Tabula Rasa

We all need to boycott pay to play games. The companies can run these games without charging monthly fee. Greed is why companies charge monthly fees.

I disagree in the respect that it depends on the company involved, and the average size of the expansion.  All of us expect that bugs and tweaks are considered part of the package.  That stuff needs to be fixed or it will either be 1) exploited, or 2) dropped.

But a company has to have some kind of incentive to put the time into coding whole new content instead of directing those resources into all new games.  I don't know of any company out there that does this just to lose money.  No harm no foul.  It's just business.

So we pay a monthly fee to cover maintenance on the servers we all play on, salaries for the programmers that install all new content, monsters (w/ new A.I. scripts), weapons and equipment, events, ect.

Now if I were paying a subscription on a game that the developer never improved and it got stagnant?  I'd kiss that account goodbye in a heartbeat.

Sure there are developers out there that run no-pay niche mmo's out of the kindness of their own heart, but most likely they do it for the love of what they do, and I'm pretty sure they aren't making running a business with it.

All in all, I think that a reasonable subscription fee is a fair trade for a continually expanding, dynamic environment to play in.

Next time you go see a movie in a theatre, ask them if they'll let you in for free or you'll boycott Hollywood, then enjoy your walk home. 

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Originally posted by copperfwtx
But a company has to have some kind of incentive to put the time into coding whole new content instead of directing those resources into all new games. I don't know of any company out there that does this just to lose money. No harm no foul. It's just business.

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They would charge for expansions. Any fixing of broken things would be part of the money brought in for that content.

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Originally posted by copperfwtx
So we pay a monthly fee to cover maintenance on the servers we all play on, salaries for the programmers that install all new content, monsters (w/ new A.I. scripts), weapons and equipment, events, ect.

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Again I've determined from looking at a number of the big time poplular MMOs that financially they still turn a profit if you remove the income from the monthly fees collected. Thus charging $30-50 per content package (chapter, expansion or whatever you want to call them) is all that is needed to cover expenses and still turn a profit.

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Originally posted by copperfwtx
Now if I were paying a subscription on a game that the developer never improved and it got stagnant? I'd kiss that account goodbye in a heartbeat.

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This is true of any game if nothing new is added or broken content not repair people soon start to give up the more % of their income the purchase the quiker they will go.

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Originally posted by copperfwtx
Sure there are developers out there that run no-pay niche mmo's out of the kindness of their own heart, but most likely they do it for the love of what they do, and I'm pretty sure they aren't making running a business with it.

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They know that having a monthly fee is just greedy so its not really kindness of their own heart its that they have some sense of moral value it not ripping of the consumers in the name of profits. There could be some totally free to play games that are barely paying for the game but if they weren't profiting they'd soon start charging a one time purchase of the chapter or expansion if they do expansions.

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Originally posted by copperfwtx
All in all, I think that a reasonable subscription fee is a fair trade for a continually expanding, dynamic environment to play in.
Next time you go see a movie in a theatre, ask them if they'll let you in for free or you'll boycott Hollywood, then enjoy your walk home.

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If all you were paying was the monthly fee this would make sense buy you are paying $30-50 per chapter and expansions on top of it. Of course it would also make sense if suddenly no more copies were sold ever again. Because at that point if they couldn't cover operating expenses then they'd stop the game. Your movie example is not a valid comparison I see this used often as an argument for paying a monthly fee. However I'm not asking for a game to be completely free. What I'm saying is that the monthly fees are because of greed and no need.

The movie example would be valid if it were that you buy the ticket which grants me to watch the film but for every 15 minutes I sit in the theater I must pay an additional but smaller fee to continue watching the film. People would stop going to the movies if that happened.

Well I agree that if you are paying a monthly fee AND for expansions, that's a bit much.  However Other NCSoft releases such as L2 don't charge for expansions.  You're already paying your monthly fee to maintain content and access.  Chronicle expansions are part of the package, no additional cost required.

So is that considered greedy or a fair rate?

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Originally posted by copperfwtx
Well I agree that if you are paying a monthly fee AND for expansions, that's a bit much. However Other NCSoft releases such as L2 don't charge for expansions. You're already paying your monthly fee to maintain content and access. Chronicle expansions are part of the package, no additional cost required.
So is that considered greedy or a fair rate?

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I was unaware that the other games under ncsoft were continually adding expansions and new content without chaging more than the monthly fee. So is that all there is then a monthly fee for the games under ncsoft? In that case this in not greedy if they are making new expansions and chapters at least once a year. I was under the impression it was like all other MMOs and it cost you like $30-50 but mostly close to $50 and then pay $13-15 a month and then pay $30-50 for an expansion at least once a year.

If you think about it the monthly fee would be as if you were paying $150-180 for a game title at the store. I understand however that it costs money to operate the game so I don't expect a game to run on no continued income. But even at $13-15 a month may very well be over the top. The pricing of the monthly fee ncsoft titles with the knowledge you provided that you don't pay for expansions brings it more reasonable. As long as they continue to provide new chapters and expansions content at no cost then they aren't being greedy but may be able to lower the montly fee a bit to say $9 a month. Should still turn millions in profits.

