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Originally posted by dink


Translation:

We are going to a lot of trouble to create a game environment that slowly funnels you into hardcore play if you want the game's best rewards.  Other playstyles are possible, but you'll always suck compared to hardcore raiding guilds who are willing to put up with insane death penalties that include corpse runs and potential item loss.

Btw, we also have slow travel times that make it difficult to play with your friends if you do not commit to staying with them always - even if they go to areas far past your level.  Also, currently people are reporting that our game world is super huge but that most of it is a barren wasteland void of content.  Some content will be added by launch, but expect a lot of space that is only there to increase your travel times.

Oh, and our graphic animations really suck and actual gameplay graphics even on SLI dual-GPU PCs like those used at E3 don't look anything like our screenshots, so we won't be showing gameplay movies until they stop looking like ass.

So play our game for a month or three before you reach the casual ceiling and go back to WoW, Age of Conan, or Gods & Heroes. 

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If you never bother raiding and your gear is plenty good enough to tackle the content you are interested in, would someone else's gear be a moot point?  Ignoring that you would still be wrong about high end group content rewards compared to raider rewards. 

Thestra is one of the larger continents, on a high level LAND mount it takes no more than 15min to go from tip to tail.  Last time I checked to get from Orgrimmar to one of the more distant locations typically took about that long despite blimps and rail "flying mount" rides.  Strategically placing your hearth stone helped, having a high level mage on hand helped a lot.  With a high level flying mount in VG the time taken to get to a location would be even less than the land mount. 

If your friends are dedicated to staying together then you will form a fellowship that will keep all of you within level of each other, AKA no one can outlevel the others because the xp in your fellowship will be shared.  If your friends do not care about staying together then they won't, how is that different from anything else?

You're first mount can be obtained as early as level 6 via a diplomacy quest.  You can also get them other ways as early as level 10.

I have not yet played beta, but if there are too many quests and dungeons to hit with one character then I would suspect those dungeons have to be placed somewhere within the actual game maps (since there is no instancing).  I guess we'll just have to wait and see how barren or not the lands are at release then.  Current reports by players breaking NDA would be comming from beta 3.  Of which there has been none.  /shrug

The screen shots look just fine, some are markedly better and worse than others, but on the whole they are fine.  The animations often do suck, that is one of the things they will be focusing on in beta 4.  And I think you are right on the money as to that being one of the main reasons not many vids have been released.  Mounted animation (flying and land) is horridly stiff etc.  If the animations still look like crap towards the end of beta 4 that will be a very bad sign.  We'll see I guess.

Gods and heroes may be a very interesting title, I really wonder how the henchmen aspect will play out but there just isn't enough info about it yet.  There are a couple of others I have high hopes for as well.  :)

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Originally posted by Amathe

This is the only game on the market, of the hundreds in development, where the lead Dev has to write an essay to convince people that contrary to what they have heard (from years of posts on Sigil's own boards), the game really is for them and not just for 133t dudes. That in itself speaks volumes.

The fact of the matter is, Brad can say this and write this and take out advertisements about this but it doesn't change his core belief, and his Vision (tm), that Vanguard is meant to be enjoyed by people who play video games 10+ hours a day, and everyone else is just there to pay the bills and admire the "elite." The "bleeding edge", he calls them.

I don't fault Sigil for making a game for people who play every day 24/7. That's fine. I do blame Sigil for trying to dupe people into believing that's not what the game is about.

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Unless you have played the game first hand, your comment means nothing, just and angry attempt to try and bring down the game. ;)

Good day

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Originally posted by n2sooners
And I am sure you much prefer the socialist game versions where everyone gets the exact same stuff no matter how much or how little effort they put forth.

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I'm not sure how any form of game design really qualifies as 'socialist' or why you think I want something that I've said over and over on this board that I don't want. I know you prefer the raid-centric system where people who are willing to put up with the raiding playstyle get better gear than people who aren't.

NOTE TO ANYONE NEW TO VANGUARD: Pay attention to the fact that some fans of the game argue that it's one way and others that it's not; n2sooners is saying that raiding will be better rewarded and that not liking that makes me a socialist, while solymnar says that I'm falsely assuming that raiding will be better rewarded (though he goes on to say that it will be later on).

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Originally posted by solymnar
He didn't leave it off, you falsely assumed it.

