Greetings one and all!

I wanted to write a quick note to explain, first, that the original wording for this forum might have been misleading. I have ammended it to be more inclusive of new and perspective players who are curious as to why so many people are angered over this particular game.

The reasoning behind the creation of our two new SWG forums was never to stifle anyone's opinions, but rather to give everyone a fair chance to express their views on this game. I realize that there are very strong feelings surrounding the sweeping changes that were made to this game, and we want to provide a place where people can discuss this issue. It has always been my intention to have this place be used as well by newcomers who are curious about gaining perspective on the events of this game's past, including the NGE and CU. I appologise if the original wording of the description for this forum was misleading, and hope that by adding to the description, I have cleared this up.

I hope that by providing these two seperate forums, these two distinct aspects and points of view on this game can both be heard so that everyone who has a voice, can be heard.

Jon Wood

*edit: I also wanted to clear up some confusion about the actual NAME of this forum.

From Dictionary.com, the word Refuge means:

I chose that name due to the controversey that is caused around people posting opinions about the changes. I thought that it was an appropriate for a forum dedicated to this particular subject.

I think we were all pretty clear, but thank you. We've already had some good conversations between Current & Former players here, not to mention a bit of fun...

As long as you don't stifle the Refugee's thoughts, I don't think we'll have any problems here.

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Originally posted by Stradden

Greetings one and all!

I wanted to write a quick note to explain, first, that the original wording for this forum might have been misleading. I have ammended it to be more inclusive of new and perspective players who are curious as to why so many people are angered over this particular game.

The reasoning behind the creation of our two new SWG forums was never to stifle anyone's opinions, but rather to give everyone a fair chance to express their views on this game. I realize that there are very strong feelings surrounding the sweeping changes that were made to this game, and we want to provide a place where people can discuss this issue. It has always been my intention to have this place be used as well by newcomers who are curious about gaining perspective on the events of this game's past, including the NGE and CU. I appologise if the original wording of the description for this forum was misleading, and hope that by adding to the description, I have cleared this up.

I hope that by providing these two seperate forums, these two distinct aspects and points of view on this game can both be heard so that everyone who has a voice, can be heard.

Jon Wood

*edit: I also wanted to clear up some confusion about the actual NAME of this forum.

From Dictionary.com, the word Refuge means:

1.	shelter or protection from danger, trouble, etc.: to take refuge from a storm.

2.	a place of shelter, protection, or safety.

3.	anything to which one has recourse for aid, relief, or escape.

I chose that name due to the controversey that is caused around people posting opinions about the changes. I thought that it was an appropriate for a forum dedicated to this particular subject.

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Come on... Are you sure you're not an alter ego of Torres, Smed, or someone else from $OE?

The ONLY reason this forum was split is because SWG:Complete is going to be released soon, and since this site will probably carry quite a few ads for it, you wanted to call as little attention as possible to these forums and us disgruntled vets so $OE can sell more boxes and introduce more people to their broken game.

I saw MMORPG did an interview with those thieves at $OE about a month ago. I think you asked every softball question you could think of. Why didn't you ask them about classic servers and why their "talented developers" can't code it? 

 Why didn't you ask them about  the "bait and switch" tactic they used with ToOW and if they have recovered from that black eye yet? 

As a self employed IT consultant, I can say with great joy that since 11/16/05 I have kept ~2 million+ dollars out of the hands of Sony Corporation by way of telling every purchasing director I come into contact with to avoid buying anything Sony like the plague. They do so, and they're much happier for doing it. I can only imagine how many other like myself have done the same thing..

It looks like I'll have to do the same for this site. I've already removed the bookmark for MMORPG.com from my favorites and this will quite possibly be my last post. Way to go breaking up your community!

True to $OE form... Kudos!!

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Originally posted by TheSlider

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Originally posted by Stradden

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Come on... Are you sure you're not an alter ego of Torres, Smed, or someone else from $OE?

The ONLY reason this forum was split is because SWG:Complete is going to be released soon, and since this site will probably carry quite a few ads for it, you wanted to call as little attention as possible to these forums and us disgruntled vets so $OE can sell more boxes and introduce more people to their broken game.

I saw MMORPG did an interview with those thieves at $OE about a month ago. I think you asked every softball question you could think of. Why didn't you ask them about classic servers and why their "talented developers" can't code it? 

 Why didn't you ask them about  the "bait and switch" tactic they used with ToOW and if they have recovered from that black eye yet? 

As a self employed IT consultant, I can say with great joy that since 11/16/05 I have kept ~2 million+ dollars out of the hands of Sony Corporation by way of telling every purchasing director I come into contact with to avoid buying anything Sony like the plague. They do so, and they're much happier for doing it. I can only imagine how many other like myself have done the same thing..

