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Programming  » Game Engine MOD? Design? Purchase?

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21 posts found
  TrioxinCreator

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/14
Posts: 9

 
OP  8/31/14 6:29:08 AM#1

Hello names Jason,

First off, I apologize for miss spelling and bad grammar, been up all night working on this and school bare with me please. this is a long post but it will make since at the end. thank you. 

A friend and I have been working on a MMO concept for a little over 9 years now, we both are familiar with MMO video games hes a programmer I am hardware yet we both know a little about the other enough so we can understand each other and collaborate on what we need. I am going to be kind'a vague as to what the game is about. 

A little back ground on me: I am 35 years old, have a AA in game simulation and programming ( easy course little programming more CMS) and am currently working on a BS degree for Game Development with a business core, my minor hasn't been chosen yet untill I finish my pre Req's for the business core, and development classes then based off the forum discussions. then I shall pick my minor in networking, business ( more entrepreneurship classes N finance) or programming. I have a partial BS in computer engineering from DEVRY, I will go back an finish that after my current BS is complete. 

 

on to my post: 

I am wondering if for our project we can get away with purchasing a Game engine like frostbite, Unreal, CryEngine ETC, to modify a game engine severely, or to create a game engine ( yea not our cup of tea will be out sourced) 

if you could please read the info I've included to get a gist of some abnormal features that we are trying to incorporate unto the game, and please tell me which you think should be done and why, encase of purchasing and or Modifying a engine, please give reference to the engines you think will suit our needs. 

we are not professionals by any means, I am putting my love of tech aside in order to get more of a education in order to get closer to our vision of a game, so please be blunt, pop holes, ask questions. I just ask to forgive my spelling and grammar.

The basic concept of our MMO is to bring the freedom and creativity of old school PEN & PAPER RPG ( D&D, Palladium, vampire of the masquerade, MechWarrior ETC.) to PC. (maybe even console systems) and if any one has played them you know how much paper can be accumulated by what your Toon has done in its adventures, places your Toon owns, NPC you have working for your Toon, followers, ETC. and how much fun it is. 

Basic features: multiple screen support, Smart Glass support ( tablets, phone, ETC.) we have tossed the idea around of having made a PC controller designed for the game ( able to use on other games with macro creation) Content Management System ( like Neverwinter nights 1&2 tool set more in-depth though) that allows players to create their own holdings, vehicles, equipment ( based on expansions, questing, ETC) 

 

Multiple Monitor support: 

Screen #1 Main view of your Toon, this is where your hot keys, hot bars, and H.U.D. will be displayed along with Toon status, Mini-Map, media player ( like ace online/Cowboy online integration of your own personal music with in game) 

Screen #2 to be used for charter sheet: this is where you will have your stats, skills, abilities, powers, NPC, Holdings, ETC. want to allow the player to utilize both screens and have constant real-time updates on the world*( will discuss later update of world). 

example 1) you just log on and are traveling to your destination to farm items that you need to build your own, or your employers warehouse, house, guildhall, while traveling you can set up your skill set and powers to what terrain environment and purpose that would suit you also updating your Hot-Key on your keyboard, mouse, Game-Pad. checking "known" locations and looking in on your hired NPC, make real time adjustments to their assigned tasks, see battle areas, ( all depending on communication levels and technology you posses. 

example 2) you are in a guild, legion, Merc outfit Battle PK and PVE you just obtained a looted Mech form another player, yet you don't have a skill set set up on your macro or Hotbars, so you can while still fighting start choosing the skills you need In-order to utilize this Mech, call reinforcements, check gear ETC. with out having to pull up sub menus. ( I know sounds Complicated, think of eve's immense skill set and menu system. similar yet in a dual screen/smart glass set up) this would be a menu which could be pulled up like eve if there isn't a dual monitor set up, each section can be sized, stacked and placed based on player preference. 

 

Smart Glass: 

If you prefer to monitor your Toon while offline you can utilize the smart glass app to be able to do things like auctions, quest creations, set up skill sets ( there will be a number of skill sets able to be created per Toon. each player can have a Main Toon, 4 other Sub Toons ( Followers), and NPC ( the player NPC can be created as if it was a player Toon, choosing class skills but only comes with basic equipment for its class, i.e. cloths, and what it needs to do its job. other items are to be built by the player. all NPC start off as level 1) along with use the Content Management System to design building plans, vehicles, armor ETC while offline and not logged in to the game. for al those things you wish you could do and not be logged in a game that's what smart glass is for. 

example #1) you are at a town, you log off computer, and pick up your tab, while surfing the net you have a idea for a a building based on something you saw on your FB feed, so you open up you app and start to design the building as you lay back watching some TV, listening to music ETC. once your finished you select submit and it awaits review to see if your Toon has the resources you need in order to create your desired building. 

Example #2) you get a text form one of your fellow gamers asking you if you have any XXX, you tell them to hold on. vs going to your computer to log on just to see, you grab your smart glass and check your accessible inventory ( i.e. inventory you could get to in the area you are in game) it so happens you logged off in the middle of B.F.E.. but you checked your known inventory in other places you have setup. and you can make said items and send them to your friend but your NPC has to do that. well if you have communication to your NPC you can have that NPC make/send item xxx. all with out having to log on to your PC. 

 

Content Management System:

The content management system, is similar to others you have seen, unlike others It is going to be built easy and with different levels of creations, the CMS will be synced to your account, and will only allow you to use the tech, material you have access to, you can create content outside of current funds you have, but when you submit them you wont start until your Toon has acquired the necessary fund, or you will start and only get as far as your funds allow. the content management will allow form basic color of armor, ability to place set a area of map, create, upgrade, modify weapons equipment vehicles. even to as detailed as Neverwinter was allowing you to write your own quest hook line n sinkers, to designing your own adventures ( both upon approval, usually by the next week or monthly patch) I want to take the complexity of Skyrim and cross it with the simplicity of Neverwinter nights tool sets. yet add some Game Maker  Studio (https://www.yoyogames.com/studio) type of detail. 

