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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Accounting for crowd funding. Is scam a big possibility?

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75 posts found
  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

8/23/14 11:52:10 AM#41
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
 

Joke or not he still made people shell out money or not? isn't that what the goal of kickstarter is? 

And logic would state that since no average joe can do it and since it is an illussion , he should have failed. But he didn't. Everyone has to start somewhere.

 

so you think the entire corporate system is corrupt because of a few Enron Executives? Who I might add where involved in a REAL scam not an HONEST joke.

Unlike Enron, people shelled out money becuase they knew EXACTLY what they were getting...nothing but a laugh.

 

No i never said that. But i do believe in this case there is more to 'exception not a rule' theory.

Well atleast you agree with me on one thing that in MMO crowdfunding people doesn't even know what they are going to get and still shell out money. So if people know 'exactly' what they are going to get makes crowdfunding even more lucrative.

Now all i have to do is come up with something and soon 'hello new ferrari'. 

1. patato salad kickstarter is not a scam...period end of story.

2. Enron was a scam...

3. if you base an entire system on one person then we can all agree that Kickstarters are great because of minecraft

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1774

 
OP  8/23/14 11:55:12 AM#42
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

1. patato salad kickstarter is not a scam...period end of story.

2. Enron was a scam...

3. if you base an entire system on one person then we can all agree that Kickstarters are great because of minecraft

 

Jeez.i never said it is a scam. I was simply commenting on the exception in the case of 'average joe'.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

8/23/14 11:57:02 AM#43
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

1. patato salad kickstarter is not a scam...period end of story.

2. Enron was a scam...

3. if you base an entire system on one person then we can all agree that Kickstarters are great because of minecraft

 

Jeez.i never said it is a scam. I was simply commenting on the exception in the case of 'average joe'.

ok fair enough on the scam.

 

then you are saying if its possible for a president to lie to the public then it means the presidency is a bad system?

 

The guy you responded to went through the trouble of providing numbers and a little bit of math. You on the other hand seem to think 1 = 100%

Correlation does not imply causation

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6831

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

8/23/14 11:59:22 AM#44

Recently there was a women who asked for crowd funding and she used the money to put her daughter through school and nobody seemed to care because she was a popular actress.I don't know how they found out though,i think the point is you don't really know.

However when a developer is dealing with  banks and investors  ,the legality is a lot more adhered to.Recently Schilling was sued for loans but imo it was a no brainer,the guy put up 60 million+ of his own money,i would say that is sincere.most of these scams are scams,they put up nothing and claim nothing and your money is wrongfully termed as buying your way into thre development process.The TRUTH is that your money actually IS the development process and you are 100% funding the project,problem is under those terms there would be legal issues so they have found a way around it.

I would even go as far as to claim proper taxes are not being paid,the same scam as "donations" pull off and yes there are a lot of developers using that scam as well.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1774

 
OP  8/23/14 12:00:44 PM#45
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

1. patato salad kickstarter is not a scam...period end of story.

2. Enron was a scam...

3. if you base an entire system on one person then we can all agree that Kickstarters are great because of minecraft

 

Jeez.i never said it is a scam. I was simply commenting on the exception in the case of 'average joe'.

ok fair enough on the scam.

 

then you are saying if its possible for a president to lie to the public then it means the presidency is a bad system?

 

The guy you responded to went through the trouble of providing numbers and a little bit of math. You on the other hand seem to think 1 = 100%

Well earlier it was zero and now it is 1. I never said 1 = 100% but i do believe that scam or no scam, joke or serious....the 'potato salad' kickstarter does open the doors for kickstarters for average joe.

I never disagreed with what he said though. But he was also very sure that no average guy can do it.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

8/23/14 12:02:19 PM#46
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

1. patato salad kickstarter is not a scam...period end of story.

2. Enron was a scam...

3. if you base an entire system on one person then we can all agree that Kickstarters are great because of minecraft

 

Jeez.i never said it is a scam. I was simply commenting on the exception in the case of 'average joe'.

ok fair enough on the scam.

 

then you are saying if its possible for a president to lie to the public then it means the presidency is a bad system?

 

The guy you responded to went through the trouble of providing numbers and a little bit of math. You on the other hand seem to think 1 = 100%

Well earlier it was zero and now it is 1. I never said 1 = 100% but i do believe that scam or no scam, joke or serious....the 'potato salad' kickstarter does open the doors for kickstarters for average joe.

I never disagreed with what he said though. But he was also very sure that no average guy can do it.

go back and read what he said. 

low does not equal zero.

 

might I suggest taking a class in statistics? 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1774

 
OP  8/23/14 12:05:07 PM#47
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

go back and read what he said. 

low does not equal zero.

 

might I suggest taking a class in statistics? 

Ok you try to keep putting words in my mouth so i will stop right here.

When i said before it was 'zero' i meant no average guy tried  a successful kickstarter. So now we have one example and there are probably more we haven't heard about yet.

I don't know what statistic got anything to do with this.

