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UncleSanta Novice Member Joined: 7/22/05 Posts: 99	6/12/06 8:34:20 AM#361 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by UncleSanta So much hate over a kiddie game. It makes baby Jesus cry! Why can't we all be friends? SANTA~!! i want robotic rabbits with laser beam eyes and great huge fang-ed teeth~!! Have you been a good boy? Think I better check my list!
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damian7 Apprentice Member Joined: 4/20/06 Posts: 4514 why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?	6/12/06 8:34:34 AM#362 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by Gameloading FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. horizons, eve, ryzom, uo (yes even uo), shadowbane, COx, to just list 6. but i'm sure everyone has their opinions, and people who can only flame, will flame, because well, they're stupid. could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Gameloading Novice Member Joined: 2/27/04 Posts: 14172	6/12/06 8:44:11 AM#363 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Gameloading FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. horizons, eve, ryzom, uo (yes even uo), shadowbane, COx, to just list 6. but i'm sure everyone has their opinions, and people who can only flame, will flame, because well, they're stupid.
damian7 Apprentice Member Joined: 4/20/06 Posts: 4514 why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?	6/12/06 8:54:57 AM#364 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by Gameloading *Originally posted by damian7* *Originally posted by Gameloading* FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. horizons, eve, ryzom, uo (yes even uo), shadowbane, COx, to just list 6. but i'm sure everyone has their opinions, and people who can only flame, will flame, because well, they're stupid. funny thing about that, you're one of the flamers. edited for elaboration (using small words): you have taken a single comment from a post (out of context) on a few occasions, ignored the rest of the post in it's entirety, and then acted like that one non-contextual line was the meat of the post and replied to it in a derogatory fashion. now, it could be english isn't your native tongue and you actually don't understand. if that's the case, i retract my previous statement. if not, then i stand by it. could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Gameloading Novice Member Joined: 2/27/04 Posts: 14172	6/12/06 8:57:45 AM#365 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by damian7 *Originally posted by Gameloading* *Originally posted by damian7* *Originally posted by Gameloading* FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. horizons, eve, ryzom, uo (yes even uo), shadowbane, COx, to just list 6. but i'm sure everyone has their opinions, and people who can only flame, will flame, because well, they're stupid. funny thing about that, you're one of the flamers. haha, your really the right person to say that, aren't you ;) oh well, I geuss this proves your not really someone to be taken seriously.
damian7 Apprentice Member Joined: 4/20/06 Posts: 4514 why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?	6/12/06 9:12:11 AM#366 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by Gameloading *Originally posted by damian7* *Originally posted by Gameloading* *Originally posted by damian7* *Originally posted by Gameloading* FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. horizons, eve, ryzom, uo (yes even uo), shadowbane, COx, to just list 6. but i'm sure everyone has their opinions, and people who can only flame, will flame, because well, they're stupid. funny thing about that, you're one of the flamers. haha, your really the right person to say that, aren't you ;) oh well, I geuss this proves your not really someone to be taken seriously. see, people that can actually read and do bother to follow threads like this, will see how asinine that statement is. i'll make a point, or defend a point someone else has made (or maybe numerous points), normally i'll then use smaller words in a follow-up post, followed by an even more dummied down version; THEN, it gets frustrating because the flamers are either intentionally misreading and misunderstanding the posts, OR they are really that stupid that they can't understand. not really able to make a judgement call on if it's just one of the two or both. doesn't matter, what matters is that they type stupid things and because it's something THEY typed, then (in their minds) it MUST be true; otherwise, they wouldn't have typed it. so join your fellows in the corner with the signs. edited to add -- political correctness is an exercise in stupidity and an attempt to circumvent a human 'survival of the fittest' theory. if you're someone that is stupid (either intentionally or well because you live in mommy's basement for decades; then prepare to be called on it. i'm sick of people having to walk on eggshells because some ignoramic mama's baby is gonna whine that his/her wittle feelings were hurt. that's as ludicrous as people taking offense at any name a person could come up with in city of VILLAINS. for god's sake, the game is about mass murdering, egomaniacal maniacs who (just by doing the storyline missions) put people like hitler, stalin and all modern day terrorists to shame when compared to the villainy of said COV toon. yet people whine and complain about that too. brilliant. edited again to correct a couple of typos because i'm too st00pid to use the preview option. could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Minsc Hard Core Member Joined: 2/07/04 Posts: 1228	6/12/06 9:20:45 AM#367 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by Precusor So.. that site gave WoW a 8.5 while mmorpg.com gave it a 8.1 liek omgawd Not quite as big of a gap as the 7.7 it gives Eve but still #1. Personally I think the average score of 91.5% is a little more telling. FYI they gave EVE Online: EXODUS an 89%, but nice try.
