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Originally posted by TreborLocke
*Gasp* Could Guild Wars be a game you need to make friends in as well?
I'm sorry, but I'm getting sick of the WoW kiddies that are still in the age group of "Gimme gimme gimme I'm always right, no one can have a different opinion than me, Gimme!"  I'm sorry...But OP, this is a 10-13yr old personality (Generally, not all 10-13yr olds are like this, but most are) and you are a perfict model of a child who has had some sub-par parenting.
Get a degree, then I might consider putting up a good argument as opposed to having this be my first troll post on these forums.

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Excuse me sir, I am no child. I have children of my own. Get a degree, how interesting. You mispelled perfect yet your telling me to get a degree.

Having a degree does not equal intelligence. It doesnt mean your better than everyone else either.

And what the hell are you ranting about....gd. Learn to MAKE SENSE.

Sure fine, WoW's a decent game.. but its still a game, something that people play for enjoyment.  That's the only factor that really matters, are people enjoying playing the game?  If they are, they will vote for it, if not, I guess they will vote for whatever IS fun to them.

It's not like WoW has earned some special right to be ranked high, or that the people that voiced their opinion somehow owed WoW a special place in the list even though they don't enjoy playing it.

All those ratings show is that the majority of people here don't enjoy WoW as much as the other games listed... and thats OK.  Do other people on other sites enjoy WoW?  I'm sure they do, and thats OK to... its the magical power of personal opinion at work

edit:  something I forgot to mention-  I assume the way those ratings work is the number of votes each individual game gets.  If it had each voter ranking their favorite games say 1 to 10 from all the games represented on this site, I'm sure WoW would easily still be in the top 5.  just a thought.

The games rankings here are very biased, and should be taken as such. People come in and vote 10 for the game they like and 1's for everything else.

"All those ratings show is that the majority of people here don't enjoy WoW as much as the other games listed... and thats OK.  Do other people on other sites enjoy WoW?  I'm sure they do, and thats OK to... its the magical power of personal opinion at work "

Exactly, you'll notice that most of the ranked games have 1k-4000 votes which is nothing, when you consider the biased votes. Obviously no game would receive a 1, unless it had for example no customer support at all then it might deserve a 1 in that area. Seemingly People hand out those kind of rankings here all the time.

While my personal opinion is Eve doesnt deserve a spot even in the top10 and Guild Wars isnt even a Mmorpg. When you consider the asian market its very hard to rank games but WOW is no#1 right now , like it or not followed by games like FFX and lineage1-2.

(if you rounded all the gamers up and forced everyone to vote these titles would win by sheer number of votes/players) Games like Eve with a tiny following would of course be lucky to see top20.

Well which side is correct the lower biased votes here or the larger community throwing around their weight with millions of votes? Me ill stick with the numbers, you? ..can decide for yourself.

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Originally posted by Shazzel

(if you rounded all the gamers up and forced everyone to vote these titles would win by sheer number of votes/players) Games like Eve with a tiny following would of course be lucky to see top20.

Well which side is correct the lower biased votes here or the larger community throwing around their weight with millions of votes? Me ill stick with the numbers, you? ..can decide for yourself.

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 the 'larger' community here is biased.. but as is continually pointed out, we are outnumbered in the millions.  Obviously, the vast majority of asain MMORPG players are not represented by the community on this site, so you can safely count them out.  Same is true of the majority of WoW's players, as those millions were not playing any MMO in North America or Europe, as shown by subscription numbers from the games preceding WoW. 

That means a large portion of this comminity is made up of NA and Euro MMORPG players who where around before WoW.  So numbers are on WoW's side-  but your numbers are made up of people who had little to nothing in common with my opinions BEFORE WoW... why would they matter to me, or people like me, now?

so just because a lot more people are playing MMORPG's thanks to WoW, doesn't mean that the average person interested in them as a genre has really changed... and that by and large, the opinions represented by a site like this one haven't changed.

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Gameloading
WoW took all things from other MMO's and put it in one game. complaining about WoW is the same as complaining about the entire mmo genré.

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um...

don't see raiding in eve, ryzom, horizons, uo, swg, the list goes on.

don't see the inability to assign your stat points in a LOT of games.

don't see really incredibly craptastic crafting systems (or the lack of high end craftables) in a lot of games.

but, i agree, wow took a lot of crappy ideas, put a pretty picture to it, and ran with it.

then they stole ideas from players of wc3 (dota for one).  they pissed off blizzard north and are now just continuing to steal ideas from them (socketable items via diablo2 anyone?)  stole raiding from eq -- can't argue that one, kaplan is the assclown who raided his life away in eq.

