahead and try to formulate some sort of thought concerning this event.

1- Games are for gaming.....not memorial services

2- Find a freaking safe place like the throne room or something

3- In the attempt to find an appropriate would be like a bunch of Americans in the desert wastes of Iraq near the Iranian border having a funeral service.  The similarites start with the fact that peple are dumb creatures in the first place to do something so stupid and not to expect anything bad to happen.  The only difference being that when the terrorists attack those is truly a tragedy because it's real.  This is a freaking game....

aaahh...nevermind anything I said....I can't believe I'm wasting brain cells on this.  It's a game...on a pvp server.  Go somewhere else for your real life needs.  Don't bring your life in to the game and then expect everyone else to suddenly change the way the game is played to appease you.  If they did it would be nice...but to expect it is like waving your hand at the computer screen and thinking you actually have jedi powers while you say "You will not attack....You Will Not Attack....YOU WILL NOT AT.....*splat*  Why did they attack me?  Then your shoulder angels appear on your shoulders and both finally agree on one thing.....YOU'RE AN IDIOT!

Disclaimer:  Not an idiot for having a memorial service or whatever...that's kinda nice in it's own right.  But to expect other people not to attack on a pvp server.

Did these writers actually get paid for this debate?  Where do I sign up for that gig? j/k  The writers do a good job....I'm just jealous


Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/06
Posts: 69

11/11/06 7:08:47 PM#17
A better debate would be to what extent does open PVP enhance or hinder the overall gaming experience.  In that kind of debate you could bring up this instance in your discussion...but to imply ethics in this current debate is silly.

Staff Writer

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 494

11/11/06 7:14:11 PM#18
I actually thought it was a very cool idea. Look at how much hate they have generated over this. It makes them villains in the classic sense. The "good guys" have too much respect and honor to attack even thier most hated enemy during a wedding or a funeral, but the "bad guys" have no such compunctions. If I wanted to roleplay an evil villain, I can think of no better way to generate infamy than disrupting a ceremony others consider sacred.

And yes it is a game. And it took place on a PVP server. You would have to be extremely ignorant not to expect something like that, and extremely egotistical to think everyone else should behave the way you want them to.

Agent_X7 AKA J Star
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of or its management.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 4514

why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?

11/11/06 7:18:09 PM#19

Originally posted by Danmann

Originally posted by damian7
Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?

um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan. 

terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims?  fanatical assassins?  real life "monsters" if you will

The answer to that would be a NO.


 after reading that article... doesn't sound like actual terrorists, sounds more along the lines of freedom fighters or rebels (depending on your point of view).  thought i might've missed it, so i did a control+f and couldn't get past "ter"... the word terrorist/terorist/or any other typo i could think of appears to be NOT on this page.

so what do rebels/freedom fighters/whatever they're called, have to do with terrorists and terrorism?

but, thanks for playing.  you may pick up your sign on your way out the door. 

could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?


Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/06
Posts: 4

11/11/06 7:32:40 PM#20

I think if the deceased could back and comment on this issue, the comment would be not to waste your time worrying about the "ethics" of computer games, because, eventually, you frigging die, and you'll want that time back.

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