 

 

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/31/14 9:16:32 AM#2

Your idea seems to be more for a web app to interface with a game than the actual game itself. If that's the sum of your plan, just build a third party app for someone else's game. See which games have enough info in their public API to hook in and do interactive tasks of that nature. 

 

I get the distinct feeling you don't realize the full scope of the task you wish to undertake, nor the skill sets necessary to do it. In light of that...

 

 

Try Unity. Good luck. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3343

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/31/14 7:29:52 PM#3


Originally posted by TrioxinCreator
Hello names Jason,

First off, I apologize for miss spelling and bad grammar, been up all night working on this and school bare with me please. this is a long post but it will make since at the end. thank you. 

A friend and I have been working on a MMO concept for a little over 9 years now, we both are familiar with MMO video games hes a programmer I am hardware yet we both know a little about the other enough so we can understand each other and collaborate on what we need. I am going to be kind'a vague as to what the game is about. 

A little back ground on me: I am 35 years old, have a AA in game simulation and programming ( easy course little programming more CMS) and am currently working on a BS degree for Game Development with a business core, my minor hasn't been chosen yet untill I finish my pre Req's for the business core, and development classes then based off the forum discussions. then I shall pick my minor in networking, business ( more entrepreneurship classes N finance) or programming. I have a partial BS in computer engineering from DEVRY, I will go back an finish that after my current BS is complete. 

 

on to my post: 

I am wondering if for our project we can get away with purchasing a Game engine like frostbite, Unreal, CryEngine ETC, to modify a game engine severely, or to create a game engine ( yea not our cup of tea will be out sourced) 

if you could please read the info I've included to get a gist of some abnormal features that we are trying to incorporate unto the game, and please tell me which you think should be done and why, encase of purchasing and or Modifying a engine, please give reference to the engines you think will suit our needs. 

we are not professionals by any means, I am putting my love of tech aside in order to get more of a education in order to get closer to our vision of a game, so please be blunt, pop holes, ask questions. I just ask to forgive my spelling and grammar.

The basic concept of our MMO is to bring the freedom and creativity of old school PEN & PAPER RPG ( D&D, Palladium, vampire of the masquerade, MechWarrior ETC.) to PC. (maybe even console systems) and if any one has played them you know how much paper can be accumulated by what your Toon has done in its adventures, places your Toon owns, NPC you have working for your Toon, followers, ETC. and how much fun it is. 

Basic features: multiple screen support, Smart Glass support ( tablets, phone, ETC.) we have tossed the idea around of having made a PC controller designed for the game ( able to use on other games with macro creation) Content Management System ( like Neverwinter nights 1&2 tool set more in-depth though) that allows players to create their own holdings, vehicles, equipment ( based on expansions, questing, ETC) 

 

Multiple Monitor support: 

Screen #1 Main view of your Toon, this is where your hot keys, hot bars, and H.U.D. will be displayed along with Toon status, Mini-Map, media player ( like ace online/Cowboy online integration of your own personal music with in game) 

Screen #2 to be used for charter sheet: this is where you will have your stats, skills, abilities, powers, NPC, Holdings, ETC. want to allow the player to utilize both screens and have constant real-time updates on the world*( will discuss later update of world). 

example 1) you just log on and are traveling to your destination to farm items that you need to build your own, or your employers warehouse, house, guildhall, while traveling you can set up your skill set and powers to what terrain environment and purpose that would suit you also updating your Hot-Key on your keyboard, mouse, Game-Pad. checking "known" locations and looking in on your hired NPC, make real time adjustments to their assigned tasks, see battle areas, ( all depending on communication levels and technology you posses. 

example 2) you are in a guild, legion, Merc outfit Battle PK and PVE you just obtained a looted Mech form another player, yet you don't have a skill set set up on your macro or Hotbars, so you can while still fighting start choosing the skills you need In-order to utilize this Mech, call reinforcements, check gear ETC. with out having to pull up sub menus. ( I know sounds Complicated, think of eve's immense skill set and menu system. similar yet in a dual screen/smart glass set up) this would be a menu which could be pulled up like eve if there isn't a dual monitor set up, each section can be sized, stacked and placed based on player preference. 

 

Smart Glass: 

If you prefer to monitor your Toon while offline you can utilize the smart glass app to be able to do things like auctions, quest creations, set up skill sets ( there will be a number of skill sets able to be created per Toon. each player can have a Main Toon, 4 other Sub Toons ( Followers), and NPC ( the player NPC can be created as if it was a player Toon, choosing class skills but only comes with basic equipment for its class, i.e. cloths, and what it needs to do its job. other items are to be built by the player. all NPC start off as level 1) along with use the Content Management System to design building plans, vehicles, armor ETC while offline and not logged in to the game. for al those things you wish you could do and not be logged in a game that's what smart glass is for. 

example #1) you are at a town, you log off computer, and pick up your tab, while surfing the net you have a idea for a a building based on something you saw on your FB feed, so you open up you app and start to design the building as you lay back watching some TV, listening to music ETC. once your finished you select submit and it awaits review to see if your Toon has the resources you need in order to create your desired building. 

Example #2) you get a text form one of your fellow gamers asking you if you have any XXX, you tell them to hold on. vs going to your computer to log on just to see, you grab your smart glass and check your accessible inventory ( i.e. inventory you could get to in the area you are in game) it so happens you logged off in the middle of B.F.E.. but you checked your known inventory in other places you have setup. and you can make said items and send them to your friend but your NPC has to do that. well if you have communication to your NPC you can have that NPC make/send item xxx. all with out having to log on to your PC. 