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Originally posted by logangregor

Eindrachen-- I know my warlock. I dont need your run down on warlock spells. Wanna irritate me more? Keep saying "For pvp only" Cause I could care less for any pve in that game.

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Well, that's your problem.  Because PVE, whether you like it or not, is in fact a big part of it.

If you get irritated, oh, well.

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So for me PvP is all that counts. Moron numero uno was trying to tell me that WoW's classes take one button to kill with ....and I illustrated very nicely how a warlock uses close to 20 spells in pvp regularly.

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What he should have said was that a raid-gear equipped person can two-shot people.  Which may take more than one button, but still, there's that.

And if you use 20 spells in PVP, you're still doing something wrong.

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I dont think wow is the greatest game ever but Ive played NEARLY every game out on the market and for 60 lvls and pre MC its better than anything out. I know it gets old-- and when it gets old- You will hate it. But to say the game is worse than a ton of very dated games (some of which are close to my heart like DAOC) is just wrong.

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No, it's called opinion.  People believe that graphics don't matter as much as gameplay.

If you don't feel that way, good for you.  If that puts you in the minority, well, big whoop.  You shouldn't be all that worried because people rate WOW lower than other games.  It's just a rating, anyway.

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Love it or hate it-- its a well made game.

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Only in the beginning.  After all, you yourself just admitted that it's only good for a specific time (i.e. levelling to end-game).

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Yes there are things I would love to change about it.

Am I playing it now? Nope-- sure not. Which kinda makes me wonder why Mr Offensive isnt playing Guild Wars...... just a thought...I mean if its so great why are you talking about it and not playing it?

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I never said GW was great.  Just said WOW isn't a magic unicorn ride to Awesomeland.  And that your assumption that warlocks have to use 20 buttons to do things is incorrect, because that's just what you yourself did, and is thus not applicable to hardly anyone else.

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Originally posted by Kyoruto

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Originally posted by Celestian

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Originally posted by KyorutoUmm, don't want to sound like an ass or anything, but raiding was prevolant since the pen and paper D&D. ^-^;; Sorry!

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Really? I've played since AD&D1e and I never remember having to get 24-40-72 of my friends to help me slay a dragon. We took 4-8 people to slay the dragon, hardly what any MMO considers a raid.

The reason we have "raids" today is because MMO developers can't think of ways to challenge players that doesn't involve mobs with tons of hitpoints and massively hard hitting attacks.

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Because I totally didn't use that as the referance to where raiding inutually started. I'm sorry you had to twist my words into something completely outa left feild.

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um, what exactly did you say then?  because the quote above from you is rather IN context.  blue box d&d came out in the early 70s.  no interweb or online games (not even bbs) back then.  so um, what raiding EXACTLY dost thou reference?  since it's NOT pnp d&d?

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Gameloading
WoW took all things from other MMO's and put it in one game. complaining about WoW is the same as complaining about the entire mmo genré.

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um...

don't see raiding in eve, ryzom, horizons, uo, swg, the list goes on.

don't see the inability to assign your stat points in a LOT of games.

don't see really incredibly craptastic crafting systems (or the lack of high end craftables) in a lot of games.

but, i agree, wow took a lot of crappy ideas, put a pretty picture to it, and ran with it.

then they stole ideas from players of wc3 (dota for one).  they pissed off blizzard north and are now just continuing to steal ideas from them (socketable items via diablo2 anyone?)  stole raiding from eq -- can't argue that one, kaplan is the assclown who raided his life away in eq.

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since when is WoW all about raiding? oh yes, I forgot. your one of the people who only stick to one character and stays at the endgame forever.

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To the OP -

You have to understand some people have a hard time with WOW's success.  Not sure why but you will see the same WOW haters over and over on these boards.  I am certain Blizzard sleeps well at night with the understanding that these people are entitled to their opinions however in the minority they may be.  WOW is the number 1 rated MMO on the market, everything else is individual's opinions, so ask yourself do you really care what someone on these boards that doesn't know 19 months = over a year thinks?

WoW is a lot about raiding and instancing, and it can get very very boring.

But it does have good aspects taken from other games.

Decent PvP, ok world PvP, Big but immature Community, Good classes -make them fairly diverse, and lot of loot to chose from.

thats bout it.

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Gameloading
WoW took all things from other MMO's and put it in one game. complaining about WoW is the same as complaining about the entire mmo genré.