It looks like I'll have to do the same for this site. I've already removed the bookmark for MMORPG.com from my favorites and this will quite possibly be my last post. Way to go breaking up your community!

True to $OE form... Kudos!!

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Originally posted by Ivannatinkle

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Originally posted by TheSlider

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Originally posted by Stradden

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Come on... Are you sure you're not an alter ego of Torres, Smed, or someone else from $OE?

The ONLY reason this forum was split is because SWG:Complete is going to be released soon, and since this site will probably carry quite a few ads for it, you wanted to call as little attention as possible to these forums and us disgruntled vets so $OE can sell more boxes and introduce more people to their broken game.

I saw MMORPG did an interview with those thieves at $OE about a month ago. I think you asked every softball question you could think of. Why didn't you ask them about classic servers and why their "talented developers" can't code it? 

 Why didn't you ask them about  the "bait and switch" tactic they used with ToOW and if they have recovered from that black eye yet? 

As a self employed IT consultant, I can say with great joy that since 11/16/05 I have kept ~2 million+ dollars out of the hands of Sony Corporation by way of telling every purchasing director I come into contact with to avoid buying anything Sony like the plague. They do so, and they're much happier for doing it. I can only imagine how many other like myself have done the same thing..

It looks like I'll have to do the same for this site. I've already removed the bookmark for MMORPG.com from my favorites and this will quite possibly be my last post. Way to go breaking up your community!

True to $OE form... Kudos!!

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Don't forget your tinfoil hat on the way out. What a moronic post

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And you're not a moron? I mean, come on, really...

At least I don't have some gay-looking red-headed cartoon chick as my forum avatar...

More like prison is the better term lets shove all the free speechers and NGE haters who tell it like is into there own forum and give obraik and pirrg there own forum to spread propaganda which is where 99% of the flaming came from is those 2. Theres 9 bleeping forums already 9 and they werent used either for what they were now these are supose to magically work lol wtf?

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Don't forget your tinfoil hat on the way out. What a moronic post

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And you're not a moron? I mean, come on, really...

At least I don't have some gay-looking red-headed cartoon chick as my forum avatar...

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Originally posted by hargrave

More like prison is the better term lets shove all the free speechers and NGE haters who tell it like is into there own forum and give obraik and pirrg there own forum to spread propaganda which is where 99% of the flaming came from is those 2. Theres 9 bleeping forums already 9 and they werent used either for what they were now these are supose to magically work lol wtf?

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Maybe slider has a point? 

Really, why do we need a refuge?  I don't need to hide from anything, nor am I threatened by any means from the NGE, sony, or it's fans.  Are the pre-cu people that similar to brainless antelopes in some national park?The NGE'rs might need refuge from the vast bulk of posters here and our comments, but why seperate the vets who miss pre-cu into our own 'refuge'?  Makes no sense any way I look at it. 

But I digress...

Let's say the New England Journal of medicine started putting Vioxx reviews in tiny print in the back of it's pages, and started taking ads from Pfizer?  Or Scientific American extolling the benefits of an oil-driven economy, and three pages later had an Exxon ad?

Sony is a player in the online game industry.  All debate over the quality of the games aside, they offer a large selection of games in their access pass.  They have money and clout.  They have several games in the works, and would probably want to at least offer something here, be it ads, free betas, whatever. 

MMORPG.com is a respected site; several games have had devs post here, or on their own forums when they sense the tide of opinion is starting to flow against them.  I can't say it's the gold standard for this type of website, but it is popular with many people from all walks of life, and I haven't seen any site that has enough of that certain something to draw me away from here. 

Anyways, shortly after letting Sony have one those canned 'you tell me what to ask you' interviews we all know enough to ignore, they then try to seperate the vocal vets from the SWG forum most people would go to the first time here.  Intresting.

If I start seeing Sony ads here, I'll call shenanigans.  I'm sure I won't be the only one.  Now, far be it from me to expect a private business to bend to the will of the masses.  This is a free market after all, and they can do what they please at the end of the day.  But really, it leaves an odd taste in my mouth.

Free markets need free thinking consumers after all; some will have 'tinfoil hats' as you put it, but not everyone who finds this new setup odd are conspiracy buffs.  Some of us have learned that sometimes money can trump integrity, and take things with a grain of salt.

I for one would like to welcome our new overlords!

Hi,

I just thought I'd throw out my views on what you have done here, in order to maybe help put some things in prospective.

1. I'm concerned that all this will do is promote group think which is probably the most dangerous threat to intellectual freedom. I understand the desire to have a place where players who enjoy the NGE [or the pre-CU SWG] would like to come to discuss there thoughts and get help. However it really doesn't help if people can't challenge other views.