 

Content Management System:

The content management system, is similar to others you have seen, unlike others It is going to be built easy and with different levels of creations, the CMS will be synced to your account, and will only allow you to use the tech, material you have access to, you can create content outside of current funds you have, but when you submit them you wont start until your Toon has acquired the necessary fund, or you will start and only get as far as your funds allow. the content management will allow form basic color of armor, ability to place set a area of map, create, upgrade, modify weapons equipment vehicles. even to as detailed as Neverwinter was allowing you to write your own quest hook line n sinkers, to designing your own adventures ( both upon approval, usually by the next week or monthly patch) I want to take the complexity of Skyrim and cross it with the simplicity of Neverwinter nights tool sets. yet add some Game Maker  Studio (https://www.yoyogames.com/studio) type of detail. 
 


Get an engine that supports Surround or Eyefinity technologies for your multi-monitor requirements.

You would need to expose an api for tablets(i'm sure you knew that already).

Sounds like your going to have to do some engine work regardless.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13578

9/05/14 9:01:45 PM#4

Do you mean multiple screens as in a desktop with two monitors plugged in, or as in two separate devices such as showing some stuff on a desktop and some on a laptop?  If the latter, it's going to need to be two independent programs that communicate with the same servers.

I don't think Eyefinity or Nvidia Surround is the right thing here.  Those just use driver magic to spread a rectangular game window across multiple monitors.  As far as your graphics API knows, it's just a single rectangular window--and it can't auto-detect where one monitor ends and another begins.  Video drivers take a completed image and figure out which pixels of the image correspond to which pixels of which monitor.

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 779

9/06/14 2:33:57 PM#5

I been in the industry for a long time, this is the mistake most people make, is to make a game like this.. Have you made any simple games before?? Have you released any mobile or small PC games on steam???

 

This is very expensive I know, I have my own company know and to get most of the software we needed, I'm up around over 100k. We are not done.  Making games like this, and with only two people are time consuming.

 

 

I have three released games, one is a MMO on PC. I have worked with 4 AAA company's in the past.  I also have my BA in Game Production. So take it as you will. This is free advice coming from someone very experience programmer and UI artist.  I tried to make a MMO with three people and I never got any sleep and nearly killed me. I ended up in the hospital.  So start super small, built a rep up and some money they make your dream game..

 

If you don't listen to me, then use Unity and enjoy not having any sleep for the next 10 years.

 

Good luck either way.

 

 

Also some one make a framework for a MMO for Unity, I think the name is activism or something like that.   You can use ULink for your networking, or make your own..   They have Photon as well, for smaller scale.

 

Anyways  Unity has a great community, plus the new versions of Unity is growing every day, look at Unity 5, I pre ordered it already.  You can buy many assets, such as NGUI for UI.. Stuff like this you should never do your self. Time vs money.

 

Now a days, no one should make there own engine  unless your a huge company, there are plenty of good ones already out.

 

If you made something like WOW, SWTOR, use Hero, out of the box its ready to go. I also do not care about the Non devs trying to bash it over SWTOR, when a engine is not limited, the developers are limited...

 

I have done some amazing stuff myself, made custom assets/plugins, in Unity... Which I never thought was possible..So you take your pick...

  ICEBLUE

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 50

9/06/14 2:49:29 PM#6

Cracking into the game design and publish world is always hard to begin with. Best to license an engine. 

I too am a game developer, although I have been published in the past both in paper base and digital games its still hard to get it done.

We are currently wrapping up testing of a new RPG board/card game that we are just beginning to port over to PC using the Unity engine.

In fact we are still looking for about 2 more coders and 2 mesh/texture artists to join the team if interested or know anyone hwo may be.

Check us out at www.razoredgegames.com

  Nevulus

Elite Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1283

9/06/14 2:49:58 PM#7

Start small. That's the best advice given. The task ahead for what you want to accomplish is immense to a scale I am sure you are not quite aware of yet.

 

When I say start small I don't mean give up on your dream. For example try creating just the character builder for your game. Then take that program and release it on mobile platforms modified for people to create characters for games like D&D or Pathfinder but with graphical assets for eye candy, cloud-save ability, and interaction with your backend db.

With that small example you already have a few things you can reuse for your main game, as well as start to generate income, interact with mobile devices, and hook into your backend intelligence.

 

This was just an example, not to be taken literally.

 

Edit: And on a sidenote, just as Darkcrystal said, at this time you should not be trying to make your own engine unless that's all you want to do. It is time consuming and only worth it if you want your engine to have a capability currently NOT available in any other engine out there. I've written my own voxel engine a year ago in order to have infinite x,y,z planes for someone else's game. It was not enjoyable towards the end and sucked ALL my time.

  TrioxinCreator

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/14
Posts: 9

 
OP  9/07/14 12:30:49 AM#8

Thanks guys, 

 

I am aware of what I am getitng my self into, 

 

I have made small games, and had a working demo that show cased some of the features of the MMO. I have a AA in game simulations & Programming, I am also working on my BS Game Design & Development-Game Dev & Sup Tech ++

I am building a 10 man concept team right now, and plan on having a small team for developement.. I might have gotten people confused when I said 2 man team, yet the finial yes/no is me and my partner. we are looking into which would be better for our needs. I doubt we could by oour selfs build a game engine, based off the imput we are going to give unity a try to see if it will work. 

