I now have a huge crush on Steph, any girl with that sense of humor wins my heart...plus she games. Ahh...I'm a fool. But I agree, I play RPG 'cus I love to roleplay. I get an awsome PvP charecter, pretend I'm a unforgiving warlord of ultimate destruction, own lots of people, make name or myself, and create a gang to raid with. I still think, Asheron's Call had the best PvP server system, and Pre-Bad Starwars had the best RP.

Oh...and PLEASE not too much instancing...I feel yoy lose the reality of a game, Once again, AC was amazing, PvP servers, you go itno town and anti-pvp guilds ran it, you go PvP, you get hunted down, so you go into teh forests, deserts, find amazing dungeons and quests you never knew existed. It really creates a world, instead of a buncha boxes, all with differant little things, knowing no matter what if you head in one direction long enough, you'll get out.

Diviana,

You have to understand from the stand point of customers (this will always include new potential customers like me and old one's)

Now this Dev journal Starts off with talking about RPG in MMO but more then 80% of her reference is all about combat and bunnies...

I do Understand the certain metaphors she tries to relay, but her description of RPG was heavily centered on time and combat  examples. 

In your short response you told me more about the RPG format being used in HJ then in the whole Dev Journal written here. That is why i replied as so.

The larger a customer base becomes the more specifically you have to target them. The post took on a kind of tone that implies we read some of her previous post which will not be so in all the cases.

I challenged the Journal to have it clarified. I so happen to know one of the GM's from gemstone and he already got me excited about the game.

I think the biggest point of contention that I'm seeing is the ever-present difference between Role Playing (RP) and Role Playing Games (RPGs). Intrinsicly, it's almost impossible for any game to allow for real Role Playing, without interaction from other players/humans. (computer) RPGs are simply the best immitation of what Role Playing is, in an electronic format. An RPG is completely incapable of handling the unlimited choices and paths that a player can come up with. They do their best to emulate Role Playing though. I mean, when you've played tabletop D&D (or any other tabletop RPG), and you hear the entire gaming industry call Diablo an RPG, you have to scoff...at least a little.

What Stephanie was trying to address, was how Hero's Journey, as an RPG, tries to tackle some of the aspects of character advancement from a gaming system point of view. Things that can be quantified in 1's and 0's on the server. That would include your quest paths, you standing with all the different groups and factions, who your nemisis is, etc. You're not simply pigeon-holed into "Player: Human Ranger Level: 15 Assign Quest X2-492" type of thing. I saw, from the article, that there were a variety of different play style, all equally supported, so that if you wanted to solo, you could without being penalized.

Now, what I don't think was mentioned in great depth in the article, was the Role Play aspect. RP and Computer RPGs are two totally seperate things (IMHO. I still think Diablo-esque type games being called RPGs is silly)...the MMO's that I've seen offer you a very limited scope of options that your character can take over its lifetime. I mean, there are a set number of quests, that you usually take in order, depending on your level. In most MMO's today, you are primarily defined by your level, and then by your loot. The server can do the best it can to use the game system to give the player's character its own sense of advancement (whatever that may be). That still does not rule out the ability for non-server specific advancement in real Role Play with other players. Sometimes, the rewards from those activities can be better than gaining a level, getting a new item, attaining a new rank, or what have you.

Hmm....now where was I going with this? Ah yes...the Dev Journal. I think the examples used to outline the point of the dev journal were heard louder than the actual message. The major points were that players were being allowed the freedom to party up or solo, without penalties; that players could log in for as little as 10 minutes and still accomplish things in the game; that players would be rewarded with the investment of time growing their characters, as opposed to simply being awarded for their level of "twitchiness". And of course, there's always the opportunity for some encouraged RP.

I hope I didnt ramble on too much.

Off to find my source of caffeine now.

I find to role-play well I need some help in the form of background information on world, religions, politics etc so that I can develop my motivation for my character.

So aside from class, levels and power - they give me a goal to advance, but I personally need more.