2. I understand that your trying to create a place where people can come to discuss their views of the game, but keep in mind the reason many of your (former SWG) member come here is because it has been a place where Veterans and the disenfranchised can get their voice and fustration out since they are not allowed to post anything opposing the NGE on the official SOE forums, or few other places.

3. It obvious you have alienated some of your members because of this. This particular action also contibutes to the belief by some that some of your journalist / news writers don't challenge SOE enough on what SOE did to SWG and its customers. It makes it appear that your less indpendent.

4. If you're desire is to be fair and to create a place where members can have a independent place to discuss their views; I'm curious as to how come you haven't been willing to be equally fair and have 2 separate rating of this game [Pre-CU and NGE, allowing all to vote on each version of the game]. I think this would go a long way it making it fair and honest, and show what many players / customers feel about this game.

Anyhow, I do thank you for showing an interest in trying to be fair here. I'm just not sure I agree with how you went about it.

IMO,

Tauceti

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Originally posted by TheSlider 

Come on... Are you sure you're not an alter ego of Torres, Smed, or someone else from $OE?

The ONLY reason this forum was split is because SWG:Complete is going to be released soon, and since this site will probably carry quite a few ads for it, you wanted to call as little attention as possible to these forums and us disgruntled vets so $OE can sell more boxes and introduce more people to their broken game.

I saw MMORPG did an interview with those thieves at $OE about a month ago. I think you asked every softball question you could think of. Why didn't you ask them about classic servers and why their "talented developers" can't code it? 

 Why didn't you ask them about  the "bait and switch" tactic they used with ToOW and if they have recovered from that black eye yet? 

As a self employed IT consultant, I can say with great joy that since 11/16/05 I have kept ~2 million+ dollars out of the hands of Sony Corporation by way of telling every purchasing director I come into contact with to avoid buying anything Sony like the plague. They do so, and they're much happier for doing it. I can only imagine how many other like myself have done the same thing..

It looks like I'll have to do the same for this site. I've already removed the bookmark for MMORPG.com from my favorites and this will quite possibly be my last post. Way to go breaking up your community!

True to $OE form... Kudos!!

---

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Originally posted by Tauceti

Hi,

I just thought I'd throw out my views on what you have done here, in order to maybe help put some things in prospective.

1. I'm concerned that all this will do is promote group think which is probably the most dangerous threat to intellectual freedom. I understand the desire to have a place where players who enjoy the NGE [or the pre-CU SWG] would like to come to discuss there thoughts and get help. However it really doesn't help if people can't challenge other views.

2. I understand that your trying to create a place where people can come to discuss their views of the game, but keep in mind the reason many of your (former SWG) member come here is because it has been a place where Veterans and the disenfranchised can get their voice and fustration out since they are not allowed to post anything opposing the NGE on the official SOE forums, or few other places.

3. It obvious you have alienated some of your members because of this. This particular action also contibutes to the belief by some that some of your journalist / news writers don't challenge SOE enough on what SOE did to SWG and its customers. It makes it appear that your less indpendent.

4. If you're desire is to be fair and to create a place where members can have a independent place to discuss their views; I'm curious as to how come you haven't been willing to be equally fair and have 2 separate rating of this game [Pre-CU and NGE, allowing all to vote on each version of the game]. I think this would go a long way it making it fair and honest, and show what many players / customers feel about this game.

Anyhow, I do thank you for showing an interest in trying to be fair here. I'm just not sure I agree with how you went about it.

IMO,

Tauceti

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Well said, also wise.    However, I think this was done due to being the "lesser" of two evil ideas.

One, they could have been like SOE and just banned any bad thing sad about the game.   BUT that would not be like them, they are not like that and emjoy debates, voices and insight from the real players or players that were.

I also think they are trying to "Help" ease some of the issues with the new guys or NGE supporters have a place to post whatever it is they do without us shoving a fact in thier face or quote etc..  I think at this stage it was for the best.

As for challenging SOE, well let me tell you somthing.   SO FAR not one interview other then direct emails with this company) has been non-scripted.   LEC is involved in that the second the word "Press" gets involved.

I can tell you that with MMORPG we have got our freedom back, we got our voices back so for that we should thank them.   SOE knows we are here, they know we post and trust me when I say some of them read what we say here.    I am glad they did this, I am glad they may inform one more person that had no clue about this game and product.   If anything, one person may learn and add to what he has seen and or after he plays it might make a comment on it.

I think the STAFF here has said enough or done enough to support people from SWG.. In ways due to business you cannot expect them to go after SOE or even make to heavy a comment about them.   Deep pockets always wins, even with free press, nothing is exactly free.

I do think that people should let the game speak for itself, use quotes from the makers, producers, president and gaming reviews, awards and more fact then opinion.   THIS WAY they have a chance to then make thier own call on things.

Sure we can still have passion about the game, but at this stage I do not need to use that to show where this game stands or what it has done or is about.