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10/29/06 5:45:30 PM#61
Seriously, whine much? How sad is it that this guy played a time sink for so long? Talk about clueless gamer with too much time. If WOW is a repetative time sink, how could he play Eve without blowing his head off? THAT'S a repetative waste. But this is MMORPG.com. You must worship Eve;)
For being treated badly, he sure is a sucker for playing. |
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10/29/06 5:49:47 PM#62
Heh. The problem isn't raids or much of anything that can be fixed. WoW is basically flawed in design and doomed to continue to be flawed because the "fix" would alienate those who are used to the current version. Sure, it sells. That doesn't mean it is a good design. If it was a good design you wouldn't have WoW being gridlocked into making new content for level 60's just to keep the game interesting. The core problem is that the game lets players build up to level 60 with no real cost to them. Sure, you die and you have to run to get your body, but what kind of a cost is that? Time is what the game is made to burn. That's not a death penalty. You don't lose items. Oh carebears, this violin is for you. If you actually lost items the game might be worth playing. Oh, wait, the game is trying to be for both carebears AND hardcore players? Yeah, that will work. NOT. No one has ever lost the game playing WoW. If there were winners and losers there wouldn't be a problem with content drives for the poor level 60 players charity ball. Case in point: ave you ever heard of any problems in arcade games with high content or players getting bored with the game? No, because the goal of the game i sto keep playing the game and dying in hopes of getting the high score. But if the game is giving different players a different advantage, then of course those who have the advantage (hardcore) are going to "ruin" the game for those who don't (carebears and those with a life outside the game). Now, if you still want to allow for the diversity of player power and item powers, then the best way to prevent level bloat and the need for constant higher level content (aka, grinding) is to introduce permanent death. I'm sure you guys won't go for that, so I';ll just stop here. Face it, the prolbems of WoW are not going anywhere. The only thing left to do is to live with what WoW provides or wait until something better comes along. Right now there isn't such a thing as something better than WoW (sadly). Personally, I'll wait for something better. WoW isn't it for me.
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10/29/06 6:32:39 PM#63
hey bro i remeber you from eq2 i think, names haggly, i grouped with you a ton of tmes playing eq2 and two worlds |
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10/29/06 6:41:05 PM#64
i think maybe if the zones would be instanced tnhen there would be no quarral over who gets the boss drops and loot, the bottom line would be what group was sucessful at playing there class in there group and working with the group to take down the boss. playing eq2 and two worlds |
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10/30/06 1:39:28 AM#65
hey bro i remeber you from eq2 i think, names haggly, i grouped with you a ton of tmes no you didn't, I haven't played Everquest 2 in many months, nor did I group with the same person more then once :) |
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10/30/06 5:01:55 AM#66
Sorry but I have to completely agree with this poster. I never really post here but I do read every new story on WoW , EVE and Planetside. MMORPG.com has been VERY anti-WoW for a long time now.
About this arcticle, well all it does is open the casual vs hardcore conversation again. Truth is that all the casual players want to enjoy their time with their gf/kids/wife/friends but when they log on to WoW they wanna be gods there aswell. Sorry buddys but that's not possible. You wanna be good with something --> Spend time on it and don't just whine that's it's unfair the hardcore raider is full of epix while all you can get is some blues.
Also someone said that the PvP gear isn't really worth it, well pre-Naxx my friend most items were still on-par with the gear from raid instances. But getting the gear from PvP again isn't something that you can do in 2 days, it takes time...which casual players don't want to/can't spend.
The last persons that should be whining about the expansion should be casuals. Being in closed beta myself I've seen greens that get close to BWL epics, only persons that are getting dicked over with the expansion are all those that worked hard so far and have to replace everything with blues from the new instances. Now I don't mind that much, it's a nice fresh start but don't expect that anything is going to change, those that put more time in it will still beat you.
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10/30/06 7:37:51 AM#67
a lot of people hate world of warcraft not because they hate the game but rather because they hate the fact that every other mmorpg thats been made or is being made falls short when compared side - side with world of warcraft. WoW has its flaws such as the lack of solo or small group content beyond 60 (aside from grinding highwarlord which I have already done) but they are trying there best to address this issue in the up-coming xpac. Aside from these flaws in the game world of warcraft is hands down the best mmorpg ever made. It is extremly easy to play, very smooth / polished, has just the right amount of questing when lvling without over doing it, is graphicaly pleasing, excellent itemization with reason to play and play to get the best gear and it has such a fun feel to it. Personaly ive played the crap out of wow have full tier 2~2.5 and was a high warlord, aside from raiding naxx until its killable with my guild there isnt much left for me to do in the game but everytime I put wow down and try some of the new mmo's (I give ever beta a shot since the dawn of time) I dont find myself wanting to play these new games past 3-4 days of playing and I end up lvling yet another alt char in world of warcraft. Say what you will about the game but noone can deny its success and it has its success for good reason. You cant hold it against blizzard for the fact noone has made a game to draw away from there customer base. I could think of some things to be changed in wow to make it better but I still feel its the best developed mmorpg to date. |
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10/30/06 8:08:52 AM#68
Not sure how you manged to work this out, 80% of the world WoW playerbase had never played a MMO before. WoW was nothing more than a copy of every MMO that came before it, even doing some things a lot worse than the older MMOs. It's what Blizzard do best, copy. And don't spout rubbish back that WoW must have done something right to get all those new players playing because the people joined on mass for one reason alone, it was Warcraft and had nothing to do with the game it just sucked in all the b.net kiddies.