But when you take WoW as an example you pay $50 for the game box and then at best $13 a month after. As of sept 2005 they had 4.5 million subscribers. Thats $702 million a year at $13 a month. I'm not even going to count the profits made off the box sales. But lets assume that not all these people subscribed every month or stopped and take an average of 1 million users a month. Thats $156 million in one year. There is no way its costs that much to run the game. Al of NCsofts expenses totals $340 million and this includes all 6 of their currently running MMOs and the expenses for upcoming titles that are currently not bringing in revenue. There is no way it cost half of that to run just one MMO. Thus those games like WoW that charge a monthly fee and also charge you for the game and chapters/expansions afterwards are doing so out of greed and not need.

just as a general rule... and you can look it up if you want...


they dont turn a profit on box sales... the price on the box goes to game development, distribution, and promotions....

in essense, without monthly fees, MOST mmos would be distributed "at cost", meaning there would be no direct profit to the companies developing and publishing the game.... merely covering the cost of making it.

there are a few exceptions, but that is true for most companies. the monthly fees are, for the most part there to pay for two things... server/game matainence, and game/quality of life improvements... keeping the current game healthy and viable in the market, and adding content to maintain fan base.

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Originally posted by Ghost-Hack
just as a general rule... and you can look it up if you want...they dont turn a profit on box sales... the price on the box goes to game development, distribution, and promotions....in essense, without monthly fees, MOST mmos would be distributed "at cost", meaning there would be no direct profit to the companies developing and publishing the game.... merely covering the cost of making it.
there are a few exceptions, but that is true for most companies. the monthly fees are, for the most part there to pay for two things... server/game matainence, and game/quality of life improvements... keeping the current game healthy and viable in the market, and adding content to maintain fan base.

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I'm sorry but when your looking at a companies revenue it is included in that. However for the sake of my argument I was ignoring the revenue from box sales. If a company didn't profit from box sales then all games before MMOs came out were out of the kindness of the companies hearts and they all lost money giving us games like Farcry, SW:KoToR, Warcraft I, II, Starcraft, The Sims 1 & 2, etc. All those games its just the box sale so yes there is profit in the box sale. Total revenue less expenses = profit. Development, distrobution, and promtion all fall in expenses. When I refered to the cost of running the game I'm talking everything including the development costs, ditrobution and promotion along with equipment, bandwidth, etc since in financial statements all of this stuff is in the expenses. Heck even the building and electric bill, water bill, gas bill, and such are all in the companies bottom line total expenses. Which further strengthens my proof that games like WoW especially WoW need no monthly fee. I've even entertained the idea of what if they did then it does not need to be 1/2 of what they charge.

Here is an example. If 1 million people subscibe to a game for 12 months each year no more and no less over the course of each year there would be $60 million in revenue from just the monthly fee. Now lets look at Guild Wars for an example of revenue earned from box sales. $54 million in revenue from just Guild Wars over 1.2 million sold. If I assume that expenses of the game are an exact 1/6th of their expenses thats just enough to cover costs. However in reality we know that this is not accurate. Lets look at their biggest two games Lineage I & II, $220 million in revenue about half of total revenue. So lets assume that half their expenses is the total for both L I & II. Thats $165 million for both $82.5 million each.

Now Based on statistics released by them Lineage has a monthly access count of 2 million users. So lets now bump my hypothetical 1 million average to 2 million for WoW and assume no more or no less that that for a full year. We already know based on info from sept. 2005 that WoW had 4.5 million subscribers. 2 million at $13 per month would be $312 million. Even if we assume it costs twice as much to run WoW with 2 milllion subscribers each month compared to Lineage we are talking $147 million in profit. Not counting the revenue from the box sales. If those 2 million payed $5 per month and we go with the more acurate operating cost of $82 million there is a ~$40 million profit.

You can't look at these numbers and tell me that paying $13 or more a month isn't greed. And can also see that its possible that the monthly fee for ncsoft titles could even be lowered to ~$8-9 a month and still turn a profit in the millions.

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Originally posted by FonzyBear
We all need to boycott pay to play games. The companies can run these games without charging monthly fee. Greed is why companies charge monthly fees.

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Why bother publishing a game then?

But in fairness I do think the $15 a month average is getting to high. Ya, I know it is ~$0.50 a day, but even considering that there are few games people are getting what they pay for. For now I am thinking ~$10 a month is more appropiate.

Why? First of all, a lower cost would attract more players and shouldn't be a massive revenue hit over all...well unless the game isn't doing well anyway. Second, there are free to play online (box sale games) that have added more content than some MMOs within a year after release (but the one time buy cost a $50 average, but the MMO cost ~$230 for the same year o.o). Third, it NEEDS to drop in average price to save the MMO genre. What? Well, as long as any company can release broken game and still take in $15 a month per player for a while (and almost all MMOs last atleast 6 months with a decent player base it seems) as long as they plan their budget around 6 months of success crappy games will just keep coming out one after another. As we can see now crap games that have a little success spawn more crap games. As far as I am concerned a successful game could make income off mini exapnsions (as much as I hate to say it but....) like EQ2 has or such, every 2-3 months $5 a player. It is the ideal income model, short term development to make players happy and success funds more short term development between major expansions.