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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by n2sooners

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

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OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

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I really don't think it matters too much, because they're the ones who own the Intellectual Property. Perhaps there is a loan, and perhaps there is interest that need be paid back...but whoever made the loan would have as little say in the project as your bank would have on where you drove your car on your next vacation.

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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by n2sooners

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

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OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

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Originally posted by Shayde

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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by n2sooners

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

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OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

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Exactly. Brad PROBABLY leveraged the buyout with whatever $OE paid them. Money doesn't just magically appear, especially totals like that.

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I thought you were in exile, troll.

Money doesn't magically appear, true...but SoE isn't the only one that has money, there are plenty of places the cash could have come from...including banks, stock holders, and the like.

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Originally posted by Wildcat84
As someone who played SWG through 2 catastrophic revisions to the system, and one who was (pre-SOE) looking at Vanguard, I give you two hard and solid reasons to avoid _ANY_ MMO that has SOE anywhere near it:

Combat Upgrade
New Game Experience

I rest my case.

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QFE

I was following Vanguard too, untill I found out that SOE had got involved.  Now there is just no way.  No way will I ever touch a product that I know SOE is connected with.

Having expierenced first hand what SOE can and will do gives me a strong suspicion that something bad will happen with Vanguard.  It might be 6 months or even a year after going live.  But knowing SOE....they'll try and pull something

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by Shayde

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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by n2sooners

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

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OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

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Exactly. Brad PROBABLY leveraged the buyout with whatever $OE paid them. Money doesn't just magically appear, especially totals like that.

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I thought you were in exile, troll.

Money doesn't magically appear, true...but SoE isn't the only one that has money, there are plenty of places the cash could have come from...including banks, stock holders, and the like.

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Let's look at a timeline instead of just quoting Brad.

Time 1: Sigil pitches the game to Microsoft and they like the Vision (tm). They like it so much they are willing to invest many millions of dollars and fund its development over the course of many years.

Time 2: Brad and Co. work on the game for years, all the while touting the freedom MS affords them to make the game the way Sigil wants, and the harmonious relationship they enjoy.

Time 3: Game goes into closed Beta.

Time 4: Suddenly, out of the blue, Sigil needs a new financial backer and a new publisher because of alleged differences with MS about how the game should be made, and an alleged need for more control.

Think about this. What really changed? It's obvious. The beta. MS saw something in the beta that caused them to realize that this was going to be a turd. Why else would they walk away from a return on their investment as the game is approaching launch in the next six months or so? MS saw the feedback and said "fix this crap" and Brad said no and had to buy them out instead.

So the question each of you has to answer is, do you think MS are fools? Do you think they are unable to see the problems? Do you think they just hate money and walked away from something that was clearly going to be a huge success? Do you think they would have had those reservations if, as Brad likes to imply, the beta testers like the game and are raving about how great it is? You know better.

I'm not sure MS exactly knows what goes into making an MMO.  I'm not impressed with any of their attempts except for maybe AC1.  And I remember with their release of AC2, that MS had turbine release a game that contained none of the ground breaking concepts that Turbine had advertised, and that it was also months earlier than the original release date.  Heck AC2 was nothing more than a map with some monsters and that was it.  And oh ya, I think we got chat sometimes, but more often than not chat was broken.  A lot of times, Microsoft loses money on their secondary businesses outside of their flagship products, so I'm not sure they exactly know to spot a good thing or not.
I don't like Sony much more, but honestly in my eyes they both come out of the same mold.  But one thing I do like in SOE over MS is that SOE has shown that they will support a game forever, while MS will drop a game the second it loses popularity.

I still don't like the politics that go into SOE games tho.

We wouldnt be having this conversation if SOE where not SOE - remember that.  The marriage of Sigil and SOE has polarized the community and caused divisions where no divisions existed before.

1. You have the camp who takes the consumerism stance that SOE has a bad rep so they speak with their dollar and never play anything anywhere near affiliated with SOE ever ever again. -- Think about bad meat at a resturant.

2. You have the camp that will play vanguard even if they are on fire, regardless of who is hosting the service and printing the CDs. This camp tends to think everyone else is an idiot for thinking anything differently then their holyier then now viewpoint.

3. You have the camp that may play vanguard and will base the game on the merits of its success (in and of itself) because they dont' know or dont care about the politics of a game - just that its good.