 

TWO SCREENS:  ok as far as two screens to bring clarity, 1st screen will play the game as you would any other MMO in full screen ( or windowed ) mode, and if there is only a single screen to play the game on it wont take away from the playablity, yet the second screen when option is enabled will have in a windowed mode/full screen ( havent decided) your sub menue for Toon options, skills stats equipment, holdings, propetry ETC. 

 

Smart Glass: willl be a app that connects and works along side of the MMO, and enhances playability of the MMO. Best way to describe it is similiar to WOW auction/armory apps yet with being able to do a lot more. 

I havent sold games, I havent put any of my creations up in stores. this isnt planned on being done in a year or two, we have a 5 year goal till we enter actual development of the game, and compile all the previous years of work into one MMO. untill then we will be realeasing smaller titles, and even mobile app games/utilities. 

 

I am taking peoples advice, I thank you all for your concern, I understand I dont have a big box title budget to work with, nor the CodeMonkeys to help us create what we want with in a year or two. any help or ideas are welcomed. and I plan on posting in dev corner more n more to get a feel outside of my concept circle about what others think is fesiable and what might just be a waste of time, I know that the game might not even pass the concept design stage and me and my team might never see any of our ideas come to pass..... 

 

I cant say thank you enough, for your concern. 

 

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13578

9/07/14 10:19:02 AM#9
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

Now a days, no one should make there own engine  unless your a huge company, there are plenty of good ones already out.

I say that's nonsense.  It's about like saying that no one should ever make a game that doesn't neatly fit into an existing genre.  I say that we have too many games trying to mimic a handful of popular titles and too few trying to do things radically different, not the other way around.

If what you want to do fits very cleanly with what one or more existing game engines wants to do, then sure, license a game engine that fits what you want to do and make relatively minor modifications to it to fill in the rest.  But if you want to go far off the beaten path in what you do at a low level, you pretty much have to make your own game engine.  Trying to license an existing engine and modify it will require discarding and replacing so many things that you're better off starting from scratch.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1543

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

9/07/14 11:07:44 AM#10

There are some exciting up and coming new engines out there. One that really impresses me by what they have accomplished and how open to idea's and development is www.outerra.com

 

Every one has got their own specialty. Exciting times ahead

 

 

I made a double sided USB cable and I plugged my Console into my PC... or did I plug my PC into my Console? Anyway I can now play Console games on my PC! and play PC games on my Console!

FRIGGING AWESOME!

  TrioxinCreator

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/14
Posts: 9

 
OP  9/07/14 1:48:11 PM#11
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

Now a days, no one should make there own engine  unless your a huge company, there are plenty of good ones already out.

I say that's nonsense.  It's about like saying that no one should ever make a game that doesn't neatly fit into an existing genre.  I say that we have too many games trying to mimic a handful of popular titles and too few trying to do things radically different, not the other way around.

If what you want to do fits very cleanly with what one or more existing game engines wants to do, then sure, license a game engine that fits what you want to do and make relatively minor modifications to it to fill in the rest.  But if you want to go far off the beaten path in what you do at a low level, you pretty much have to make your own game engine.  Trying to license an existing engine and modify it will require discarding and replacing so many things that you're better off starting from scratch.

Thaat is one reason we are thinking about making our own engine, is because of a lot of things we are trying to do. even if we use a engine we will have to still modify one, our problem will be time. we would have to learn the engine we use and then take time to mod it to what we want... 

 

I am thinking we are going to go with a pre existing engine, there are a lot out that will cover most of our bases. and I belive that any mods we would have to make to the engine would be easier then creating a engine in itself.

  TrioxinCreator

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/14
Posts: 9

 
OP  9/07/14 1:50:35 PM#12
Originally posted by laserit

There are some exciting up and coming new engines out there. One that really impresses me by what they have accomplished and how open to idea's and development is www.outerra.com

 

Every one has got their own specialty. Exciting times ahead

 

 

I am liking outerra, it has some nice features that we are looking for, specially in the space opera era where it can compile a planet from space to surface. I am going to check out both unity, and outerra. one of the membera is voting for us to use the cry engine yet I am unsure about its ability to take and randomly build n mark places when in space. 

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 779

9/08/14 12:21:06 AM#13
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

Now a days, no one should make there own engine  unless your a huge company, there are plenty of good ones already out.

I say that's nonsense.  It's about like saying that no one should ever make a game that doesn't neatly fit into an existing genre.  I say that we have too many games trying to mimic a handful of popular titles and too few trying to do things radically different, not the other way around.

If what you want to do fits very cleanly with what one or more existing game engines wants to do, then sure, license a game engine that fits what you want to do and make relatively minor modifications to it to fill in the rest.  But if you want to go far off the beaten path in what you do at a low level, you pretty much have to make your own game engine.  Trying to license an existing engine and modify it will require discarding and replacing so many things that you're better off starting from scratch.

Nonsense you say? SO how many engines have you built matter fact how many MMO's game have you built???

This is a fact, anyone in the industry will tell you there is no point, unless you are just building the engine as the other poster said..This is a fact, I should know I been in the industry for over 20 years.  Plus I have a degree for a reason, plus people bugging me all the time to help them, I know this sounds like I'm being a dick,  I'm not I hate when I see people like you say things like this.. 

 

I have seen to many 2 man, small indies do this and they fail!!!!!  Plus now a days there are good great engines at his disposal. If someone wants to listen to you be my guest, when they fail, they will see why I said what I said.... Doing what he wants, is possible for a 10 man team.. Like he said he has, I'm not saying he should not build this game, but sounds like he has a fair amount of experience  which is great.  But for a first game an MMO, I do not care what size it should never be your first game ever, if you do, you better be ready to never sleep.. If you think I'm lieing again, good, try it and I will see you in 30 years when your done...

I don't say this to people, just because, I have lived it, and seen many experience developers with 15 plus years experience do this on there own.. 