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10/30/06 8:11:17 AM#69
A good editorial which for once mostly mirrors my opinions, however I really don't see the expansion bringing much new to the table its pretty much more of the same, with the addition of socketing which will create even more balance issues. I think at this point Blizzard have pretty much jumped the shark it seems to be all about money now I think whats good for the gamers is not neccessarily good for Blizzard so the Blizzard way wins (even though it doesn't need to with all the addicts out there)
For this game to be able to function as a 'True' MMORPG there needs to be several addtions to the game, for example much more exploration and that means LOT more landmass, more regard for the casual gamer with perhaps random instances like EQ. There needs to be more options to customize the look of characters (Armor dyes at the minimum), Guild and Personal house are also required to store all those trophies you get :), crafting needs to be revamped , a simple start would be to remove BOP on class items such as Truefaith Vestments, whats the point of paying a lot og gold for a substandard item that only you can wear ? I really hope Blizzard give more than lip service ti casual/non raid layers in the expansion but..... I think the main focs of BC will be PvP in an attempt to stave off the obvious subscriver losses when games like Warhammer hit the shelves, its all about the dollar again, Blizzard seem to have forgotten that keeping the customer happy will help them retain the majority of their player base. As it is now Blizzard have people because of the fact that the name itself still generates a lot of good will, and the fact that the gamei is fun and easy to play to 59, after that it all changes, I hope 61 - 69 generate the same amount of fun for people otherwise subscriptions will slump. |
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Dajmin
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/29/05
Xfire: Dajmin |
10/30/06 8:14:32 AM#70
I don't think any of this is due to the game as much as it is to the players. Everybody is obsessed with getting to the highest level as quickly as possible and getting the "best" gear before anyone else. So of course if you want to do that you're going to be covering the same ground over and over again. That said, it's also shortsightedness by the developers. New games are released with practically no end-game content because they don't think that people will ignore the lore and environment and go straight for the grind. They should know better by now. Because what you get then is a rushed expansion to try to prevent players quitting and going elsewhere. EQ2 has only been out a couple of years now and already has a handful of expansions, the first of these was within a few months because of the lack of end-game content in the original. So basically it comes down to this: If you're a game developer who refuses to admit that the above kind of player exists, you have no right to complain when they leave. Learn from what's already out there. The day a game is released which has an actual balance between hardcore and casual players, that doesn't require farming to improve equipment and that remains new and innovative after 60 levels, we'll hav eachieved perfection. 
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10/30/06 9:05:41 AM#71
As a casual player I think its perfectly fine for raiders to have better gear than me...but it seems that the difference in gear is far too high to make pvp fun. You get to 60..then find out you have to ditch your small guild where you've made friends over the past few months if you ever want to get access to MC etc. That sucks right there..then you end up in some MC farming guild where noone cares who the hell you are, only what your class can do for them on a regular basis during raids. So you spend months and countless hours farming some gear...then the expansion comes out and your gear suddenly becomes a lot less valuable....not quite worthless but definitely not enough to keep you pvp'ing....so you'll have to go do it all over again.
There are many things I love about WoW...and I've been playing it off and on since just before release day...but the gear differences are just pissing me off now. Its really bad when you get these little idiots with even less of a life than you who think having tier 2 gear makes them superior to you....don't they realize that actually having tier 2 gear just advertises what a loser you are in rl? heheh |
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10/30/06 10:05:17 AM#72
"If these attacks on WoW continue with as much regularity as noob complaints appear on the official site's boards, I'll have to say that I will no longer trust MMORPG.com as a source of unbiased information."