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So, I falesly assumed what you went on to tell me a couple of lines down, that "The UBER gear will require help from multiple spheres.. adventuring (both raid and...)." Sounds like I was perfectly correct, getting the best gear will unequivocably require raiding, therefore if you don't raid you'll have worse gear, just like I said. And before you try to talk your way out of your statement:

From: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1291339#post1291339

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The key I think is that while it is true that some of the best (but not all of the best) items will come from raid areas or encounters, the majority of content in the game, from level 1-50, will be centered around grouping and not raiding. If you group to 50, experience crafting and diplomacy, and do some trading/buying/selling, I see no reason why you wouldn't have the majority of items you sought to make your character as powerful as possible, even if you refused to raid. That said, I would encourage you and anyone else to take a Saturday off here and there and try some of the raid content as well, as it can be a blast to experience.

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Yes it will take time to get gear, but you can still get high end equipment and avoid raiding.

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You can get second-rate equipment if you don't raid, but you won't have access to the best gear if you don't raid. I'm not sure why you keep going on about time to get gear, when what I've pointed out is that you'll have to raid to get it, not anything about time.

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Pant, you sound like you have issues from some other game and want to apply them here?

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I have issues with games in which your choices are to raid or be second-rate, and I think it's only fair that people who might be considering Vanguard know the role that raiding will play in the game.

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Originally posted by solymnar
If you never bother raiding and your gear is plenty good enough to tackle the content you are interested in, would someone else's gear be a moot point?

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If you raid and your gear is plenty good enough to tackle the content you are interested in, would someone else's gear be a moot point?

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Originally posted by Amathe

This is the only game on the market, of the hundreds in development, where the lead Dev has to write an essay to convince people that contrary to what they have heard (from years of posts on Sigil's own boards), the game really is for them and not just for 133t dudes. That in itself speaks volumes.

The fact of the matter is, Brad can say this and write this and take out advertisements about this but it doesn't change his core belief, and his Vision (tm), that Vanguard is meant to be enjoyed by people who play video games 10+ hours a day, and everyone else is just there to pay the bills and admire the "elite." The "bleeding edge", he calls them.

I don't fault Sigil for making a game for people who play every day 24/7. That's fine. I do blame Sigil for trying to dupe people into believing that's not what the game is about.

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You're wrong, Amathe.  Sigil is making the game for 'core' gamers.   Thats a term they use to mean the larger segmet of the player spectrum between 'hard core' and 'soft core'.  In other words, the average player.

They don't want to be a 'niche' market.  They are aiming at the broadest segment of the MMORPG player base.  As they should, IMHO.  It doesn't make economic sense to do it any other way.

There are, or were, some hardcore gamers on the Vanguard forums who thought if they posted loud enough they might influence Sigil to make a hard core game.  That didn't happen.  Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

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Originally posted by Lendal1

 Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

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You are completely wrong.
Brad is trying to convince people otherwise, but the truth is that the average player won't even play Beta, because they don't understand the game, let alone PAY to play the game.

Sigil is making a game who appeals people with more time and/or patience, something which the masses are quite short of.

Now, if the game does't perform well at launch, you will see SOE taking over, and you will see the "commercial" trasformation we saw in EQ, EQ2 and SWG.

If everything goes well, Vanguard could reach a player base of EQ and EQ2 combined, which is not bad.
So let s hope for Sigil that the "niche" who is gonna play Vanguard is big enough (and I think it is), but let's not fool ourselves; Vanguard is not a game for everyone.

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originally posted byAradune Mithara 12:40am 06/30/2006

Thanks for the quotes. I did some searching and have saved this off now so I can answer again as I'm sure this will rightfully continue to pop up as more and more people come to find out more about Vanguard:

Will the best loot come only from raids?

Aradune Mithara: No. Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment, but these commitments shouldn't have to always be contiguous. In other words, say it requires 12 hours of adventuring to obtain a powerful item. In some extreme cases, this could require a raid, or even a group and it could take you all day to complete. In other cases, however, the 12 hours can be broken up into three 4 hour chunks, where the quest or encounter route for the item is broken up into fourths, such that after you achieve 1/4 of the quest or route, you can save, re-group the next day, and then finish up another 3 hour chunk.

I've posted quite a bit on this months ago and encourage your and anyone interested to dig up the posts (some have been re-posted in this thread already -- thanks guys). In a nutshell, we want the best items to be available though a variety of routes: raids, long contiguous adventures, broken up adventures, trade skills, diplomacy, etc. The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be available through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yields great rewards, will be group oriented.