 

To the OP, I read your PM, your welcome to pick my brain any time, I don't mind at all..  I know Unity and many assets from Unity, like the back of my hand.. I also have used Hero, UDK3 and Unreal 4 now. I have used Cry Engine 3 and many engines that none of you prolly heard of ...Cheers.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/08/14 12:34:08 AM#14
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

Now a days, no one should make there own engine  unless your a huge company, there are plenty of good ones already out.

I say that's nonsense.  It's about like saying that no one should ever make a game that doesn't neatly fit into an existing genre.  I say that we have too many games trying to mimic a handful of popular titles and too few trying to do things radically different, not the other way around.

If what you want to do fits very cleanly with what one or more existing game engines wants to do, then sure, license a game engine that fits what you want to do and make relatively minor modifications to it to fill in the rest.  But if you want to go far off the beaten path in what you do at a low level, you pretty much have to make your own game engine.  Trying to license an existing engine and modify it will require discarding and replacing so many things that you're better off starting from scratch.

Nonsense you say? SO how many engines have you built matter fact how many MMO's game have you built???

This is a fact, anyone in the industry will tell you there is no point, unless you are just building the engine as the other poster said..This is a fact, I should know I been in the industry for over 20 years.  Plus I have a degree for a reason, plus people bugging me all the time to help them, I know this sounds like I'm being a dick,  I'm not I hate when I see people like you say things like this.. 

 

I have seen to many 2 man, small indies do this and they fail!!!!!  Plus now a days there are good great engines at his disposal. If someone wants to listen to you be my guest, when they fail, they will see why I said what I said.... Doing what he wants, is possible for a 10 man team.. Like he said he has, I'm not saying he should not build this game, but sounds like he has a fair amount of experience  which is great.  But for a first game an MMO, I do not care what size it should never be your first game ever, if you do, you better be ready to never sleep.. If you think I'm lieing again, good, try it and I will see you in 30 years when your done...

I don't say this to people, just because, I have lived it, and seen many experience developers with 15 plus years experience do this on there own.. 

 

To the OP, I read your PM, your welcome to pick my brain any time, I don't mind at all..  I know Unity and many assets from Unity, like the back of my hand.. I also have used Hero, UDK3 and Unreal 4 now. I have used Cry Engine 3 and many engines that none of you prolly heard of ...Cheers.

I agree with DarkCrystal - building the engine and a game with the scope the OP presents is a ridiculous task for a first game.

Can some small, knowledgeable team somewhere do it? Probably.

Would any professional in the industry recommend doing so? Doubtful. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 502

9/08/14 9:12:13 PM#15

Interesting topic.

Well here is what I have been researching this last month.

I downloaded 6 engines. Compiled and tested 2 of them. Ran cafu through the rendering tests and play test. Ran softpixel through rendering tests. Looked a S2 and Shiva. DX Studio was the more interesting one since it has a decent tool set and is capable of endless worlds. However, it is no longer supported as with many of these engines.

Interesting that all these engines have the same common design. In fact it was almost as if Shiva, S2 and Cafu were compiled from the same code. They all fail in my design so I decided to start modifying.

Last Tuesday I was thinking the real issues a indie has is not engines. It is the lack of tools that work with their current engines. There is nothing really out there for indies. Low and behold on Friday Sony released a new level editor to open source. I got it the day it was released by the way. It's a High end DX11 compliant renderer added to their Authoring Tools Framework.

If I was going to build anything, I would suggest that the OP look a the ATF. It is best choice since to build anything you're going to need tools to do it. ATF will allow you to build everything you need under the latest technology.

https://github.com/SonyWWS/ATF/wiki

As for building a full engine and game, don't think you understand the scope in what it will take to complete it.

  TrioxinCreator

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/14
Posts: 9

 
OP  9/09/14 12:55:33 AM#16
Originally posted by ArChWind

Interesting topic.

Well here is what I have been researching this last month.

I downloaded 6 engines. Compiled and tested 2 of them. Ran cafu through the rendering tests and play test. Ran softpixel through rendering tests. Looked a S2 and Shiva. DX Studio was the more interesting one since it has a decent tool set and is capable of endless worlds. However, it is no longer supported as with many of these engines.

Interesting that all these engines have the same common design. In fact it was almost as if Shiva, S2 and Cafu were compiled from the same code. They all fail in my design so I decided to start modifying.

Last Tuesday I was thinking the real issues a indie has is not engines. It is the lack of tools that work with their current engines. There is nothing really out there for indies. Low and behold on Friday Sony released a new level editor to open source. I got it the day it was released by the way. It's a High end DX11 compliant renderer added to their Authoring Tools Framework.

If I was going to build anything, I would suggest that the OP look a the ATF. It is best choice since to build anything you're going to need tools to do it. ATF will allow you to build everything you need under the latest technology.

https://github.com/SonyWWS/ATF/wiki

As for building a full engine and game, don't think you understand the scope in what it will take to complete it.

 

I do understnad the full scope, and you made a valid point. its the tools. one engine I am interested in seeing what my CodeMonkey can do with is http://www.outerra.com/index.html it is appealing, I mean really apealing. 

One thing I want to be able to duplicate but on a advanced level, is Nevernights had a random dungeon generator, and you could play endlessly and never repeate the same exzact dungeon twice. well think about that but on a broader scope, where there are billions of possiple planets ( over shooting but possible) now take basic creations rules for creating a solar system, planets, and different levels of tech. ( palladium books Rifts dimension book 07 Megaversal builder example of generations rules along with some other rules down the level) and you have a huge galaxy or multiple dimension settings that could automaticly be rendered upon discovery and saved ( Star gate worlds had a good idea with this ) there for creating a ever expanding game setting that will allow players and thier toons discover, create and enjoy a emerse game system. 