RollinDutch Novice Member Joined: 5/30/06 Posts: 553	6/12/06 9:32:37 AM#368 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by Gameloading FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. Time played in EVE is far more valuable as player experience then character. Saying that its impossible to compete in EVE because there are people who have been playing longer (and have more SP) is akin to saying that its impossible to compete in WoW because there are people who have been playing longer (and have more epics).
Gameloading Novice Member Joined: 2/27/04 Posts: 14172	6/12/06 9:36:10 AM#369 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Gameloading *Originally posted by damian7* *Originally posted by Gameloading* *Originally posted by damian7* *Originally posted by Gameloading* FINALLY somebody who answered my question. if you hate WoW so much, then mention a better game to play. well I see this comes out...EVE..a game where time played > all even more then other games, a very bad skill system and s l o w....well, I rest my case. horizons, eve, ryzom, uo (yes even uo), shadowbane, COx, to just list 6. but i'm sure everyone has their opinions, and people who can only flame, will flame, because well, they're stupid. funny thing about that, you're one of the flamers. haha, your really the right person to say that, aren't you ;) oh well, I geuss this proves your not really someone to be taken seriously. see, people that can actually read and do bother to follow threads like this, will see how asinine that statement is. i'll make a point, or defend a point someone else has made (or maybe numerous points), normally i'll then use smaller words in a follow-up post, followed by an even more dummied down version; THEN, it gets frustrating because the flamers are either intentionally misreading and misunderstanding the posts, OR they are really that stupid that they can't understand. not really able to make a judgement call on if it's just one of the two or both. doesn't matter, what matters is that they type stupid things and because it's something THEY typed, then (in their minds) it MUST be true; otherwise, they wouldn't have typed it. so join your fellows in the corner with the signs. edited to add -- political correctness is an exercise in stupidity and an attempt to circumvent a human 'survival of the fittest' theory. if you're someone that is stupid (either intentionally or well because you live in mommy's basement for decades; then prepare to be called on it. i'm sick of people having to walk on eggshells because some ignoramic mama's baby is gonna whine that his/her wittle feelings were hurt. that's as ludicrous as people taking offense at any name a person could come up with in city of VILLAINS. for god's sake, the game is about mass murdering, egomaniacal maniacs who (just by doing the storyline missions) put people like hitler, stalin and all modern day terrorists to shame when compared to the villainy of said COV toon. yet people whine and complain about that too. brilliant. edited again to correct a couple of typos because i'm too st00pid to use the preview option. it would help a lot of you stopped that my opinnion=fact attitude. you never bring up anything to back up your statement, except for your own oppinion. Pride has bring up a lot of numbers to prove his point.
baff Novice Member Joined: 5/22/05 Posts: 9470	6/12/06 9:37:57 AM#370 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by apertotes the problem with everybody that posted here to defend wow, is that they just posted numbers, reviews and more numbers. but they didnt say why wow is better. for example, EVE is the bestestestestestest mmorpg because of open pvp, full looting, FREEDOM, you can be a pirate, player run economy, skill based advancement, harsh death penalty, player controlled universe, lack of endgame, meaningfun crafting, reasearch, lots of roleplaying players and the incredible fact that everybody plays on the same universe. WoW is crap because of useless crafting, silly level advancement, stupid and unbalanced pvp, no way to influence the game world at all, no death penalty, boring endgame. it has some good things like easy level progression and nice quests. In the end, for me wow is a simple single player quest game, with more people playing at the same time. if you dont do quests, there is nothing to do. i mean, look at the clases. everybody is a fighter or some sort of related combat character. EVE is a virtual universe when you can do almost anything you want. there are many people that dont do quests at all, and they can advance through the game the same than people doing missions. you can be a pirate, a body hunter, a trader, a miner, a scientist, a leader, politician, mercenary, producer, a fighter, or any combination of all those different professions. so, this is what i would like to see on other posts, instead of countless numbers. cause numbers say nothing. just say why is wow such a good game. what does it make it original, deep, complex, interesting and special. why is wow better than DAoC or EQ2? because like the OP said, here, on this site, WoW is sinking on the ratings. it started at 8.9, and now is at 8.1 tied with AO, AC and flyff. so, why all of you believe WoW is a better than all those games, apart from the fact that it sold many many many more copies and is way more popular? Eve has no engame, too many PvP zones which are radically unbalanced, nothing to explore, and a money sink skill system that rewards people for how much real life money they have spent only and maintains a hierachy clique of old players at the expense of new arrivals. The software is unstable and the gameplay is too slow to fully occupy you while playing. Eve's gameplay is largely player lead. I.E. not scripted at all, while you can be anyone of those professions you mentioned in Eve you can also be anyone of those same professions in WoW. I do not need to pay £10 a month for player led games. I can get that on MSN Messenger. I like to buy products with actual content built in. Wow missions, instances, ai and adventures are more intresting. Eve is not accessable. The pace of gameplay, the style of the game, the cost of playing and all the rest make Eve the kind of game that doesn't appeal to very many people. The chances of all your friends wanting to play this game together are very slim. These are the reasons, that although I enjoyed both, I enjoyed WoW more.