Essentially, if you want it all (whether items or abilities or spells or whatever), you pretty much have to DO it all as well. I do stress, however, that to be a powerful and effective player, you don't have to do it all. What I'm talking about is the subset of players who, from a personal preference, decide they have to have all of the best gear of every type, for every situation, etc.

So, and hopefully more to your point, if you focus on the casual content in the game, you will find/buy items that make you better, and as you level up, acquire wealth, skills, etc. you will find better equipment, and should feel a sense of accomplishment.

But that equipment most likely wouldn't cut it in a grouping region, and most certainly not in a raid area. Those mobs are harder, more situational, and don't just require more attention when playing (making sure you counter that spell, etc.), but also require that you have items that are at least close to the level range of the group dungeon you are in.

It can't really be any other way. If you want to only be casual, you will progress, but as I've said in the past, you won't have the same stuff as the guy who groups, or who raids. Same with the other spheres and how much time you invest.

All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc. There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the past.

That’s not clear and seems contradictory: please elaborate:

Aradune Mithara: What's key here is that the best items should come from experiences where there was the greatest risk vs. reward and time commitment (plus, there's always luck -- being in the right place at the right time, etc.).

Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.

Some also will come from the other spheres, but much of the same applies: the best components harvested and then used later to craft the best items will be very rare and in very dangerous locations. Some of it may require long contiguous time commitments, while others will be obtainable by completing several shorter contiguous adventures.

So I guess I'm still not totally sure what exactly you are asking here....

Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.

Will you be able to obtain some of the very best gear without participating in conventional raids and/or buying gear obtained via conventional raiding? Absolutely.

If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you. But if you are content with obtaining some subset of the best gear without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or items created via crafting from harvested components obtained via raiding), then I think Vanguard will be fine for you.

Really, if you want the option of obtaining any item in the game period without buying/trading for it, you'll need to involve yourself in all aspects of the game, not just raiding. You'll need to level up in harvesting/crafting, level up in diplomacy, experience the higher end grouping dungeons and such, and also have the tenacity and patience to invest quite a bit of time in the game in general, as going on a high level adventure, whether group or raid oriented, doesn't guarantee that you will obtain that item you seek anyway. Someone else might get the item, or the item might not be available each and every time anyway, as perhaps the rare spawn that drops that item, or rare harvestable, just isn't around that night, or the quest that triggers a sequence of encounter segments that leads to that 'golden' boss mob might already be taken by another group, or even the mob or switch or item or whatever flags you and your group as being able to participate on the encounter segment might not be 'up' either.

Bottom line: if you want it all, you have to be willing to participate in all aspects of the game, especially if you are not willing to buy/trade and participate in the player driven economy, and when I say 'all' of the game, that would include the raids as well.

Does this answer your question? If not, I will try to explain further.

Please explain further – that doesn’t necessarily seem consistent:

Aradune Mithara: No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainable via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).

Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:

1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone

2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone

3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).

4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate

5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonor may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.

Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable.

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http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1401499#post1401499

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Originally posted by Lendal1

You're wrong, Amathe.  Sigil is making the game for 'core' gamers.   Thats a term they use to mean the larger segmet of the player spectrum between 'hard core' and 'soft core'.  In other words, the average player.

They don't want to be a 'niche' market.  They are aiming at the broadest segment of the MMORPG player base.  As they should, IMHO.  It doesn't make economic sense to do it any other way.

There are, or were, some hardcore gamers on the Vanguard forums who thought if they posted loud enough they might influence Sigil to make a hard core game.  That didn't happen.  Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

They don't want to be a 'niche' market.  They are aiming at the broadest segment of the MMORPG player base.  As they should, IMHO.  It doesn't make economic sense to do it any other way.

There are, or were, some hardcore gamers on the Vanguard forums who thought if they posted loud enough they might influence Sigil to make a hard core game.  That didn't happen.  Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

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I wish I was wrong. Like you, I bought the "core gamer" mantra hook, line and sinker. That's why I followed the game for years and was once an enthusisatic supporter. In fact, when powergamers would post that Vanguard was for them and them alone, I would correct them and say pretty much what you just said in your response. And if you were right, I would play this game and enjoy it (as I have many other mmos, such as EQ, EQ2, SWG, CoH, CoV, WoW, GW, etc., etc.).