( there is a lot more behind it this is just a broad example) 

my problem with finding a game engine is one that will suport it, along with a CMS that is as easy to use as Neverwinter Nights, and as detailed as lets say Skyrim. 

the scope I have is huge, and I realize what is involved. like I have said before I am not thinking I can dive in this with a small crew I have and push out a block buster in a year or two, I have a 5 year goal starting in 2015. this is also my final project for my BS Degree (Game Design & Development-Game Dev & Sup Tech ++). my issue is simple I do nto have cod experience enough to deicde, I have coders who do. we all have code knowledge, right now we are taking from now till the end of the year building a Concept. part fo that concept is the engine, which is why I am here, to learn more about how to chose the right one, and if one doesnt offer the tools that will be needed as we define the concept, then what is differance between using a engine and moding it to the point where the engine is unreconizeable. would it be easier then to just build one? and to get caught up on what is offered in the way of engines and their capibilities. but I agree with you. all the engines seem like a cloned yet with different hair eyes and skin color. 

I plan on posting in the other sections but before I feel comfortable doing that I feel like I need ot choose a few engines to throw to the concept team, so far there are three we are looking at 

Outerra (http://www.outerra.com)

Unity (http://unity3d.com/)

Cry (http://cryengine.com/)  ( will say that based of off a friend beta testing a game that utilizes this engine )

so I am still up for ideas, I know how this looks, and yeah maybe I dont fully grasp the hardwork and hours I am going to put in to this and the headachs, yet I will say this I have 8 out of 10 ( 2 mroe spots open) for my concept team, and so far we realize how big of a idea this is. and members of my team range from just video game players to people who have years experience running as head director of a animation studio in CA. so we might be noobs at putting together a MMO but there is experience between us, and I am comming here to learn from those who are and have more experience then I do in order for me to make a good final descion.

 

and thank you all for your input  

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13578

9/09/14 9:00:00 PM#17
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

Now a days, no one should make there own engine  unless your a huge company, there are plenty of good ones already out.

I say that's nonsense.  It's about like saying that no one should ever make a game that doesn't neatly fit into an existing genre.  I say that we have too many games trying to mimic a handful of popular titles and too few trying to do things radically different, not the other way around.

If what you want to do fits very cleanly with what one or more existing game engines wants to do, then sure, license a game engine that fits what you want to do and make relatively minor modifications to it to fill in the rest.  But if you want to go far off the beaten path in what you do at a low level, you pretty much have to make your own game engine.  Trying to license an existing engine and modify it will require discarding and replacing so many things that you're better off starting from scratch.

Nonsense you say? SO how many engines have you built matter fact how many MMO's game have you built???

This is a fact, anyone in the industry will tell you there is no point, unless you are just building the engine as the other poster said..This is a fact, I should know I been in the industry for over 20 years.  Plus I have a degree for a reason, plus people bugging me all the time to help them, I know this sounds like I'm being a dick,  I'm not I hate when I see people like you say things like this.. 

 

I have seen to many 2 man, small indies do this and they fail!!!!!  Plus now a days there are good great engines at his disposal. If someone wants to listen to you be my guest, when they fail, they will see why I said what I said.... Doing what he wants, is possible for a 10 man team.. Like he said he has, I'm not saying he should not build this game, but sounds like he has a fair amount of experience  which is great.  But for a first game an MMO, I do not care what size it should never be your first game ever, if you do, you better be ready to never sleep.. If you think I'm lieing again, good, try it and I will see you in 30 years when your done...

I don't say this to people, just because, I have lived it, and seen many experience developers with 15 plus years experience do this on there own.. 

 

To the OP, I read your PM, your welcome to pick my brain any time, I don't mind at all..  I know Unity and many assets from Unity, like the back of my hand.. I also have used Hero, UDK3 and Unreal 4 now. I have used Cry Engine 3 and many engines that none of you prolly heard of ...Cheers.

I agree with DarkCrystal - building the engine and a game with the scope the OP presents is a ridiculous task for a first game.

Can some small, knowledgeable team somewhere do it? Probably.

Would any professional in the industry recommend doing so? Doubtful. 

Would you say that Minecraft erred by building their own engine, and should have just scrapped the whole voxel thing and licensed Unity or some such instead?

I'm not saying that everyone should build their own game engine, or even that the original poster should.  But budget isn't the barrier to building a good engine for your game.  Skill set is.  If you want to make your own game engine for your particular game, you're going to need a very good programmer with a strong math background--and the latter immediately rules out most people whose degree is in computer science, let alone something more nebulous like game design.  But you don't need a hundred such people, or even a dozen; you only need one.

To argue that no indie developers should ever build their own game engine is a very, very small step away from arguing that all of the worthwhile game engine innovations that will ever happen have already been done.  I'm not willing to accept that; I think there is plenty of innovation still out there to be had.

I have no doubt that DarkCrystal has worked with a lot more game engines than I have.  But that will only make my next question more pointed:  can you name a game engine that uses tessellation sensibly and is realistically available for an indie developer to license?  Even one?  This isn't some odd corner case:  adding more programmable shader stages to enable tessellation is the primary GPU innovation of the eight years or so, and the thing that drove GPU architectures to move to unified shaders.

-----

I've been working on a game as an amateur project--and yes, making my own engine for it.  My basic thesis for the graphics side of things is that traditional methods of making artwork, and especially animations, are far too expensive.  Small budget games are often reduced to buying artwork, so you can't even get the artwork that you want for your exact game.  In spite of all of the cost, animations are sometimes choppy, and characters rarely seem to be aware of their surroundings as opposed to cycling through fixed frames of animation.  And then you end up with enormous download sizes for really not that much distinct artwork.