RollinDutch Novice Member Joined: 5/30/06 Posts: 553	6/12/06 9:41:27 AM#371 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by baff Eve has no engame, too many PvP zones which are radically unbalanced, nothing to explore, and a money sink skill system that rewards people for how much real life money they have spent only and maintains a hierachy clique of old players at the expense of new arrivals. The software is unstable and the gameplay is too slow to fully occupy you while playing. Eve's gameplay is largely player lead. I.E. not scripted at all, while you can be anyone of those professions you mentioned in Eve you can also be anyone of those same professions in WoW. I do not need to pay £10 a month for player led games. I can get that on MSN Messenger. I like to buy products with actual content built in. Wow missions, instances, ai and adventures are more intresting. Eve is not accessable. The pace of gameplay, the style of the game, the cost of playing and all the rest make Eve the kind of game that doesn't appeal to very many people. The chances of all your friends wanting to play this game together are very slim. These are the reasons, that although I enjoyed both, I enjoyed WoW more. Thats fair enough. The game is NOT PvE centric, and in fact does a very poor job with PvE compared to essentially any other MMOG on the market. It was not designed as a PvE game and shouldnt (IMO) be played as one. If you'd rather have a PvE game, then EVE is certainly not for you.
angelofmercy Novice Member Joined: 8/05/05 Posts: 29	6/12/06 9:53:21 AM#372 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by RollinDutch Originally posted by baff Eve has no engame, too many PvP zones which are radically unbalanced, nothing to explore, and a money sink skill system that rewards people for how much real life money they have spent only and maintains a hierachy clique of old players at the expense of new arrivals. The software is unstable and the gameplay is too slow to fully occupy you while playing. Eve's gameplay is largely player lead. I.E. not scripted at all, while you can be anyone of those professions you mentioned in Eve you can also be anyone of those same professions in WoW. I do not need to pay £10 a month for player led games. I can get that on MSN Messenger. I like to buy products with actual content built in. Wow missions, instances, ai and adventures are more intresting. Eve is not accessable. The pace of gameplay, the style of the game, the cost of playing and all the rest make Eve the kind of game that doesn't appeal to very many people. The chances of all your friends wanting to play this game together are very slim. These are the reasons, that although I enjoyed both, I enjoyed WoW more. Thats fair enough. The game is NOT PvE centric, and in fact does a very poor job with PvE compared to essentially any other MMOG on the market. It was not designed as a PvE game and shouldnt (IMO) be played as one. If you'd rather have a PvE game, then EVE is certainly not for you. Eve has no end game: indeed not, hence why you do not get bored of it. Stability issues: what stabilitie issues? do you even play??? :-S Player driven economy: damn right - which means you can ALWAYS negociate for any items (ie:@ trade battleships with someone etc...) Maintaints a hierarchy of old player at the expense of old players: errrr.. login, go to oursulaert or Jita, and check how many "under 1 months" player hangs around. As far as the price is concerned, £10 is reasonable for anygames really... That's about £0.33/day... mmm do you smoke? :-P Gameplay is slow? come and meet me in G7-Wuf, I'll show you slow gameplay ^_^, or take on a Level4 mission from a security agent, even a Battleship can struggle to do these... I think you should try to PLAY the game for a month first of all... I played Wow for 3 before getting it down to the trash... but at least I tried it for a certain amount of time... About the part saying you can be of the same profession, that is where eve is special, it is next to impossible to get 2 people being as good as each others.... the skill tree they will have will always be different, hence if you think PvP is inbalanced, either you simply can't fly the ship well, your setup is wrong, or your skills sucks (sorry no other way to put that...) - last option being a gate gank in 0.0 :-P ... anyway, I'm not sure what more you can expect for fast peace game, try joining an alliance and live in 0.0... hell I did it for 4 months, and I went back to empire to take some holidays ^_^ I'm not sure what you meant by eve is not accessible though... As far as the Pve is concerned, yes, they are pretty crappy and dumb... that can't be argued with ^_^ ------------------------------------------------------------ No trees were hurt while sending this message.However a Large amount of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. ------------------------------------------------------------ Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