But as has become more clear over time, this "core gamer" concept is misleading. It doesn't mean what you have been led to believe it means. A "core gamer", in reality, is a more akin to a former EQ player who spent 6 years of their life doing nothing but playing EQ all day long who now has had to get a job. They log on 4-6 hours a night now because they have other responsibilities, but when they do log on they play with the raid/powergamer/elite mindset they always did. A core gamer is just a powergamer with less time to play. By this definition, Vanguard is directed to the core player, and if you meet this definition you may enjoy the game. If you don't, I guarantee you that you won't.

If you are not a core gamer by the above definition, will you be able to roll a character and kill some meaningless wandering mobs for some meaningless loot where your character will be absurdly weak to the point the game is a misery? Sure. Just don't confuse claims of "content" with "enjoyable content". If you are not a powergamer by mindset, you will hate this game like hot death on toast. And that is by design, because the Vision (tm), in a nutshell, is the glorification of elite players at the expense of everyone else.

Now, to be clear, I am ok with that. There are a lot of games on the market and there is nothing wrong with having different strokes for different folks. Just because I don't want to play this one doesn't mean there aren't people who will love it. But what galls me is the misleading advertising that Sigil and SOE are spewing these days, where they are creating the false perception that this is a game that casual players, solo players, and people who don't have a lot of time can play and enjoy. That's not true. They are only saying that out of fear that the subscription numbers for this game will mirror the type of game that it actually is, and that's just not enough folks.

Buy Vanguard. Give them $50. Tell me I'm a WoW kiddie and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Just do me one favor. When you get burned, right before you hit "cancel", pause and remember that I told you so.

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe
From what i could understand from brad´s communication, its just a PR stunt. Most people that have showed even the slightest interest in vanguard have gone and took a look at the boards, and all they see is 100´s of "this game is not for you" "go back to WoW" "We don't want in game maps" "we want harsher death penalty" ,etc.

The biggest obstacle vanguard has to pass to get some good pr and to generate some positive interest from most mmorpg players, its the Vanguard community, the smartest thing sigil could have done was to have no forums at all while the game was beeing developed, and only use forums for the beta testers.

Maybe it will change once vanguard is released and they take down all the "official" forums, but i think the damage already has been done.

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Very true statement.  Particularily 3 months or so ago.  Now that the community on the official site is getting rather massive most of the "we hate all things WoW" strings of posts have have either stopped or are equally contested.

In regards to the specific topics however there will be in game maps, and the death penalty actually fluxes, as in different types of death have different penalty...which inherently makes some places considerably more risky.

But yes, much of the VG boards were completely dominated by EQ1 vets many of which were hard core raiders and wanted VG to be the same.  Thus its not surprising that many people walked away bitter about being trash talked to and left with the burning impression that VG is hard core raiding only.  When beta 5 comes around and the NDA is lifted and some decent previews start coming around perhaps that will be what it takes to "fix" that perception?  Who knows.

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Originally posted by Amathe

Now, to be clear, I am ok with that. There are a lot of games on the market and there is nothing wrong with having different strokes for different folks. Just because I don't want to play this one doesn't mean there aren't people who will love it. But what galls me is the misleading advertising that Sigil and SOE are spewing these days, where they are creating the false perception that this is a game that casual players, solo players, and people who don't have a lot of time can play and enjoy. That's not true. They are only saying that out of fear that the subscription numbers for this game will mirror the type of game that it actually is, and that's just not enough folks.

Buy Vanguard. Give them $50. Tell me I'm a WoW kiddie and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Just do me one favor. When you get burned, right before you hit "cancel", pause and remember that I told you so.

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I rather enjoyed WoW.  I guess I understand their version of a core gamer differently.  My wife and I have very little time durring a week to play (perhaps 2hrs a day max if we're lucky?).  On some weekends we may have time to spend a large chunk here and there.  It appears that we'll do fine but that is our impression.

But we'll likely be in beta 5 (since its damn near open beta anyway) and get a feel for it ourselves before spending $50.  ;)

I think we'll enjoy the game for at least as long as we enjoyed WoW, and if that's the case then we still had fun...which is kind of the point of a game eh?  ;)

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Originally posted by Pantastic

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Originally posted by n2sooners
And I am sure you much prefer the socialist game versions where everyone gets the exact same stuff no matter how much or how little effort they put forth.