How many numbers or percentage of 'average joes' starting successful kickstarters would be good enough for you..well you decide.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

8/23/14 12:08:21 PM#48
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

go back and read what he said. 

low does not equal zero.

 

might I suggest taking a class in statistics? 

Ok you try to keep putting words in my mouth so i will stop right here.

When i said before it was 'zero' i meant no average guy tried  a successful kickstarter. So now we have one example and there are probably more we haven't heard about yet.

I don't know what statistic got anything to do with this.

ok I will try to explain what he was trying to say.

What he was saying is that the chance of XYZ happening is very low.not zero but low. 1 in 6000 is stastically extreemly low.

Now consider these factors.

1. This 'average guy' is actually just making money in a clever and honest way. there is nothing whatseover wrong with it. Why would someone want this not to happen?

2. On AVERAGE more good has come from kickstarters then bad. 

3. if we use very small numbers to represent the entire then we can say kickstarter is a smashing success because of minecraft and oculus rift

 

understand?

Correlation does not imply causation

  shane242

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 86

:(

8/23/14 1:03:24 PM#49
I look at it the same as a charity, Who really knows how much goes to a good cause and how much is used as "bonuses"

Dyslexia Warning: Grammar Trolls be gone

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20156

8/24/14 5:34:29 PM#50
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
 

Joke or not he still made people shell out money or not? isn't that what the goal of kickstarter is? 

And logic would state that since no average joe can do it and since it is an illussion , he should have failed. But he didn't. Everyone has to start somewhere.

 

so you think the entire corporate system is corrupt because of a few Enron Executives? Who I might add where involved in a REAL scam not an HONEST joke.

Unlike Enron, people shelled out money becuase they knew EXACTLY what they were getting...nothing but a laugh.

 

I agree with Seanmcad for once. It is a free market. If they can get people to overpay a joke, more power to them. It is not illegal to over-price and sell stuff with no value, as long as you don't claim otherwise.

 

  Aeander

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/11
Posts: 311

8/26/14 6:22:11 AM#51

Just going off of the conversations on our own forums, Divergence Online appears to be that crowdfunding scam.

 

It's been going on for almost a decade now. Each time the developer's poor budgeting leaves him without funds, he puts up some "assets" developed in a cheap creation tool and pitches some new ideas. 

 

The telling action, however, was that he manipulated the Kickstarter regulations by having a bunch of real-life friends and associates pledge money to get him over the minimum goal - only to have their donations returned after the fact. It's an abuse to receive money from legitimate donors without actually meeting Kickstarter's minimum goal. 

  PioneerStew

Elite Member

Joined: 9/24/11
Posts: 813

8/26/14 6:34:10 AM#52

My major problem with Kickstarter is that they keep 5% of a successful projects funding but absolve themselves of any responsibility to check the feasibility of that project on even the most basic level.  

Anyone can look through Kickstarter projects and see at a glance that in many cases the funds requested are woefully inadequate to deliver the promised project.  

I dislike a lot about Kickstarter.  I dislike the fact that it bypasses the ordinary process of attracting investors in favour of parting ordinary people from their hard earned cash under the guise of it being some altruistic act or of giving them access to some exclusive club.  

In reality these firms using Kickstarter are making profit off this money without having to pay any of the returns they would on any other investment; they must be laughing all the way to the bank.  Kickstarter especially when they are skimming 5% off the top without any legal recourse for those people who have contributed.  

The entire process strikes me as a scam from start to finish.   

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7175

8/26/14 6:40:08 AM#53

The problem with crowdfunding is that it is a loophole in the system.

It is not non-profit donation thus it does not fall under very strict accounting rules as non-profit organizations do, neither it is an investment thus there is no contract, no one that could actually sue you as fraud technically does not exist there - considering it is a private held company.

Until legislative catches up, it is money with no liability. The word "scam" has no meaning there. You give them money, they can do whatever thay want with that money.

Crowdfunding for commercial projects is very bad on every level.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1358

8/26/14 9:31:39 AM#54
Originally posted by PioneerStew

 

In reality these firms using Kickstarter are making profit off this money without having to pay any of the returns they would on any other investment; they must be laughing all the way to the bank.  Kickstarter especially when they are skimming 5% off the top without any legal recourse for those people who have contributed.  

The entire process strikes me as a scam from start to finish.   

 

People who back things on KS know what they're doing. We're not nearly as stupid as you make us out to be. Kickstarter is not an investment or really a donation (although it is much closer to the latter) but most people are doing it at least partly for the backer rewards. I get your thing when it comes out, probably at a discount. Without my help the thing probably will never get made in the first place.

It does require trust and basic research that who you're backing is actually capable of delivering what they promise. Those who assume that everyone is out to scam them or are incapable of doing basic research before backing should frankly completely avoid crowdfunding.

 

The 5% KS takes is because they provide a centralized site and way to donate. People are welcome to try to run crowdfunding campaigns from their own site but I think would quickly find paying to be on KS will more than pay for itself in the long run.

 

It's *not* KS's job to ensure the safety and viability of projects. It's your responsibility as a potential backer to stay away from shady/unviable projects.