Then you have the outsider who weighs in and makes deductions based on facts.

My prediction is Vanguard will be the elitest game that could have been. Its EQ 2.5 with a slightly modifed engine.  Camp #1 will have far far far greater impact on the game then anyone could imagine and will cause a signifcant number of hardcore veternan gamers into permanent retirement.

Camp #2 will continue to flame people and say :if you don't like it then leave: - just like they did with EQ2 - and they will.

Camp #3 will be where vanguard will be forced to build its community all the eggs are in that basket ('cept for everyone who moves from EQ1 and EQ2) -- which I'm betting is what SOE and Sigil are thinking. They didnt just summairly make this decision, I think they consciously decided to write off a portion of their community with their decision. All elements of damage control are based on trying to reduce the number of people that will leave......but I think they've underestimated the impact affiliating with SOE will have.

Brad is an idealist and I think that's great. But Sigil has made a decision to affiliate themselves with an organization that has time and time again snuffed its customers and obviously made decisions with themselves in mind and not their clients. ....rule #1 is you satifsy your business needs by taking care of the client ...SOE has got that %100 backwards and Sigil is now tied to that regardless of how many FAQs they put out there.

If Sigil is successful then SOE gets a boost and maybe in a decade ppl will stop flaming them.

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Originally posted by Rekindle

We wouldnt be having this conversation if SOE where not SOE - remember that.  The marriage of Sigil and SOE has polarized the community and caused divisions where no divisions existed before.

1. You have the camp who takes the consumerism stance that SOE has a bad rep so they speak with their dollar and never play anything anywhere near affiliated with SOE ever ever again. -- Think about bad meat at a resturant.

2. You have the camp that will play vanguard even if they are on fire, regardless of who is hosting the service and printing the CDs. This camp tends to think everyone else is an idiot for thinking anything differently then their holyier then now viewpoint.

3. You have the camp that may play vanguard and will base the game on the merits of its success (in and of itself) because they dont' know or dont care about the politics of a game - just that its good.

Then you have the outsider who weighs in and makes deductions based on facts.

My prediction is Vanguard will be the elitest game that could have been. Its EQ 2.5 with a slightly modifed engine.  Camp #1 will have far far far greater impact on the game then anyone could imagine and will cause a signifcant number of hardcore veternan gamers into permanent retirement.

Camp #2 will continue to flame people and say :if you don't like it then leave: - just like they did with EQ2 - and they will.

Camp #3 will be where vanguard will be forced to build its community all the eggs are in that basket ('cept for everyone who moves from EQ1 and EQ2) -- which I'm betting is what SOE and Sigil are thinking. They didnt just summairly make this decision, I think they consciously decided to write off a portion of their community with their decision. All elements of damage control are based on trying to reduce the number of people that will leave......but I think they've underestimated the impact affiliating with SOE will have.

Brad is an idealist and I think that's great. But Sigil has made a decision to affiliate themselves with an organization that has time and time again snuffed its customers and obviously made decisions with themselves in mind and not their clients. ....rule #1 is you satifsy your business needs by taking care of the client ...SOE has got that %100 backwards and Sigil is now tied to that regardless of how many FAQs they put out there.

If Sigil is successful then SOE gets a boost and maybe in a decade ppl will stop flaming them.

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I think everyone is misinterpretting how much of an effect the Anti-SOE people have. And I mean, really....everyone forgets the people who love SOE games and found out about and plan on playing Vanguard because of SOE's involvement. Satisfaction with products often goes un-voiced.

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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Originally posted by Vengeful

I think everyone is misinterpretting how much of an effect the Anti-SOE people have. And I mean, really....everyone forgets the people who love SOE games and found out about and plan on playing Vanguard because of SOE's involvement. Satisfaction with products often goes un-voiced.

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I enjoyed SWG when it first came out for about 2 months.  The quests were horrid, and the while the harvesting and crafting system was AWESOME, the final result of crafting was not.   Right when I thought about giving SWG a second try I started to hear how screwed up the game was.

I was REALLY pissed when EQ2 was first released.  What the hell was that?  Only able to sell if your on-line?  Since then the game has improved incredibly.

So I'm only a little angry at SOE.  SWG wasn't all that great to begin with so I cancelled, and EQ2 is a pretty good game. 