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um...

don't see raiding in eve, ryzom, horizons, uo, swg, the list goes on.

don't see the inability to assign your stat points in a LOT of games.

don't see really incredibly craptastic crafting systems (or the lack of high end craftables) in a lot of games.

but, i agree, wow took a lot of crappy ideas, put a pretty picture to it, and ran with it.

then they stole ideas from players of wc3 (dota for one).  they pissed off blizzard north and are now just continuing to steal ideas from them (socketable items via diablo2 anyone?)  stole raiding from eq -- can't argue that one, kaplan is the assclown who raided his life away in eq.

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since when is WoW all about raiding? oh yes, I forgot. your one of the people who only stick to one character and stays at the endgame forever.

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do you even know what game we're discussing?  wow - world of warcraft.  YES, wow IS all about raiding.  see kaplan's comments from e3. 


from your statement it seems that YOU do not believe that all wow comes out with are new raids.  so what is it about ? game...loading....

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Originally posted by Gameloading

I played the game since the very first US stress test and have plenty of characters at lvl 60. I think I know what game we are talking about. I also raided molten core only 4 times. I simply don't stick to only one character, I take advantage of the many diffrent classes and diffrent factions. but ofcourse, that is my way of playing. and I always enjoyed it. but,ofcourse, I should play it on your way and get bored very fast and come to a forum to tell everybody how much it sucks, right?

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Well, if your idea of fun is accessing the same content with different characters, and doing much of the same stuff over and over again, well, hell, you got us there.

Me, I just like having a few more different things to do.  But that's just me...

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Originally posted by Eindrachen

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Originally posted by Gameloading

I played the game since the very first US stress test and have plenty of characters at lvl 60. I think I know what game we are talking about. I also raided molten core only 4 times. I simply don't stick to only one character, I take advantage of the many diffrent classes and diffrent factions. but ofcourse, that is my way of playing. and I always enjoyed it. but,ofcourse, I should play it on your way and get bored very fast and come to a forum to tell everybody how much it sucks, right?

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Well, if your idea of fun is accessing the same content with different characters, and doing much of the same stuff over and over again, well, hell, you got us there.

Me, I just like having a few more different things to do.  But that's just me...

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Originally posted by Pride7

To the OP -

You have to understand some people have a hard time with WOW's success.  Not sure why but you will see the same WOW haters over and over on these boards.  I am certain Blizzard sleeps well at night with the understanding that these people are entitled to their opinions however in the minority they may be.  WOW is the number 1 rated MMO on the market, everything else is individual's opinions, so ask yourself do you really care what someone on these boards that doesn't know 19 months = over a year thinks?

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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I played the game since the very first US stress test and have plenty of characters at lvl 60. I think I know what game we are talking about. I also raided molten core only 4 times. I simply don't stick to only one character, I take advantage of the many diffrent classes and diffrent factions. but ofcourse, that is my way of playing. and I always enjoyed it. but,ofcourse, I should play it on your way and get bored very fast and come to a forum to tell everybody how much it sucks, right?

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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I played the game since the very first US stress test and have plenty of characters at lvl 60. I think I know what game we are talking about. I also raided molten core only 4 times. I simply don't stick to only one character, I take advantage of the many diffrent classes and diffrent factions. but ofcourse, that is my way of playing. and I always enjoyed it. but,ofcourse, I should play it on your way and get bored very fast and come to a forum to tell everybody how much it sucks, right?

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not my way to play it... it's the game's DEVELOPER's way of playing it, hence my "kaplan" comment.  you know who he is right?  i mean, you've played since the very first US stress test and you know all about his "learn2raid" type comments and his obsession with adding nothing but raiding content, right?  so maybe you should show your ass to the game's dev, and not me, you're not playing the game the way HE designed it to be.

take your sign.

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Originally posted by Greyhammer

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Originally posted by Pride7

To the OP -

You have to understand some people have a hard time with WOW's success.  Not sure why but you will see the same WOW haters over and over on these boards.  I am certain Blizzard sleeps well at night with the understanding that these people are entitled to their opinions however in the minority they may be.  WOW is the number 1 rated MMO on the market, everything else is individual's opinions, so ask yourself do you really care what someone on these boards that doesn't know 19 months = over a year thinks?

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I don't buy the "WoW dropped off the top 7 list because there are those who want to see it fail" line of reasoning. Anti-EvE folks hate that game rabidly and yet it has yet to realy lose its lock on the top spot.

Simply put, WoW dropped off the list because of these things:

- A crappy community
- A crappy endgame
- People outgrowing it

Guild Wars is ranked higher because you don't have to pay monthly, which shoots it value rating WAY up, and also because there are many people who prefer the type of gameplay it provides. Do I agree with GW's being that high? No, but it is understandable.

I left WoW because of the horrid community, the zerg-o-matic endgame, and the lack of player ability required to succeed in it. People will continue to like it, with a good portion made up of the people who have played no other MMO's besides WoW.