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I'm not sure how any form of game design really qualifies as 'socialist' or why you think I want something that I've said over and over on this board that I don't want. I know you prefer the raid-centric system where people who are willing to put up with the raiding playstyle get better gear than people who aren't.

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>

First off you do not KNOW what n2 prefers until he tells you.  Just because someone doesn't voice bias towards a particular playstyle does not mean they don't prefer it.  AKA just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you can validly stereotype them.  I disagree with you and I don't bother raiding in most of the MMOs I've played.

>

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Originally posted by Pantastic

NOTE TO ANYONE NEW TO VANGUARD: Pay attention to the fact that some fans of the game argue that it's one way and others that it's not; n2sooners is saying that raiding will be better rewarded and that not liking that makes me a socialist, while solymnar says that I'm falsely assuming that raiding will be better rewarded (though he goes on to say that it will be later on).

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>

No, you added on to and twisted his words, n2 said that rewards should be based on effort.  He in fact never mentioned raiding vs. grouping.  He asked if you think everyone should get the same rewards no matter what.  To which you haven't responded.  So I ask you again, do YOU think everyone should get the exact same rewards no mater what pant?  And if not what do you think should define who gets what?  You want to put words in other people's mouths but fail to offer your own counter example.  ;)

>

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Originally posted by Pantastic

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Originally posted by solymnar
He didn't leave it off, you falsely assumed it.

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So, I falesly assumed what you went on to tell me a couple of lines down, that "The UBER gear will require help from multiple spheres.. adventuring (both raid and...)." Sounds like I was perfectly correct, getting the best gear will unequivocably require raiding, therefore if you don't raid you'll have worse gear, just like I said.

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>

Sounds like you are perfectly consistant in adding words to some statements to make them fit your view and subracting them from others.  :) 

If you want top level gear you can completely avoid raiding.

If you want ALL the top level gear you will have to participate in ALL the spheres and adventure styles which includes the peices that come from raiding and the peices that come from grouping and even the peices that come from soloing.  Or you can play your style/sphere and buy items that come from other sytles/spheres that you really want.

But feel free to intentionally misinterpret this again.  Though a bit of advice...just because you leave out the word "grouping" in your quote doesn't change the point that it was in the original post.  ;)

>

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Originally posted by Pantastic

And before you try to talk your way out of your statement:

From: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1291339#post1291339

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The key I think is that while it is true that some of the best (but not all of the best) items will come from raid areas or encounters, the majority of content in the game, from level 1-50, will be centered around grouping and not raiding. If you group to 50, experience crafting and diplomacy, and do some trading/buying/selling, I see no reason why you wouldn't have the majority of items you sought to make your character as powerful as possible, even if you refused to raid. That said, I would encourage you and anyone else to take a Saturday off here and there and try some of the raid content as well, as it can be a blast to experience.

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Yes it will take time to get gear, but you can still get high end equipment and avoid raiding.

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You can get second-rate equipment if you don't raid, but you won't have access to the best gear if you don't raid. I'm not sure why you keep going on about time to get gear, when what I've pointed out is that you'll have to raid to get it, not anything about time.

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>

So lets see...the quote you took said exactly what I did...some high end equipment comes from raiding, some comes from grouping and some comes from other spheres...in fact, your quote taken says that even though you can get all the gear you need without raiding he would encourage you to give it a shot anyway because it can be a lot of fun, even if you don't need the gear from it. 

You can get the majority of high end gear without raiding...

It takes time to aquire gear but it does not require raiding...

Let me help you with the "time" factor since you said you're confused about it.  The point is that there are end game grouping quests and adventure areas.  They often have a high skill factor required and usually a long time commitment (though many can be split up into parts so that it doesn't have to be all at once so that casual people, like me, don't get shafted).  Needless to say the rewards for end game grouping are on par with end game raiding, both require time and effort.  Thus the time statment.  I await your uncanny ability to intentionally misinterpret this as well... though I am hopeful it won't be neccesary.

The fact is you can directly get second rate equipement if you never take on challenging content, end game grouping, end game diplomacy, end game crafting, and end game (gasp) raiding etc.

But participating in any of the end game options results in access to top teir equipment.  The best of which needs work done by more than one sphere.  Its a pretty simple scenario, there's nothing tricky or shady to grasp here.

I don't have a need to "talk my way out of my statement"s when the quotes you draw on keep supporting them.  ;)

Just like repeating my thoughts that if your equipment obtained by your playstyle is good enough to support your playstle then it doesn't really matter what the rewards for other playstyles are, simply reaffirms what I said from a different angle. 