I can't wait to see all the crying/trolling etc. that's going to hit the fan when Vanguard comes out.  I'm not going to touch that game untill it's been out for 6-8 months (but that probably goes for any game).  I can GUARANTEE that the game will be released in the same fashion and quality as EQ2 was.  Do you think your going to have all the 3rd generation functionality promised to be in the game at launch?  Waiting even a month to realease a game for a few in game issues costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.  This one's being released with problems, just in time to ruin your Christmas

I'll let all you fanbois beta test the retail version of game for me. 

All that said, I am still looking foward to playing Vanguard. 

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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If anything, I can understand a problem with AoC, though...IIRC, Microsoft IS involved in the development of that game, not just publishing it.

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Originally posted by Radiotree

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Originally posted by Vengeful

I think everyone is misinterpretting how much of an effect the Anti-SOE people have. And I mean, really....everyone forgets the people who love SOE games and found out about and plan on playing Vanguard because of SOE's involvement. Satisfaction with products often goes un-voiced.

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Please tell me you're kidding?

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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If anything, I can understand a problem with AoC, though...IIRC, Microsoft IS involved in the development of that game, not just publishing it.

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I am talking about the new game coming out, they are only publish by those company and people are still saying they will not play because they will screw the game again. You can not screw something if you do not do it.

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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If anything, I can understand a problem with AoC, though...IIRC, Microsoft IS involved in the development of that game, not just publishing it.

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I am talking about the new game coming out, they are only publish by those company and people are still saying they will not play because they will screw the game again. You can not screw something if you do not do it.

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Can I get a translation?

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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If anything, I can understand a problem with AoC, though...IIRC, Microsoft IS involved in the development of that game, not just publishing it.

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I am talking about the new game coming out, they are only publish by those company and people are still saying they will not play because they will screw the game again. You can not screw something if you do not do it.

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Can I get a translation?

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Of course you can have a translation:
Je parle a propos des nouveaux jeu qui vont sortir, ils vont seulement etre publié par ces compagnies et tous le mondes continu de dire qu'ils ne vont pas jouer parce que ils vont ruiner le jeu encore. Tu ne peux pas ruiner quleque chose si tu ne le crée pas.

I hope it will help you.

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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If anything, I can understand a problem with AoC, though...IIRC, Microsoft IS involved in the development of that game, not just publishing it.

---

I am talking about the new game coming out, they are only publish by those company and people are still saying they will not play because they will screw the game again. You can not screw something if you do not do it.

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Can I get a translation?

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Of course you can have a translation:
Je parle a propos des nouveaux jeu qui vont sortir, ils vont seulement etre publié par ces compagnies et tous le mondes continu de dire qu'ils ne vont pas jouer parce que ils vont ruiner le jeu encore. Tu ne peux pas ruiner quleque chose si tu ne le crée pas.

I hope it will help you.

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Two things:

1) I think I understood that moreso than I did the origional post =/
You forgot 2) Dern French Canadians =)

<3

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047

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Originally posted by Vengeful

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Originally posted by ghost047
I am looking forward to play Vanguard. I am from the pre-cu SWG, I do not hate SOE, I hate the part of SOE who make SWG crap. They have many games some are crap some are good, depands on people.

Now for the publishing, I see people saying they will not play because of SOE publish the game or if Microsoft publish a game. So according to you guys I should cross of my list the 2 games I am expecting the most Q4 because of their publisher, Age of Conan = MS, Vanguard = SOE. Come on guys they will only publish the game not make it or change it.

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If anything, I can understand a problem with AoC, though...IIRC, Microsoft IS involved in the development of that game, not just publishing it.

---

I am talking about the new game coming out, they are only publish by those company and people are still saying they will not play because they will screw the game again. You can not screw something if you do not do it.

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Can I get a translation?

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Of course you can have a translation:
Je parle a propos des nouveaux jeu qui vont sortir, ils vont seulement etre publié par ces compagnies et tous le mondes continu de dire qu'ils ne vont pas jouer parce que ils vont ruiner le jeu encore. Tu ne peux pas ruiner quleque chose si tu ne le crée pas.

I hope it will help you.

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Two things:

1) I think I understood that moreso than I did the origional post =/
You forgot 2) Dern French Canadians =)

<3

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Originally posted by Shayde

Exactly. Brad PROBABLY leveraged the buyout with whatever $OE paid them. Money doesn't just magically appear, especially totals like that.

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