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9/30/06 8:04:59 PM#21
PVP debate? that was definately a weak debate. While I am pro pvp I fully understand the need for pve in todays market with the pve server clearly showing more people it would be stupid for any MMO maker to not set it up the way most of them do with both types of servers.With WOW and 7million subscribers you would think they could afford to put some code in to stop the 10 level below you ganking though. There will never be anything you can do about when a gang ganks you, its just not possible to stop it. The gang type ganking has been going on since the first MMO to introduce pvp. (m59) Then of coarse UO unfolded and the truely massive pvp ganking was shown. Then pops out EQ the answer to all carebares dreams and the market realised there were truely more carebears than pks. EQ also had the best graphics which did not hurt its desire any.It goes on from there into Daoc which truely answered alot of the players problems as far as pvp and pve mix were concerned and I dont think any games to date have answered that call as well as Mythic did. I think a good rule of thumb here is if you have a crappy pc dont pvp. But until you get out there and really get into pvp and have that first great one on one battle and win or loose you know it was a good fight you cant knock pvp. Its got a rush like nothing else in the gaming world and its you againt another person not some AI you know you can outthink. played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek |
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9/30/06 8:34:12 PM#22
No thank you very much on both of these suggestions for WoW!  "Huntress" |
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9/30/06 8:53:11 PM#23
I think that when you want to adhere to a "strict" definition of Player vs. Player, it does imply some level of competitive fairness. To many people who developed a taste for PvP in early games such as Ultima Online or playing the Darktide server on Asheron's Call, "fair" was a pretty foreign concept...it just didn't exist. That was life, and you lived (or died) whether you liked it or not. My personal experience playing AC DT I found that after getting killed over and over as a newbie, I didn't whine and complain about the fairness. I simply worked my way up the ladder until I could at least be competitive to higher level characters. I found being weak and vulnerable at low levels motivated me to become stronger and better at higher levels. Really motivated me. It motivated everyone I played with and against on that server. Once I was there, it was also gratifying to know that I could choose how I treated others. That I had the power to protect and help friends, to kill or gank enemies that I was stronger than or be an honourable player. Once you code in equality or even create ethical restrictions into a game, I think that's unfair...unfair to the people who have worked hard to become stronger. It eliminates your ability to choose how you want to be known. I am not suggesting that all games should follow that PvP model; it is more of a Player Killer game than Player vs Player. However once you make games too soft you lose some of the appeal of being powerful. |
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9/30/06 10:19:54 PM#24
As with everything the problem here is not with the system but with the people that use it.
If there were no petty little, short stroking jerks that get their jollies from beating up people weaker than them, virtually or otherwise then the world would be a better place. I like PvP and the excitement of squaring off against another player as compared to the drudgery of fighting endless computer controlled mobs that all react in a predictable pattern of behaviour. Every player is different and engaging other players in an even contest is far more exciting than fighting something you know how to defeat every time. What I object to is getting ambushed and killed in a single blow by a rogue who is more than twice your level, festooned with the best gear that money, or hundreds of hours of raiding can get you. Or when you're trying to escort the defias traitor to the deadmines entrance so you can reach the next part of the Van Cleef chain and a party of level 60 horde characters have taken it upon themselves to spend their entire evening ensuring that nobody can complete this level 18 quest. Or in Lineage 2 when you first step out of the noob town into the open PvP environment and being killed by a single spell from a black clad dark-elf and afraid to step foot out of town because he's still waiting outside for noobs to do just that! The list of bad experiences I have had with PvP bullies in MMO's is endless and runs the gamut of games, UO, Lineage 1 and 2, SWG, EVE, WoW, Anarchy Online and Neocron 2. Sure I like PvP but I can do without the small minded JERKS that seem to gain pleasure from preventing other players from enjoying the game! The problem lies not with PvP but with a percentage of the players who revel in the frustration of others. |
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9/30/06 11:52:39 PM#25
QFE WoW has never been seen as a pvp game. There is no reason to even bother pvping in WoW beyond griefing people or to say I did the grind. The 'gear' you get is worst then what you get from PvE raiding and the PvE raiders prepared to actually raid (ie carebears by any other game standards) can 'win' at pvp all they want. At any rate to the OP. Sounds like every other carebear whine I've heard. You got ganked on a PvP server. What did you expect? Your rant will not change the fact assholes are everywhere and they'll gank while they're permitted to. You want actual pvp you'll need to go find another game... WoW = Mac Donalds of the MMO Industry. All hype no nutrition. And in the future the MMO industry and gamers will pay for it by receiving WoW educated gamers into the market. I altready have friends ask me "But what is the end game?" in relation to games where the idea is to simply have fun. At any rate hopefully when ViVendi gets their asses sued off in Europe they'll need to find a buyer for WoW. If when/that happens SOE should be close by with a bank cheque...then we can get "The Vision" TM involved :D