>

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Originally posted by Pantastic

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Pant, you sound like you have issues from some other game and want to apply them here?

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I have issues with games in which your choices are to raid or be second-rate, and I think it's only fair that people who might be considering Vanguard know the role that raiding will play in the game.

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>

Well then, if that is your goal then I deeply suggest trying to not misrepresent other people's quotes, add or delete choice words to give a false impression, or draw conclusions that have nothing to do with what was said.  The role that raiding plays in the game is 3 times less than grouping.  Thus the reason why the devs have said from day one that the game is "group centric".  ;)

My guess is that you made a post or two on the official forums a long time ago and a bunch of people railed on you fairly/unfairly and you're still upset about it?

Anyway back to Vanguard

You're choices are to

A) Solo

B) Group

C) Raid

D) Craft

E) Parlay (diplomacy)

End game content in any of these will yeild top teir rewards.  Its that simple.  The reality is however between the adventuring spheres, there is three times the grouping content that there is raiding.  So most raiders will probably do a lot of grouping content simply because there is vastly more of it.  Same with soloers.  Why buy a game to only play a small fraction of it (20%)?

Almost all this info is now in the official Vanguard Faq (as baphamet so very kindly posted).  You can read it and try to strip individual parts out to twist around but its still there for anyone to read and the end result is still the same. 

There is no need to raid to outfit yourself with top end equipment, period.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by n2sooners
And I am sure you much prefer the socialist game versions where everyone gets the exact same stuff no matter how much or how little effort they put forth.

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Raiding is socialist.

A capitalist system reward INDIVIDUAL worth, not a dkp system based on attendancies.  Raiding has a 3rd party determined who achieve loot and who doesn't, which is completely independant from efficiency.

A capitalist system would be directly linked to efficiency, and raiding isn't, couldn't.

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Originally posted by n2sooners

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by n2sooners
And I am sure you much prefer the socialist game versions where everyone gets the exact same stuff no matter how much or how little effort they put forth.

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Raiding is socialist.

A capitalist system reward INDIVIDUAL worth, not a dkp system based on attendancies.  Raiding has a 3rd party determined who achieve loot and who doesn't, which is completely independant from efficiency.

A capitalist system would be directly linked to efficiency, and raiding isn't, couldn't.

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I don't think you understand the DKP system. DKP is basically money. Players are paid according to how much they work. No one just hands out loot, it is purchased by those who want it and have the most DKP. There are a number of different DKP systems, but they all have one thing in common, those who do the most work end up with the most rewards.

A system where those who do very little are rewarded the same as those who do a lot is a socialst system. So those who want the same reward even though they have very little play time are the one's with the socialist attitudes, not those who believe you should be rewarded more for doing more.

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Originally posted by wjrasmussen

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Originally posted by n2sooners

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by n2sooners
And I am sure you much prefer the socialist game versions where everyone gets the exact same stuff no matter how much or how little effort they put forth.

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Raiding is socialist.

A capitalist system reward INDIVIDUAL worth, not a dkp system based on attendancies.  Raiding has a 3rd party determined who achieve loot and who doesn't, which is completely independant from efficiency.

A capitalist system would be directly linked to efficiency, and raiding isn't, couldn't.

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I don't think you understand the DKP system. DKP is basically money. Players are paid according to how much they work. No one just hands out loot, it is purchased by those who want it and have the most DKP. There are a number of different DKP systems, but they all have one thing in common, those who do the most work end up with the most rewards.

A system where those who do very little are rewarded the same as those who do a lot is a socialst system. So those who want the same reward even though they have very little play time are the one's with the socialist attitudes, not those who believe you should be rewarded more for doing more.

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Doesn't a good loyal guild member showup without having to be paid?

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Originally posted by n2sooners

I don't think you understand the DKP system. DKP is basically money. Players are paid according to how much they work. No one just hands out loot, it is purchased by those who want it and have the most DKP. There are a number of different DKP systems, but they all have one thing in common, those who do the most work end up with the most rewards.A system where those who do very little are rewarded the same as those who do a lot is a socialst system. So those who want the same reward even though they have very little play time are the one's with the socialist attitudes, not those who believe you should be rewarded more for doing more.