If I am playing a priest for instance its more than having the name of the diety I worship.
- What are that deities areas of influence?
- Who are their enemies?
- how do they fit into the political structure of the nation / region I am in?
- do they provide charity to the poor?
- do they have internal power struggles?
- can I advance in the church heirarchy?
- can I convert unbelievers to our faith?
- are their certain things I am forbidden to do - marriage, eat certain foods, wear certain color clothing
- Are their restrictions on skills and spells I can learn.

Best system I saw for this was the old Pen and Paper role-playing game Runequest. Where being a member of a religion provided benefits and restrictions in skills and spells, you could be a lay member, initiate, or priest. The various religions had allied and enemy dieties, and even races the did or didnt like.

So as for a dream character I have always wanted to play a Shaolin - warrior monk. So does your system support martial arts, unarmed combat etc.

---

Originally posted by marct

My difficulty with this and the last Dev. Journal is that Stephanie appears to be talking for Stephanie.  She is relating her personal experience and personal preferences. 

That is all great, but if this is her opinion, that does not mean that it is how the game wil be going.  If it is how Simutronics feels about Hero's Journey, then maybe Stephanie should change her writing style to indicate that this is how "we are developing Hero's Journey at Simutronics" instead of how "I (Stephanie) feels about this topic. 

Is this a Dev. Journal or an editorial?  What are you working on Stephanie?  Tell us about the things you have been challenged with in the last two weeks.  Tell us about the GM development process, tell us about the difficult things that are being discussed but not finalized(tm).

I am wishing for more when I read these Dev. Journals.  The game is probably 6-12 months from production and everything is very very vague still?  Is there anything more substantial? 

marc.

---

I met Stephanie when we were roleplayers together, many years ago before we were hired as gamemasters.  She is one of the most dynamic roleplayers I've met, not to mention one of the best code writers that Simutronics has had.

I view this journal as a chance for readers to get to know the folks who work behind the scenes, as each of us has ideas that go into delivering a great game.  The obvious advantage of this is learning how the developer's game experiences help shape the principles of game play, something you don't usually get to glimpse unless you're in the staff meeting.

The bells and whistles themselves are in a constant state of evolution, so talking about them at this juncture may be pointless -- a better idea will change those devilish details and touch upon other bells and whistles that will also mutate...right into beta.  Besides...why should we deliver our secrets to our competition?

As for whether Stephanie writes for herself or Simutronics...if her viewpoints ran contrary to the company's she wouldn't be writing them in the first place.

Eh... EH! Freakin' eh.

Okay I saw the topic, clicked it to read it like I have so many other HJ topics around MMORPG.com and other sites. Hoping to see and hear more about all the plus' HJ has presented to me, as a MMO player. I didn't see that in this Dev Journal. Actually, some of the language in Ms. Shaver's entry really has that downward spiral tone to it so many MMOs before now have offered about at this point.

I'll discuss.

PUTS THE RPG BACK INTO THE MMO GENRE! WOOOHHOOO!! Speaks right to me, in fact I was almost coerced like a few of the other posters and just thank Ms. Shaver for placing that comment out there in bold font size=5 yellow text. I decided to read since I got some free time.

Then horror strikes with this comment, and I quote; "Y'see, I believe in the RPG in MMORPG. MMORPGs are not primarily twitch games. They are less about how fast you can aim and fire, and more about advancing a set of tools that you strategically employ. Sure, timing is involved -- when you aggro a creature, when you use a certain spell effect, monitoring your health and so on -- but it's not the same as an FPS or a fighting game like, say, Street Fighter or Dead or Alive 4: Whoa, Those Bosoms Sure Do Bounce a Lot.

Ummm, what the hell?

Did she actually say anything in that article? I don't mean to sound quite so nasty, but here's what I remember after reading it:

1) The ability to solo play is... good?

2) Levels and experience are an important part of MMORPGs

3) Some separation between MMO and RPG that wasn't very cleary defined...

4) Jabbering about cookies...?

Maybe I just didn't get the point of the article but while it was entertaining to read, I came away not really knowing anything more about development, MMOs, or Hero's Journey.

All I have is this vague feeling that the author's priorities in MMORPGs (whatever they are) are quite different from my own. Anyone else get this feeling?

---

Originally posted by Haladar
1) The ability to solo play is... good?
2) Levels and experience are an important part of MMORPGs
3) Some separation between MMO and RPG that wasn't very cleary defined...
4) Jabbering about cookies...?