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10/01/06 2:01:28 AM#26
The problem in WoW is not PvP, but game mechanics which allow griefing and other uneven battles. The design issues which create a bad PvP environment in WoW include: 1) Having fixed location quests which are known and can be camped. This makes it fairly easy to find someone to gank. To not do quests means leveling slowly, so the game basically creates this environment. 2) Having a "con" system. Knowing how powerful the enemy is is key to ganking, unless you just like to attack anything which moves. With knowledge of how powerful others are, it's easy to assess the situation and decide whether to avoid or gank a group or individual. This is a game design feature which gives the cautious assailant all the advantage he could want. 3) PvP vs someone with only 10% health left isn't griefing. It's taking advantage of a poorly prepared enemy. He should not have a) been out there soloing in a pvp area, and b) running around with so low of health. Granted, it's not easy to detect when enemies are around, and the camper need only wait until his target aggros a mob to gain the advantage. There are a lot of things creating this situation, and going solo is certainly not the only one. Again, it falls on game design creating the situation which gives the hidden attacker the advantage. 4) There's no way to create a "safe zone." It's pretty easy to travel in WoW and to communicate to anyone. This makes for an environment where one side ganks, then the ganked call in the level 60's (or whoever they can get) and they reverse-gank the gankers. However, hit and run is certainly possible, and though there are ways to travel fast and talk to anyone in the game, there is no way to hunt down an enemy, short of getting a certain distance away from them and using a skill or line of sight. No footprints are left in the sand. 5) Death is of no consequence. The player doesn't lose anything of consequence, so ganking comes with very little to lose or discourage it. Not only that, but resurrection is fairly fast, and as I mentioned in #4, travel makes it pretty easy to return and continue the grieffest. I'm sure there are a dozen more reasons why PvP doesn't work well in WoW, but I don't see the point in continuing. |
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10/01/06 3:48:46 AM#27
I've gota say I hate this whole "carebear" thing, who made it up?!? Ganking and killing greys is like whacking on a 5 yearold kid. A gray litteraly has 100% no chance, and people who do that have no personal honor in RL. I hate to beat up on PvP server people, and yes I do play a PvE after I found that WoW pvp sucks outside of BGs. DAoC had it right, questing zones, and pvp zones it just makes complete sence. For those that say War is unfair and dirty, thats because modern warfare sucks, and seems to have lost any form of honor. Seeing as this is a fantasy game and not a modern combat game, honor in war is part of the game (outside of the undead). In short, gankers are gutless people, who have no sence of honor. Sadly WoW cant see that their pvp servers suck, they just see high populations. In all reality EQ2 has it right, pvp can only be done within a level range (commons and antonica are 8 above/bellow) and the higher you go the bigger the gap. I'll play pvp on EQ2 any day, but outside of the BGs I hate pvp in wow. |
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10/01/06 5:19:24 AM#28
I suppose the best way to avoid ganking would be to stop assigning quests in contested zones or at least put up better defenses between zones. Ashenvale, for instance, is nearly impossible to get any quests done in because it's right next to all the Horde territories and you're doing quests there in the low-20s. If you want the added risk, you can take the quests into those zones in exchange for greater rewards and such.
For the occupied zones, there should be police forces of some kind (better than the current NPCs in the most common zones, as the current ones are nearly as easily killed as the lowbies) or perhaps a warrant system. If the person was looking for recognition, the more he kills the higher the warrant becomes, and so everyone will know him because they will be after him. That latter part is the downside. Maybe an announcement by the border forces if he's spotted or when he strikes again. People can already return from the dead, so it's not like it has to be realistic. The World PvP is a good thing for the setting, but it needs to be fine tuned so people can still have fun. |
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10/01/06 6:19:23 AM#29
STOP...you're just a silly little bunch of 4-year-olds who get your kicks trying to 'see whose is bigger.' Do grow up and stop feeding the dysfunctional nature of PvP.
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10/01/06 7:12:02 AM#30
This has to be the worst editorial ever.. First of, who the hell wants to discuss the piece of crap carebear garbage WoW calls "pvp"? If you want to make a debate about pvp in a game, do so, but pick a real game with true mmo pvp.
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Minimum
Novice Member
Joined: 7/07/04
You're just jealous because the voices only speak to me. |
10/01/06 7:25:48 AM#31
QFT |
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10/01/06 7:50:35 AM#32
I can't see the article, it says 'not available' or something - What gives?