I hold this site's ratings in high regard because the people who post and write here are focused on the genre, not gaming as a whole. But, hey, if you like WoW, don't let the ratings here throw you off; continue playing the game you like. Taken objectively, the ratings are deserved and a better barometer of a good MMO than most lists out there.

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I don't know who Kaplan is.

I've never played with him, I have no idea what his way of playing is. I've heard the name bandied about in the last two WoW threads on this forum, that's all. It makes no difference to me, I play my games however I like, with whoever I like.

For my money Raiding is additional end game material. It's there if you want to try it, but you are not forced to if you don't. There is plenty of other pursuits to do instead, like exploring and questing and PvP and battlegrounds and trading and crafting, like grinding for rare items, power leveling or whatever else it is you do when you do what you do. I spent half my time in WoW doing the engame. Raiding wasn't by any means an overwhelming part of that experience.

Better it's there than it's missing, that's what I say.

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Originally posted by Pride7

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Originally posted by Greyhammer

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Originally posted by Pride7

To the OP -

You have to understand some people have a hard time with WOW's success.  Not sure why but you will see the same WOW haters over and over on these boards.  I am certain Blizzard sleeps well at night with the understanding that these people are entitled to their opinions however in the minority they may be.  WOW is the number 1 rated MMO on the market, everything else is individual's opinions, so ask yourself do you really care what someone on these boards that doesn't know 19 months = over a year thinks?

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I don't buy the "WoW dropped off the top 7 list because there are those who want to see it fail" line of reasoning. Anti-EvE folks hate that game rabidly and yet it has yet to realy lose its lock on the top spot.

Simply put, WoW dropped off the list because of these things:

- A crappy community
- A crappy endgame
- People outgrowing it

Guild Wars is ranked higher because you don't have to pay monthly, which shoots it value rating WAY up, and also because there are many people who prefer the type of gameplay it provides. Do I agree with GW's being that high? No, but it is understandable.

I left WoW because of the horrid community, the zerg-o-matic endgame, and the lack of player ability required to succeed in it. People will continue to like it, with a good portion made up of the people who have played no other MMO's besides WoW.

I hold this site's ratings in high regard because the people who post and write here are focused on the genre, not gaming as a whole. But, hey, if you like WoW, don't let the ratings here throw you off; continue playing the game you like. Taken objectively, the ratings are deserved and a better barometer of a good MMO than most lists out there.

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It is way too easy to create a 2nd, 3rd, or even 50th account on this site in an effort to bring down a game's rating or to boost another.  Since that is the case I would be more willing to consider facts such as industry reviews, NPD Sales Data, MMOGCHART.com, or GameRankings.com. 

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Sorry but this seems a bit too conspicary theory for my tastes.

- A crappy community
- A crappy endgame
- People outgrowing it

I'll go along with the third option.

But the community can't be worse than in Guild Wars, where there is no entrance fee to keep the kids numbers down, and the PvP is a large factor complete with prize money to bait the over serious. 

I found the WoW community to be identical to all of the other MMO communities (Planetside excluded), and even include many of the same faces I had found in other games, not to mention personal friends from around the world. Crucially the now distant friends factor means this had the best community yet. WoW is so accessable. I think Guild Wars could be this accessable too, since it has low spec hardware requirements a good game and no monthlies.

I also found the endgame to be the most developed of all MMO's I have ever played. Most MMO's don't even have one. They best they can offer is player driven stuff. For $15 a month, I don't expect to have invent something for myself to do.  

 Basicly in WoW you spam one attack and jump around in circles. Bada-bing Bada-boom you've unlocked the secret to being good in WoW.

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Originally posted by Gameloading

Thats the whole point. I like it, but I also would like to see it better. but fact remains there is NO other mmorpg that lets me do something else then doing the same stuff over and over again.

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CoX is pretty good at at least pretending to be dynamic.  It's still not quite there, but it's close.

EQ2 does about equal to WOW on most things.  I found the crafting more compelling.  Graphics are way different (I wouldn't even say better or worse; they appeal to different tastes), but the gameplay is just as compelling, it seemed.

I'd resub to WOW now if they fixed PVP, and made crafting better.  I'd be happier with some more group or mini-raid (10- to 15-man raids) content, but eh, PVP and crafting would be a big enough improvement.

But naw, I just ain't got any time to raid as much as WOW takes.  I did some raids as a fill-in for absentees, but I can't guarentee a schedule to raid with.  And farming got old quick, fast, and in a hurry; once you master the techniques for grinding mobs in Winterspring, it kinda gets repetitive.