---

Okay let me start off with, numba 1.

Yes the ability to play solo is very good. I personally don't really like grouping. I like being able to do things by myself.. And if I want to hang out with some people while I level, I can do that too. The thing is, some people don't have the time to look for a group.. or some people, like me, just prefer doing it themselves. I have nothing against talking to people and hanging out with friends, but I like to hunt by myself, and my down time between hunting is the time I take to do that.

now 2.

Yes, levels and exp are important parts of mmorpg, because there should be a sense of gain.. of accomplishment.. But they aren't the only parts that are fun. Maybe the fact that Elanthia will constantly be evolving, the quests always being something new.. or perhaps our customization is what will make us truly a hit.. But I think it will be a combination of EVERYTHING we're doing with the game.

3. .. Well I'm not quite sure what to say about this. I can say I kinda thought it should have been titled something else.. Maybe putting the game back into rpg or something.. Not rpg into mmo..

and 4.

Who can live without cookies? Cookies are a damn important part of everyday life. Anyway, you shouldn't take things quite so seriously, this isn't an interview, it's some personal thoughts of a particularly creative GM. I feel like these are more so you can get to know at least one of the GMs working on HJ.. The rest of us, well we're either in hiding, or sneaking around the forums.

Most MMO's allow for a great deal of RP in their G but it's the player who makes the decision on whether or not to seize the opportunities.  Certain games (HJ being of this genre) launch with the intent to populate servers with roleplayers, whereas other games launch with other intents -- twitch games are in a genre that generally doesn't consider RP content as a Top Three reason to play. 

World of Warcraft has a couple-three RP servers on which I find very little roleplay in the classic sense.  I've found ninja looters who believe that culling your loot before you do is their way of roleplaying a thief.  We are all familiar with Barrens chat, which speaks volumes about the nature of players of MMOs in this day and age in that game: they are young, experts at console titles, incredibly intelligent about games, leveling systems, and in-game rewards.  Can they roleplay?  Mostly no.  Are they encouraged to try?  Not often enough.  Why?  There is no reward (personally or mechanically) for roleplaying.

Lest you think this is an exclusive-to-WoW proclivity, this generalization can be applied to most servers in Everquest II as well.  A good chunk of the population is more concerned with getting through new tasks than kicking back and fellowshiping in the pursuit of good roleplay. 

Game designers can pour thousands of personal work-hours into crafting a perfect roleplaying environment (like, believe it or not, Star Wars: Galaxies or Lineage II) and end up with servers populated by game players instead of roleplayers.  There is a huge difference between these types of customers.  Yes, you can craft a twitch game that is heavy with roleplay but in all likelihood, if the audience that plays twitch games isn't used to roleplaying, they aren't going to recognize the environmental reasons to do it.  HJ plans to offer them tangible, recognizable opportunities, but it is still up to the player to seek them out.  If a player or group of players is more accustomed to level chasing, they're going to bypass the RP content entirely.

What HJ intends to do is marry the need to level with the compulsion to roleplay.  We are creating situations in everyday tasks that reward players who look closely at their environment for concrete starts to roleplaying.  To bypass them wouldn't hurt anyone, but to engage them is to make the overall experience richer not just for the immediate player or group but for their peers who were off on their own adventures in another part of town.  It is a game in which players create their own lore, and that lore will be supported by the gamemasters.  Yes, you read that right, gamemasters will support the gameplay -- a shocking idea in the current world of MMOs but nothing new to us.  We've been doing it for years.

Question tho'.

So like, you guys are going to free roll stat points each level? Skill points each level? Standard you reach a certain level as a warrior / thief; you get this skill modified by this stat? Or as in pen and paper games or say even the Elder Scroll series shall the player define their role by crafting a 'useable' skill set on their own? That always helped me get into character.

Also are you going to dumb down the combo system and the spell 'draw to execute' line just because there's going to be a lot of gamers / rpgers out there who just can't hack the pressure of doing something correctly?

Game play and role play can coincide. To see in text the people who preached it earlier saying it just won't happen is rather disheartening.