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i think he means that dkp rewards people that just show up for raids, if they were there for the boss kill they get dkp. he seems to think that you can just sit there and not be efficient or do your job and still earn dkp and bid on loot.

while that may be true for a unorganized lower quality guild, most good guilds record everything that goes on in the raid (i.e healing or dps done)

it seems Anofalye has had some bad experiences with crappy guilds that let their players just sit there and not do their job efficiently, whats funny is he goes on to assume all guilds are like that and hence his reasons for hating raids....well I'm sure he has other reasons to but that is one of his main arguments.

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If you never bother raiding and your gear is plenty good enough to tackle the content you are interested in, would someone else's gear be a moot point?  Ignoring that you would still be wrong about high end group content rewards compared to raider rewards. 

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe
From what i could understand from brad´s communication, its just a PR stunt. Most people that have showed even the slightest interest in vanguard have gone and took a look at the boards, and all they see is 100´s of "this game is not for you" "go back to WoW" "We don't want in game maps" "we want harsher death penalty" ,etc.

The biggest obstacle vanguard has to pass to get some good pr and to generate some positive interest from most mmorpg players, its the Vanguard community, the smartest thing sigil could have done was to have no forums at all while the game was beeing developed, and only use forums for the beta testers.

Maybe it will change once vanguard is released and they take down all the "official" forums, but i think the damage already has been done.

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Originally posted by dink

This is a very big deal.  Players don't want to feel like second class citizens to raiders.  They didn't play for 500 hours so that their characters can be wimps instead of epic heroes.

Plus, the power difference usually results in a content gap between raiders and non-raiders.  The devs have to make content for the suped up uber raiders and the lowlly casuals.  The raiders then find it either too easy or the casuals find it utterly impossible and unplayably difficult.

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Gratz dink, you are now at the same level as pant.  :(

The only power difference in raiders and groupers will be if someone plays more regularly and spends more time aquiring gear/wealth to buy gear/etc. then they will have more of it.  Raiders and groupers will get different types of high end gear but its the same teir/power level. 

Or to put it differently, if there was no raiding at all...then it still won't change the point that some people will put in rediculous hours and aquire more gear than others. 

AKA players who spend more time playing will have better gear.  Doesn't matter if they raid/group/craft/parlay.  If you have issues with that notion GW is ready when you are because there is not a single MMO out there that doesn't have this scenario short of guildwars where there are 3-4 types of identical high end gear sets per a class.

Don't get me wrong, i rather enjoy GW, but on the same note if I play a subscription fee MMORPG that has the EXACT same gear rewards for top teir no matter what I do I'll yack from the sheer overwhelming blandness.

I better damn well get a different loot table from a long grouping quest than what the end game crafters are making.  Which fortunately is the case with VG.

If you can't understand the idea that players can get a complete set of top teir gear without raiding then you are either hopeless or intentionally blind because if you acknowledge this you case holds no water...my bet is on the latter.

Oh but wait...what am I thinking?  These are CLEARLY half measures and a PR stunt to trick people into thinking that VG is group centric...er...no...wait a sec...the devs announced VG as being a group centric design from DAY ONE.  Perhaps you're just REALLY REALLY good at sticking your fingers in your ears and stomping your feet while screaming like a banchee for years on end? 

Which is odd because you even mannaged to acknowledge that there are several people on the official forums who complained that VG didn't sound "hard core" enough for them...to which the devs responded "we've always said the game is group centric, we'll have raid content but it is not the focus of the gameplay".

The same "hard core" people said "no maps, no corpse threads" to which the devs replied "we will have in game maps, you can choose not to use them, we will have in game corpse threads, the world is simply huge and that combined with tall grass, massive dungeons among other things makes it too difficult to find your corpse sometimes, still you can choose to turn it off if you like".

You can say that some of the people want the game to be hard core with a free pair of electrodes that shock your nipples every time to get hit but the reality is that the devs have more or less been sticking to their guns and makeing a group centric average player game.  That's what they've said from the start, it's what they are still saying.  But it will be easy enough to see who is actually following up on the game itself...and who is speculating out their rears soon enough eh?

Because you make so much sense in the logic that the devs want to "trick" a few extra people into making a few quick bucks and earn a bad rep as opposed to having a good launch with an honest rep and keeping long term subs?

"I know!  Lets lie to everyone because that will REALLY help us establish a solid base for our company for future development!"  Sure, that makes great sense...oh wait...no it doesn't.  ;)