RollinDutch Novice Member Joined: 5/30/06 Posts: 553	6/12/06 10:00:53 AM#373 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by angelofmercy Eve has no end game: indeed not, hence why you do not get bored of it. Stability issues: what stabilitie issues? do you even play??? :-S Player driven economy: damn right - which means you can ALWAYS negociate for any items (ie:@ trade battleships with someone etc...) Maintaints a hierarchy of old player at the expense of old players: errrr.. login, go to oursulaert or Jita, and check how many "under 1 months" player hangs around. As far as the price is concerned, £10 is reasonable for anygames really... That's about £0.33/day... mmm do you smoke? :-P Gameplay is slow? come and meet me in G7-Wuf, I'll show you slow gameplay ^_^, or take on a Level4 mission from a security agent, even a Battleship can struggle to do these... I think you should try to PLAY the game for a month first of all... I played Wow for 3 before getting it down to the trash... but at least I tried it for a certain amount of time... About the part saying you can be of the same profession, that is where eve is special, it is next to impossible to get 2 people being as good as each others.... the skill tree they will have will always be different, hence if you think PvP is inbalanced, either you simply can't fly the ship well, your setup is wrong, or your skills sucks (sorry no other way to put that...) - last option being a gate gank in 0.0 :-P ... anyway, I'm not sure what more you can expect for fast peace game, try joining an alliance and live in 0.0... hell I did it for 4 months, and I went back to empire to take some holidays ^_^ I'm not sure what you meant by eve is not accessible though... As far as the Pve is concerned, yes, they are pretty crappy and dumb... that can't be argued with ^_^ Stop going fanboi-insane and trying to sell a game to someone who doesnt like the concept. Its tiresome.
angelofmercy Novice Member Joined: 8/05/05 Posts: 29	6/12/06 10:14:24 AM#374 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by RollinDutch Stop going fanboi-insane and trying to sell a game to someone who doesnt like the concept. Its tiresome. ...But it helps filling my day at work... so... want a 15 days free pass? :-P ------------------------------------------------------------ No trees were hurt while sending this message.However a Large amount of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. ------------------------------------------------------------ Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Greyhammer Novice Member Joined: 8/08/05 Posts: 29 "Bah."	6/12/06 10:18:51 AM#375 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) I personally don't think the ratings on this site are that far off. In fact, I think they're a pretty good barometer of the MMO community - not the gaming community, two different things - and how it feels about the big boys on the block. I've played pretty much all the big boys in the top ten. I thing WoW should be in the top ten- probably third or fourth. I agree with EVE being where it is, because it doesn't get much more MMO than EvE. I would probably put EQ2 next, then WoW. The Saga of Ryzom should have a place on the list (as it does now), as well as the venerable DAoC and AO. But hey - my 1 rating is far less credible than the ratings of thousands that make up the MMORPG.com top ten list. That's why I think it's believable. The fact the EvE has remained number 1 for so long, against so many on these boards that would love to see it fall, give credence to the game's quality. The Greyhammer Timeline (Games Played > 1 month) 1999 >-- Everquest -- Dark Age of Camelot -- Everquest -- Anarchy Online -- Everquest -- Star Wars Galaxies -- Final Fantasy XI -- Everquest -- World of Warcraft -- Everquest 2 -- EVE Online --> 2006 Playing Navy Field (www.navyfield.com) and waiting for Vanguard.