I gave up on the editorials after about a week of reading them. "Piercing insights to MMORPG design" and such proved to be nothing of the sort. So I simply read the site for interviews and information, and skip 99% of the editorials. Then I come read one, and remember why. I must express my deepest sympathy for Hasani, and all the rest of you that have spent so much of your lives dedicated to misery. WoW drives you to such burning fury, such deep depression, and makes you weep for your time wasted. I wish that it were not the case that Blizzard sent armed goons to each and every subscriber's house, and forced them to play. I wish that you had enjoyed at least a moment of your two years playing WoW. I sympathize deeply that you enjoyed yourself not a moment. I wish you could have been playing all those *other* mmorpgs that are far far superior to WoW. Like...Um...EQ 2! Yes, EQ 2! With voice acting. Seriously. It's suddenly become the in thing to hate WoW, have always hated WoW, never enjoyed WoW, and always told people WoW would suck. WoW is fun. It's hellaciously fun in some cases, and annoying in others. It's an MMORPG, which as yet haven't gotten beyond their own limits. It's a video game, which means it has ups and downs. But as much as everyone tries to hide it, people enjoy playing WoW. And *you* enjoy playing WoW, or you wouldn't continue to do so. If you *do* keep playing it, despite not enjoying yourself, perhaps you need to look at your own psychology, not the game. Here's a simple fact that would save people a lot of grief: You can play an MMORPG, enjoy it, then quit. People grow unnaturally attached to the game. "But I've played it for a year! I can't quit now! I would have wasted a year!" Did you enjoy your time during that year? Yes? There you go. If you take a two week vacation to Italy, do you say "I can't leave Italy now! If I do, I've wasted all the money I spent here, and two weeks of my life!"? No, you say "Wow, that was great. I'll have some good memories." When you finished FFVII, did you bemoan your time lost? No, you reveled in the time spent! How many of you, honestly, wouldn't have paid $15 a month to play FFVII? It's a game. You play what you like. You have fun. If you aren't playing, you move on. You try to help it improve, if you feel it doesn't, you leave. Oh, and yes. Blizzard games are delayed. It's a fact of life. There is a choice between deadlines and quality. Blizz picks quality. Some companies pick deadlines. Both have downsides. Who am I? |
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10/30/06 10:08:48 AM#73
if your nephew of 10 years is playing so much WoW that he is able to reach rank 9 in the PvP ladder then he is being allowed to sit on the computer way too much imho.
on the article itself i for one am excited about the expansion. one of the few problems in the WoW world setting for me is its static nature (inn in westfall anyone? when is it gonna get finished?) but the expansion doesnt seem to do much for that which is too bad. |
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10/30/06 1:28:28 PM#74
Returning to the question "how do you make sure a casual server is casual?" for a minute...
They could bring back the original Rest State modifier system. In addition to the current experience bonus when a character is fully rested, the system originally was going to apply a negative modifier if a character was played for more than a few hours. Originally posted by brianmanIf you wanted to go hardcore on a casual server under that system, the best way to do it would be to start additional characters and play them in alternation with the first one, so that all are rested up when they are played.
They could fix that by restricting how much gear and money would carry over when a character transfers to a casual server. But is someone who was formerly hardcore really going to be that annoyed by other hardcores, just because he or she has less time to play now? It'd be easier to stay on the original server and just play less.
After a few hours of play, they'd be getting less and less reward per kill. Then they'd need to log out in an inn and let their characters rest off the fatigue for a few hours. If they managed to fit their harvesting into that schedule, then apparently it's within reach of casual players anyway. |
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10/30/06 10:56:03 PM#75
Speaking of balance, or maybe not, but whatever happened to Epic Characters, or Prestige Characters or whatever it was your character was supposed to be able to evolve into that still hasn't happened, and doesn't look to be in the cards of the expansion either? Wouldn't that mix things up a bit? Make things more interesting? Anyone know what happened to that great idea?
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10/31/06 1:10:25 PM#76
ya I remember what you are talking about way back when game first came out there was talk about eventualy being able to become a "hero" class with a given character after achieving who knows what. They probaly put this idea on hold blizz has stated they would liek to do an xpac per year for world of warcraft so this could 1 day be a possibility but it isnt in the near future thats for sure.