So the basic requirements for animations for my game:

1)  Needs to offer far and away the most versatile character creator ever.  It won't be nearly as versatile as the tools that professional artists use, but it will offer vastly more options to random players than the character creator in typical MMORPGs--or even in ones that offer relatively many option.  In particular, there needs to be a lot of options besides the ubiquitous bipeds.

2)  Creating and animating characters needs to be easy enough that random players can do it, not just professionals.  Spending a week creating a character is a non-starter for most players.  Spending half an hour to get exactly what you want is more reasonable.  (Obviously a final game needs to have off-the-shelf options for players who don't want to create their own, but that's easy to do.)  Let players create massive amounts of artwork for their own characters and then you have massive amounts of artwork for the game--and don't need to constantly reuse a few dozen models or so the way most games do.

3)  Animations need to be continuous, with the ability to fill in arbitrarily many frames so that animation would still look perfectly smooth even in super slow motion and arbitrarily close.  Having a handful of discrete, pre-done frames of animation is a complete non-starter for me.

4)  Characters need to be aware of their surroundings.  Swinging a sword shouldn't be just stabbing a fixed point in the air.  You need to be able to swing higher at a tall character, lower at a short character, and so forth.  Standing on the ground should mean feet (or wheels or tail or whatever touches the ground) rest on the ground, as opposed to poking through it or hovering in the air.  In particular, this needs to also be true of tilted or bumpy ground, not just completely flat areas.

5)  Characters need to appear smooth when desired, not jagged up close because the artist was on a fixed polygon count.  Edges that are jagged because the artist wanted them to be jagged are completely fine.  But if the artist wants to draw a sphere, it should look like a sphere--smooth enough that you can't tell where the vertices are.

6)  Texture resolutions should be limited only by how much video memory the end user has, not by limitations on how large of fixed textures a company was willing to include with the game.  In particular, wanting to reduce download sizes or installation sizes shouldn't be a barrier here.

7)  All of the data for a character that the game engine needs to use in order to render the character, excluding the game engine itself, needs to fit in several KB.  That includes textures, vertex data, and animations.  And yes, I do mean KB, not MB--and in spite of needing to support arbitrarily high texture resolutions.  My ambition is to allow other players' characters to be streamed to players on the fly, and not need to be part of a large download.  In isolation, this point might seem easy, but see point (1).

8)  The game needs to run smoothly on recent, low end hardware.  Basically, if it runs smoothly at reduced graphical settings--while doing all of the above--on an AMD A10 Micro-6700T--which is a 4.5 W tablet chip--I'll be satisfied on this count.  I'm not bothered if the game doesn't run well on older hardware.

So, what game engine do I license that can do all of that?  Or even most of it?  If there aren't any, then for me, licensing a game engine is a complete non-starter.

I'm far into making my own, and am pretty certain that I can do what I've described above.  But only by making my own engine.  I also want to do some things radically different from the norm on networking, servers, and world design, so even if I did start by licensing a game engine, I wouldn't just discard basically everything it does with graphics; I'd also discard most other things as not being relevant to what I need.  But I haven't done much with those, so I really shouldn't make claims about them.

I would totally understand if you think I'm crazy.  If I saw some random person with Internet access claiming he could do these things three years ago, I'd have thought he was crazy, too.  And the still screenshots really aren't going to look that good--certainly not nearly as good as your typical $50 million game.  But I've long held that people judging a game's graphics put far too much emphasis on still screenshots and far too little on how things look in motion.  The latter is all that matters when you play the game.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 502

9/09/14 9:23:04 PM#18


Originally posted by Quizzical

1) Needs to offer far and away the most versatile character creator ever. It won't be nearly as versatile as the tools that professional artists use, but it will offer vastly more options to random players than the character creator in typical MMORPGs--or even in ones that offer relatively many option. In particular, there needs to be a lot of options besides the ubiquitous bipeds.


You really should check out the things that are being offered out there. Here is a free animation package that can do everything you want it to and probably more than you would ever be able to program.

The latest thing in technology is at the indies doorstep you just need to look for it.

http://smartbody.ict.usc.edu/

  TrioxinCreator

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/14
Posts: 9

 
OP  9/09/14 10:22:51 PM#19

Would you say that Minecraft erred by building their own engine, and should have just scrapped the whole voxel thing and licensed Unity or some such instead?

I'm not saying that everyone should build their own game engine, or even that the original poster should.  But budget isn't the barrier to building a good engine for your game.  Skill set is.  If you want to make your own game engine for your particular game, you're going to need a very good programmer with a strong math background--and the latter immediately rules out most people whose degree is in computer science, let alone something more nebulous like game design.  But you don't need a hundred such people, or even a dozen; you only need one.

To argue that no indie developers should ever build their own game engine is a very, very small step away from arguing that all of the worthwhile game engine innovations that will ever happen have already been done.  I'm not willing to accept that; I think there is plenty of innovation still out there to be had.

I have no doubt that DarkCrystal has worked with a lot more game engines than I have.  But that will only make my next question more pointed:  can you name a game engine that uses tessellation sensibly and is realistically available for an indie developer to license?  Even one?  This isn't some odd corner case:  adding more programmable shader stages to enable tessellation is the primary GPU innovation of the eight years or so, and the thing that drove GPU architectures to move to unified shaders.

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I've been working on a game as an amateur project--and yes, making my own engine for it.  My basic thesis for the graphics side of things is that traditional methods of making artwork, and especially animations, are far too expensive.  Small budget games are often reduced to buying artwork, so you can't even get the artwork that you want for your exact game.  In spite of all of the cost, animations are sometimes choppy, and characters rarely seem to be aware of their surroundings as opposed to cycling through fixed frames of animation.  And then you end up with enormous download sizes for really not that much distinct artwork.