And paying to play a game that's not that much fun anymore seems ridiculous.  It's like paying for a movie and just throwing the ticket away, or paying for satellite TV and not actually owning a TV.

But I'm patient.  I am willing to give BC a try when it hits, and I'm eager to see what AoC and WAR have to offer when they hit.

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Originally posted by baff

I also found the endgame to be the most developed of all MMO's I have ever played. Most MMO's don't even have one. They best they can offer is player driven stuff. For $15 a month, I don't expect to have invent something for myself to do.  

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there you have it. that is all that was needed to say. you dont want to invent anything for yourself to do. you want everything given to you just like a movie. please, dont you dare to think for yourself.

that sentence quite explained the problem here. some people do not like to think while playing. they believe that games require skill when you need to move your mouse faster than the crappy AI can cope with.

other people like to think whlie playing, like open-endness, freedom, choices. they believe a game takes skill when the more intelligent you are, the better player you get at that game.

so, 2 choices:

1. IF YOU DONT LIKE THINKING, AND WANT EVERYTHING HANDED ON YOU, CAUSE YOUR ARE PAYING TO SAVE YOURSELF FROM THINKING ------->>> YOU WANT TO PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT

2. IF YOU LIKE TO THINK WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING, AND LIKE TO INVENT (OHHHHHHHHHHH, I SAID THE FORBIDEN WORD, INVENT) NEW THINGS AND NEW WAYS TO PLAY THE GAME, AND BEING ABLE TO DO THINGS NOBODY HAS DONE BEFORE ------>>>>> YOU DONT WANT TO PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT

i like to think that mmorpg.com has more people that would choose the second option, and it gets reflected on the ratings here.

but hey, we are the minority, at least 6 million gamers have decided that they didnt want to invent anything new or be required to think while they are just relaxing and playing a game

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Originally posted by apertotes

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Originally posted by baff

I also found the endgame to be the most developed of all MMO's I have ever played. Most MMO's don't even have one. They best they can offer is player driven stuff. For $15 a month, I don't expect to have invent something for myself to do.  

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there you have it. that is all that was needed to say. you dont want to invent anything for yourself to do. you want everything given to you just like a movie. please, dont you dare to think for yourself.

that sentence quite explained the problem here. some people do not like to think while playing. they believe that games require skill when you need to move your mouse faster than the crappy AI can cope with.

other people like to think whlie playing, like open-endness, freedom, choices. they believe a game takes skill when the more intelligent you are, the better player you get at that game.

so, 2 choices:

1. IF YOU DONT LIKE THINKING, AND WANT EVERYTHING HANDED ON YOU, CAUSE YOUR ARE PAYING TO SAVE YOURSELF FROM THINKING ------->>> YOU WANT TO PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT

2. IF YOU LIKE TO THINK WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING, AND LIKE TO INVENT (OHHHHHHHHHHH, I SAID THE FORBIDEN WORD, INVENT) NEW THINGS AND NEW WAYS TO PLAY THE GAME, AND BEING ABLE TO DO THINGS NOBODY HAS DONE BEFORE ------>>>>> YOU DONT WANT TO PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT

i like to think that mmorpg.com has more people that would choose the second option, and it gets reflected on the ratings here.

but hey, we are the minority, at least 6 million gamers have decided that they didnt want to invent anything new or be required to think while they are just relaxing and playing a game

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Originally posted by baff

I don't know who Kaplan is.

I've never played with him, I have no idea what his way of playing is. I've heard the name bandied about in the last two WoW threads on this forum, that's all. It makes no difference to me, I play my games however I like, with whoever I like.

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Jeff Kaplan, once known as "Tigole" in Everquest, was a big raiding gamer back-when.  He was brought in as lead developer fairly early last year or late the year before that.  In a NYT interview, he intimated that raiding was the only form of gaming he felt should be rewarded in the game.  (I think the interview got locked behind a subscription service, so you may have to dig around for the full copy.)

Some of his old EQ-era talk about non-raiders is pretty harsh; to say that he really does believe in the "raid or die" philosophy is an understatement.

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For my money Raiding is additional end game material. It's there if you want to try it, but you are not forced to if you don't. There is plenty of other pursuits to do instead, like exploring and questing and PvP and battlegrounds and trading and crafting, like grinding for rare items, power leveling or whatever else it is you do when you do what you do. I spent half my time in WoW doing the engame. Raiding wasn't by any means an overwhelming part of that experience.

Better it's there than it's missing, that's what I say.

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I agree, totally, but a lot of debate is over how much importance it should play vs. the other content.  Raiding appears to be used as the only significant end-game advancement; even PVP and crafting in WOW at end-game are vastly inferior, save a few individual items, and consumables.