As for the Barren's chat, MMOs have their ooc-yahoo-irc-likeness for those us on the RPPVP servers turning off general seems to remedy that problem.

RPers will RP.

A suggestion that I won't bother my guild master with posting on the HJ innerloop forums since indeed you folks are here.

Have a few servers set aside for online prank kiddies and RP kill joys, they get reported enough times let them go 1337 there.

Seriously tho'. I like the surprise factor in MMOs. If you guys do mob placement and no surprise game play that dev journal #3 basically screamed in such a manner the oddity and exploration factor is destroyed while gaming then you'll just have an EQ 2 or WoW clone where everyone will just be bland chatting about their class combo and how l33t they've leveled up their gear. Which is a feature that may have been wrongly explained to me.

You can cut that out, keep innovative twitchy/strategic game play, and toss in some in game rp opps for the players and still make a great game.

The tone lately, with this topic and the reply. Just raises more questions.

"twitch games are in a genre that generally doesn't consider RP content as a Top Three reason to play."

Oblivion will probably sell a million copies within a couple of weeks. We'll probably get the whole use the mouse and move a bit to twitch your combat system they've always had. It'll force people to RP and pay attention to the back story, the surrounding, and the quests to advance. Sure the player never gets to interact with (DrrzztDrowface) and ruin the emerged but yeah, twitch gaming can make even non-RPers RP. They won't even realize they're doing it.
I think they can.

Sure if you guys want to pick on Doom online gamers and say they ruin most MMOs cuz they just like to banter. There's fixes. Toss that up in a DEV journal. Tell folks..

"If you're a hardcore gamer who hates instance content and intend to just /shout over and over ROLLPLAYERS R GEHY on our RP servers, we'll move your sorry asses to the HARDCORE server where you can all banter and banter and ignore our lore all the live long day." Then that'd tell me you're bringing the RPG back to the MMORPG.

I enjoyed EQ1s off the wall things such as the tree glitch. Seeing the Eye of Zom for the first time. Being grav fluxed as a rogue over a chasm of death, because my safe fall would let me live, and searching around at a place a lot of other players never made it too. All the role playing my pals and I did in Ultima, even while PvPing a raze across a lower leveled town, it happened it can happen.

It all can happen. I just really hate seeing the reverse language in your guy's posts. A lot of dumbing down on the system I previously downloaded the videos to see seems to be taking place just cuz.. You guys think*(edit) RPers can't handle gaming?

So if gamers can't RP, RPers can't game? Is that the policy I'm seeing here? Is fun to play like EQ 2s we're basically going to give you the same rogue swashbuckler with the illusion of choice? No, please? Just no.

I don't believe any of us has identified any class of player as being less than worthy of consideration in the design of Hero's Journey or that one style of play cannot coincide with another style of play.

HJ intends to encourage roleplay as a complement to game play.  Roleplay is a hallmark of Simu games so it's a top priority.  But we'd be remiss if we didn't recognize that current MMO players have vastly different expectations, or that the term "roleplay" is not the same now as it was ten years ago.

In fact, you know what would be interesting, is if you responded with your definitions of roleplay.  I would be interested in what's similar or not so similar in the replies.

Well, from a non-GM, I would have to say you are wrong on a couple of points, and right on a few others.  You are wrong in saying they are not successful.  Simutronics is a successful company, they make money, etc.  So they actually have money and can get funding to build a game such as Hero's Journey. 

I think you may be right a little bit in that Simutronics does not have the success of WOW, of course not many do.  They get about 6000-7000 players to log on a day.  That is not niche, and not mainstream by any stretch of the imagination. 

On the 'Can Simutronics make a game that will be a success?', probably, are they as in-tune with the folks that play the graphical type games as they need to be, probably not.  I have not seen them give outward representation of this. 

Yes, it does get a little trying hearing the same group of people say you will love it, this is how it was done elsewhere, etc.  I would have liked to think that this was much further along than they let on with their initial timeline and all.  I believe E3 in May will paint a very very clear picture of where HJ is currently in the timeline of development, and possibly we will even get a scheduled Beta timeframe. 

I think if you talked intelligently about your issues, you could get someone to actually address them.

marc.