EDIT: It works now  |
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10/01/06 7:57:33 AM#33
I've read many here saying "I like (both) PvP (and PvE), but I don't want to get annoyed while PvEing". The fact is you obviously don't enjoy PvP the same way really PvP-oriented players do (I personnaly call your kind "bored carebears" = people that try PvP only because they are bored with their neverending grind (don't feel obliged to flame me for this, I already know that's rude), I was one of those back when I played WoW). If you are on a PvP server, you can't complain about anything PvP-related imo. You made the wrong choice when you chose your server's type
The only PvP part i was not disgusted by in WoW was the open-PvP. BGs clearly are a joke (capture the flag ? PvE quests inside the BG? please...). --- |
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10/01/06 8:43:13 AM#34
The problem with WoW is that it's not designed around PvP. One thing that always bothered me is the ability to see the exact level and health of your opponent, or the inability to hide in a bush because a huge red name is over your head. It's easy to kill someone if he's at 10% health, easy to run away if he's at 100% health, but what to do if you can't see his health or mana bars, or level for that matter? It adds a new dimension, and will change your fighting strategy. WoW's PvP has always been the joke of all MMOs in my opinion, as is the reason people often say 'wait for Warhammer'. Capture the Flag? We're at war here, yet you want me to capture the flag? We raid a town with 30 people, get punished for killing vendors, can't kill children, and have new guards spawn on us every 5 seconds that will eventually overrun us. Some PvP you have there. A reward system is in place that's designed for people playing 24 hours a day. The only thing happening when you die is a 20 seconds corpserun. If you're grinding in a contested area with a player of the opposing faction, you'll often find the players not attacking eachother, because both know it's pointless. There is no gain from a kill, and the other player will be back in 15 seconds to avenge his death. It's not a PvP game, and this debate.. I don't know if Joe and Garrett have ever seen a debate but this was not one. It's funny to see Garrett start off with "I've always been a ganking type of person", yet end with "write code that prohibits the players fighting anything 10 levels below them" Carebear points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate: Hardcore points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate: You want to make a debate, make it a good one. What I read was not a debate, just random comments that didn't even go into detail of ... well, anything at all. |
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10/01/06 11:03:28 AM#35
As much as I hate PvP, I have to agree with Garrett: if you go to a PvP server, you do it mainly and above all because either you enjoy being ganked or consider it an acceptable price for being allowed to gank others. Since the ability to gank and to get ganked is the ONLY thing that separates PvP and PvE servers, the whole argument is pointless.
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10/01/06 11:05:52 AM#36
You got to be freakin kidding me, who the hell are those two clowns? PvP in WoW, is almost non-exsistant! It's more like uber gear vs uber gear, or pansie honor farming twink !@#!@$ Blizzard did more than drop the ball with PvP, they freakin lost it! There is no meaning to PvP, there is no risk, no reason to go out and risk yourself to gain anything. It's all about item whoring, period. Bah I'm done, I've been down this road way to freakin many times on the same subject. Blizz is not going to change it, it's beyond repair now. |
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airhead
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/21/06
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. |
10/01/06 1:25:39 PM#37
Guess I'm with munka...
i'm 43, father of 3, we all 4 play... pvp only. Even so, these games (MMOs) get boring pretty quick. AI is just to weak to create any real degree of IMMERSION imo (which is the whole point really). When we all 4 played WoW, it was pre-BG, and it was a blast... big long battles in BB were my favorite... a REAL pirate town. Eventually the server kept getting bigger and the 30v30 SS-TM battles turned into 100v100, and the game broke down because of LAG... (which is the REAL reason BGs were created to begin with). But everyone I know and played with, wanted even more pvp... i.e. we wanted a FREE-FOR-ALL server. I never really 'camped' people, but I would kill em if I saw them... and random battles that would form here and there were great. STV in the 30s was the best part of WoW. Anyone who would consider or say the phrase "I want to get something done" or "I want to gather some resources" or "I want to finish this quest and level" .... should DEFINATELY be playing on a PVE server. It's when the PVE people (the two writers debating in this article) want to play on PVP servers that the whole thing goes the wrong direction. I wanted MORE pvp... i want FREE-FOR-ALL. No one is ever forced to do anything they don't want or enjoy, and all whining based on that premise, given the fact that the choice for PVE servers exist, is completely ridiculous. Play on a PVE server!!! .... jeeze... |
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10/01/06 2:09:34 PM#38
So person x has to die over and over when he has lost his equipment to attain a new set? Sounds excessively harsh and time-consuming. |
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10/01/06 2:15:13 PM#39
Hmm not sure about many people attacking one player ganking wise, but in terms of a higher level attacking a lower level I blame the pvp system. The way I see it is a lower level player SHOULD have a chance of killing a higher level player. Why? Lets take a fps, ANYONE can aim at each other. Lets say someone in that fps levels up and gains more hp- he can still be killed. The same should be for mmorpgs, why should there be an artificial boundary implemented where every spell you cast is a resist or a melee dodge. It is already enough the higher level players have much superior gear and abilities.
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10/01/06 2:20:26 PM#40
Gameplay-wise, I think WoW's style is the most complelling. I can vividly remember moments when the hair on the back of my neck was standing up because of the skeletons littering the ground (indicating recent fighting). This was exciting! I will admit being a victim of gnkage and not logging in for a day or 2 because I was so pissed, but I did come back and gank back harder than ever
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(many chose PvP-servers only because that sounded "hip" ^^ without thinking of what it meant). Blizzard cannot make you ungankable/uncampable/whatever on their PvP server of course. Why ? Because in WoW, PvP is very soft already. Even softer PvP would mean there is no PvP left, and that would be a problem for those so-called PvP servers 