Minsc Hard Core Member Joined: 2/07/04 Posts: 1228	6/12/06 10:41:15 AM#376 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by baff Eve has no engame, too many PvP zones which are radically unbalanced, nothing to explore, and a money sink skill system that rewards people for how much real life money they have spent only and maintains a hierachy clique of old players at the expense of new arrivals. The software is unstable and the gameplay is too slow to fully occupy you while playing. Eve's gameplay is largely player lead. I.E. not scripted at all, while you can be anyone of those professions you mentioned in Eve you can also be anyone of those same professions in WoW. I do not need to pay £10 a month for player led games. I can get that on MSN Messenger. I like to buy products with actual content built in. Wow missions, instances, ai and adventures are more intresting. Eve is not accessable. The pace of gameplay, the style of the game, the cost of playing and all the rest make Eve the kind of game that doesn't appeal to very many people. The chances of all your friends wanting to play this game together are very slim. These are the reasons, that although I enjoyed both, I enjoyed WoW more. EVE has plenty of endgame, it's called alliance warfare. Oh, and the average amount of SP that most EVE players have is about 10-15 million, that's around what a 1 year old character would have, 2-3 year old players are a minority in EVE. There are a vast number of players in the game that are far younger than me and far more successful. I have no more stability issues with EVE than I do any other MMORPG, I've had the game crash maybe 10 times in the 3 years I've been playing, when wow first came out it crashed on me more than that in the first week, when I could get in to play due to the retarded queues. There are scripted A.I. enemies in EVE and they are about as challenging as A.I. mobs in any other MMO, i.e. not at all. Player created content is and will always be far more compelling and challenging. You say you can be pirate in WoW? How? You can't hold someone ransom till they give you money, nor can you kill them and take thier stuff when they refuse. You can corspe camp them for a few hours but that isn't pirating that's greifing. Also, you can't be a full-on crafter in WoW either, you need to adventure at some point in order to be able to use all of the best recipies in the game, so you JUST be a crafter in that game. EVE's open-endedness allows players to create a carreer to fit whatever they want to do in the game, they just have to have the brains to think it up. As for developer made content being better that player made content, I strongly disagree. Dev made content is easy, there is no challenge in it. That bores the living crap out of me. I can do it with my eyes closed. Especially WoW's cut-and-paste re-use of the same types of quests over and over again. If you find that interesting then so be it, but that equates to the jerry springer of mmo content as far as I'm concerned. As for EVE not being accessable, well certainly not in the kindergarden way that WoW is, but the gameplay experience is certainly more rewarding for those that play it and well worth the effort it requires. Either way, we'll see how the China server goes over, last I read 800,000 people signed up for the open beta.
shmig Novice Member Joined: 11/06/03 Posts: 43	6/12/06 12:24:32 PM#377 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Now only if there wasn't so much downtime while playing Eve. I could finish a novel in the time it takes me to rebuild my ship from choosing the wrong agent mission.
Minsc Hard Core Member Joined: 2/07/04 Posts: 1228	6/12/06 12:32:18 PM#378 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by shmig Now only if there wasn't so much downtime while playing Eve. I could finish a novel in the time it takes me to rebuild my ship from choosing the wrong agent mission. I wouldn't call that a failing of the game so much. There are no wrong agent missions, but there are plenty of wrong ship fittings for completing them. When I'm doing agent missions the only real downtime I have is collecting loot cans after finishing them, partly because I'm such a klepto ingame. Travelling is a total of 5 minutes each way and 75% of the rest of the time is doing the actual mission. You are never REQUIRED to travel in EVE unless you CHOOSE to do trade/courier missions. Some people enjoy them just as some people enjoy mining but both of those activities are entirely OPTIONAL.
baff Novice Member Joined: 5/22/05 Posts: 9470	6/12/06 12:40:13 PM#379 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by angelofmercy Eve has no end game: indeed not, hence why you do not get bored of it. Incorrect. Eve has no end game: indeed hence why you do not get bored of it. Not only does it not have an end game, it doesn't have much of a beginning game or a middle game either. I get very bored of big empty spaces with nothing to do. I quite enjoyed all the mad things people do when they are all online in the same game with nothing to do. But you get that in every MMO. Eve is not accessable. Take 20 gamers and 19 of them won't want to play Eve. So if you want to enjoy a game with all your friends most likely Eve isn't for you.
Minsc Hard Core Member Joined: 2/07/04 Posts: 1228	6/12/06 1:17:00 PM#380 Report this post Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.) Originally posted by baff Originally posted by angelofmercy Eve has no end game: indeed not, hence why you do not get bored of it. Incorrect. Eve has no end game: indeed hence why you do not get bored of it. Not only does it not have an end game, it doesn't have much of a beginning game or a middle game either. I get very bored of big empty spaces with nothing to do. I quite enjoyed all the mad things people do when they are all online in the same game with nothing to do. But you get that in every MMO. Eve is not accessable. Take 20 gamers and 19 of them won't want to play Eve. So if you want to enjoy a game with all your friends most likely Eve isn't for you. Or more accurately, 19 out of 20 will never have heard of it.