So the basic requirements for animations for my game:

1)  Needs to offer far and away the most versatile character creator ever.  It won't be nearly as versatile as the tools that professional artists use, but it will offer vastly more options to random players than the character creator in typical MMORPGs--or even in ones that offer relatively many option.  In particular, there needs to be a lot of options besides the ubiquitous bipeds.

2)  Creating and animating characters needs to be easy enough that random players can do it, not just professionals.  Spending a week creating a character is a non-starter for most players.  Spending half an hour to get exactly what you want is more reasonable.  (Obviously a final game needs to have off-the-shelf options for players who don't want to create their own, but that's easy to do.)  Let players create massive amounts of artwork for their own characters and then you have massive amounts of artwork for the game--and don't need to constantly reuse a few dozen models or so the way most games do.

3)  Animations need to be continuous, with the ability to fill in arbitrarily many frames so that animation would still look perfectly smooth even in super slow motion and arbitrarily close.  Having a handful of discrete, pre-done frames of animation is a complete non-starter for me.

4)  Characters need to be aware of their surroundings.  Swinging a sword shouldn't be just stabbing a fixed point in the air.  You need to be able to swing higher at a tall character, lower at a short character, and so forth.  Standing on the ground should mean feet (or wheels or tail or whatever touches the ground) rest on the ground, as opposed to poking through it or hovering in the air.  In particular, this needs to also be true of tilted or bumpy ground, not just completely flat areas.

5)  Characters need to appear smooth when desired, not jagged up close because the artist was on a fixed polygon count.  Edges that are jagged because the artist wanted them to be jagged are completely fine.  But if the artist wants to draw a sphere, it should look like a sphere--smooth enough that you can't tell where the vertices are.

6)  Texture resolutions should be limited only by how much video memory the end user has, not by limitations on how large of fixed textures a company was willing to include with the game.  In particular, wanting to reduce download sizes or installation sizes shouldn't be a barrier here.

7)  All of the data for a character that the game engine needs to use in order to render the character, excluding the game engine itself, needs to fit in several KB.  That includes textures, vertex data, and animations.  And yes, I do mean KB, not MB--and in spite of needing to support arbitrarily high texture resolutions.  My ambition is to allow other players' characters to be streamed to players on the fly, and not need to be part of a large download.  In isolation, this point might seem easy, but see point (1).

8)  The game needs to run smoothly on recent, low end hardware.  Basically, if it runs smoothly at reduced graphical settings--while doing all of the above--on an AMD A10 Micro-6700T--which is a 4.5 W tablet chip--I'll be satisfied on this count.  I'm not bothered if the game doesn't run well on older hardware.

So, what game engine do I license that can do all of that?  Or even most of it?  If there aren't any, then for me, licensing a game engine is a complete non-starter.

I'm far into making my own, and am pretty certain that I can do what I've described above.  But only by making my own engine.  I also want to do some things radically different from the norm on networking, servers, and world design, so even if I did start by licensing a game engine, I wouldn't just discard basically everything it does with graphics; I'd also discard most other things as not being relevant to what I need.  But I haven't done much with those, so I really shouldn't make claims about them.

I would totally understand if you think I'm crazy.  If I saw some random person with Internet access claiming he could do these things three years ago, I'd have thought he was crazy, too.  And the still screenshots really aren't going to look that good--certainly not nearly as good as your typical $50 million game.  But I've long held that people judging a game's graphics put far too much emphasis on still screenshots and far too little on how things look in motion.  The latter is all that matters when you play the game.

1) The character creator is going to be the same as the CMS/Tool set where inexperienced players can create thier character with in 5-30 minutes, or you can delve in to deeper creation. it depends on the player, when I played a elder scrolls game for the first time I fell in love with how much control you had to create a one of a kind Toon ( Character = Toon) and I want it to be more intense if the player chooses, if the player wants random looks then it will have a random option with the ability to tweek what the player chooses. or a player can pick a frame and build up from there. ( this si also responce to #2)

3) we are tossing the idea or having the game run from the cloud. am nto sure about this yet the imeanse size and scale of info the compleate game could easlily be well in to 40Gigs of instalations ( for both the CMS/Tool set, and initial game client not to mention patches, DLC, Expansions etc.)  

4) our combat system goals are going to be in Depth, we are trying to make a multi-factor combat system that is seemless, not a typical WOW clone system, or standard auto attack targetting etc. one thing about being aware of surroundings in our game is controlling issues, WSAD+mouse is good but it gives limited ability for attack and targetting. we havent even touched this issue except to be able to intail some other features and discuss some of the combat.

5) thats one of our goals, that when you zoom in that the Toon will still look smoth not bumpy and jagged. 

6) why we are tossing around the cloud idea, run some on the cloud, some local. it is on the table 

7) I agree 

8) same thing why we are using the cloud, our idea also includes older hardware. and slower systems. now days prebought store systems dont have the graphic, processor power ( talking about compleate systems for 500$ range) and a lot of people are limited to these systems. from things being done utilizing cloud technology I am thinking that it is good

I know I am vague on some things, I appoligize. 

the hole thing we are talking about with my project is licencing a engine, then modding it for what we need it to do that it cant do. 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/09/14 10:31:44 PM#20
Originally posted by Quizzical

Would you say that Minecraft erred by building their own engine, and should have just scrapped the whole voxel thing and licensed Unity or some such instead?

When you say "Minecraft", I assume you are referring to Markus Persson, the professional game developer that worked on several titles before, including his own creation, Wurm Online. Is that correct? 

Does that answer your question? 

 

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