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10/31/06 1:55:09 PM#77
Here is the point I wanted to make about your post: The thing with Lineage 2 was, the purpose of the grind was to own a castle and PvP to keep it. The purpose of the WoW grind is to grind some more. Why grind up rank to wear the PvP gear? So you can grind up rank and wear the epic PvP gear! Why grind for weeks through MC for the first set? So you can grind for weeks through BWL and then weeks through AQ. The Lineage 2 grind was a crime, but it had a point. Sure, you hit level 75 and own the best castle for a month and the boredome sets in...but such is life. In WoW leveling the first time, for me, was fun and fast-paced. Then I hit 60 and all that was left was to grind faction, rank or raid gear...so you could grind more of those. At first I did raids to get better gear to PvP, but then Blizzard all but removed PvP from the game with the "PvP" instance grind. |
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NatoB
Novice Member
Joined: 10/18/06
if dreams are like movies then memories are films about ghosts |
11/02/06 3:00:56 AM#78
I really dont know what all you guys/ladies are complaining about, this is a "game". A "game" is meant to be a fun experience, not a lifestyle. And btw all "games" are like this, if you wanna play a "game" and be the best at it, you have to play and play LONG HOURS to get better at it. Take Guild Wars for example, when you reach the end game(LvL 20) the only thing left to do is PvP, and the only way to get better at it is to go "skill farming" and "weapon farming". This takes hours upon hours upon hours of gameplay to just get the one skill/weapon you want. But it doesnt end there, take the original role playing games like D&D on paper. There it took years to get your character to get the best equipment and better levels. (knows from personall experience So if you want to be "casual" about a game, expect to get "casual" results. If you want to be "dedicated/hardcore" to a game, expect these people to get better results. Personally i think Blizzard is doing a good job, i have loved all their games (StarCraft, WarCraft 1-3, WoW, etc.), no matter how long it takes for one to come out. And btw Blizzard isnt the only studio to delay and delay their expansions and so forth, take Sierra with Half Life 2, they delayed that game for AGES, yet when it came out DAMN WHAT A GOOD GAME, it was worth the wait. Wouldnt you want more of the bugs that you find with WoW to be fixed, if you think its an easy thing to do then go apply for a job at Blizzard and help everyone stop damn complaining. And remember no game is perfect no matter what you think.
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11/02/06 9:53:11 AM#79
Maybe we're complaining because we're sick and tired of the old paradigms, either way, we have the right to complain, to voice our opinions and to express our dissatisfaction with a product that we pay to play. This is a given right to all consumers over any product. Businesses are proud to state 100% satisfaction guarantee or your money back, so why not with MMO's? Most of them don't let you "Try out" their product before buying at least not till its been out for a year or longer, so the risk is higher in paying for a flop. Add onto that the good chance that gameplay will change over the course of the game and many times it changes in ways that are detrimental to a large part of the subscriber base. How many MMOs out there started out casual only to become hardcore, not just in a raiding sense, but in ridiculous amounts of artificial time sinks. I'll tell you how many, they all started out as either hardcore or became hardcore over time, every single one of them. Why? Because the devs are either clueless or just plain lazy to come up with a casual paradigm for a MMO. They probably think the effort to program casual content isn't worth the revenues it might or might not earn. Whatever the case may be, hardcore will most likely be the content of choice for a very long time and it may never change from that old and outdated formula. That is why I no longer subscribe to these pieces of tripe that have the gall to call themselves games or entertainment software. Currently, MMO's are the venue of nerds and no-lifers. When a MMO comes out that actually embraces the mainstream player, then I might consider going back, till then they can rot in hell for all I care. I will not support these MMO companies that treat their customers like nerdish junkies on crack. |
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11/02/06 11:09:23 AM#80
I wanted to give my opinion about this "It's like in real life, if you work more you get more" argument that I find extremely flawed.
First, I don't really care if my neighbour has 3 cars, a bigger house, a boat and what not, because he's not waving them in front of me to send me to a graveyard in less than 10 seconds. If hardcore raiders want to spend countless hours in an instance to get gear so they can spend countless hours in next instance ad vitam eternam, fine, really good for them... It's the impact on PvP that bothers me. In my book, PvP should mean testing your SKILL as a player to overcome something else than a scripted mobs you can read hints and tips about pretty much everywhere on relevant web sites. Not a showcase of how many hours you've spent. If "playing more" meant "getting more" as in CHOICE of items instead of "getting better", that could probably solve the issue. For the same reason I can't agree either when people say "Gear HAS to get better in terms of stats". Instances don't need to get harder in the sense of requiring tougher stuff, balancing them so they still represent a UNIQUE challenge is completely feasable. Yes I'm completely aware that being able to overcome a live opponent without the slightest effort may seem very seducing to some, however guess what, PvP ranks are based on something called "Honour", might as well give that word some meaning back in WoW. When I got busted by a full "T2+perdition blade+core hound" rogue who burned Vanish on my Faerie Fire TWICE in a ROW (yes you read right) I found that very VERY wrong. Second, when you have more/better stuff in "real life", you also pay higher taxes for ownership. I don't mean repair costs. In WoW, both the hardcore and the casual will be charged the same to access their account. Third, and that is slightly off-topic though it's still against that logic, there are countless jobs with scary working hours and lousy wage. As a side note about the expansion, I'm actually curious to see how gimped one might become without getting the CD. If not owning BC means less content as in less choice (which IMO makes sense and is perfectly normal, like it should be for every game) then fine... However I guess this is all wishful thinking. |
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