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7175

8/26/14 10:01:47 AM#55


Originally posted by iridescence

It's *not* KS's job to ensure the safety and viability of projects. It's your responsibility as a potential backer to stay away from shady/unviable projects.

 


The thing is, they are not inciting safety nor viability either.

If it was truly your responsibility of staying away from shady/unviable projects, then you must stay away from KS, since transparency is neither provided nor enforced for money you donate.

Whether you like it or not, it boils down to blind trust and empty promises, which is exactly what getting money off gulliable people is about.

  Phaserlight

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 707

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

8/26/14 10:15:56 AM#56
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I have been saying this a lot here but I will say it again.

For me, crowdfunding has brought better games to the industry than 'traditional' methods and although not techically a 'scam' I feel I have been cheated more by AAA firms then I have my crowd funded ones

Partly to the OP and partly to this:

I have the same question as the OP - to what accounting standards are crowdfunded projects held?

Here in the U.S., corporations that earn over 10 million in one year must fill out a 10-K report, which is publicly accessible.  Here is what a 10-K report looks like.  These provide detailed windows into exactly how investors' monies are being spent by the corporation.

As best I can tell, crowdfunding falls into a legal grey area; parent companies of projects that earn more than 10 million in crowdfunding have failed to turn up 10-K reports so far (If I'm wrong, please hit me in the face with a link).

This is very disconcerting to me, as a recent M.B.A. graduate.  Where is the culpability?  I'd much rather support a multimillion dollar company that is transparent and communicative in exactly how its earnings are being spent than one that operates on vague promises and hand-waving.

"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
Check it out on Steam

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11563

8/26/14 10:29:28 AM#57
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by immodium

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad

Thanks for that link i officially hate my life now. 

the potato salad KS inspired many spinoff food kickstarters  (none of them got funded)

 

some trivia  (italics are from this blog)

https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/potato-salad-by-the-numbers?ref=HappeningNewsletterAug0514

On July 6th, three days after it went live, Zack was on local TV news in Columbus, Ohio, expressing amazement at how the thing had blown up. At the time he had fewer than 200 backers.

Traffic to the project page quickly took off and eventually reached 4.1 million visits

That made it the fourth-most-viewed project page in Kickstarter’s history. The top ten:

 1.Ouya game console
 2.Pebble watch
 3.Veronica Mars movie
 4.Potato Salad
 5.Double Fine Adventure
 6.Project Eternity
 7.Penny Arcade
 8.Reading Rainbow
 9.Mighty No. 9
10.Oculus Rift

It’s funny to think that more people have seen the potato salad project than Oculus Rift, but hey, the Internet is a crazy place
.
 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20156

8/26/14 11:23:56 AM#58
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by PioneerStew

 

In reality these firms using Kickstarter are making profit off this money without having to pay any of the returns they would on any other investment; they must be laughing all the way to the bank.  Kickstarter especially when they are skimming 5% off the top without any legal recourse for those people who have contributed.  

The entire process strikes me as a scam from start to finish.   

 

People who back things on KS know what they're doing. We're not nearly as stupid as you make us out to be. Kickstarter is not an investment or really a donation (although it is much closer to the latter) but most people are doing it at least partly for the backer rewards. I get your thing when it comes out, probably at a discount. Without my help the thing probably will never get made in the first place.

It does require trust and basic research that who you're backing is actually capable of delivering what they promise. Those who assume that everyone is out to scam them or are incapable of doing basic research before backing should frankly completely avoid crowdfunding.

 

The 5% KS takes is because they provide a centralized site and way to donate. People are welcome to try to run crowdfunding campaigns from their own site but I think would quickly find paying to be on KS will more than pay for itself in the long run.

 

It's *not* KS's job to ensure the safety and viability of projects. It's your responsibility as a potential backer to stay away from shady/unviable projects.

 

I will just stay away from all since ks is not helping to distinguish between the good and the bad ... And why should i pay for a promise anyway? There r plenty of entertainment i can buy now.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1358

8/26/14 11:38:50 AM#59
Originally posted by Phaserlight
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

Here in the U.S., corporations that earn over 10 million in one year must fill out a 10-K report, which is publicly accessible.  Here is what a 10-K report looks like.  These provide detailed windows into exactly how investors' monies are being spent by the corporation.

As best I can tell, crowdfunding falls into a legal grey area; parent companies of projects that earn more than 10 million in crowdfunding have failed to turn up 10-K reports so far (If I'm wrong, please hit me in the face with a link).

 

Surely as an MBA graduate you understand that backing something on Kickstarter does not make you an investor or entitled to the same protections investors get?

 

Crowdfunding is a very risky way to spend your money and you definitely should not use money for it that you would be really upset to lose. While most people aren't scammers there are a few bad apples and some projects just don't turn out as advertised through no real fault of the developer.

On the positive side, maybe I've been lucky but so far all of the 10 or so games I've got from KS have either met or surpassed my expectations and it makes me feel good to know I in a small way helped some pretty cool things come into the world.

 

  Pepeq

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/14
Posts: 623

8/26/14 11:40:00 AM#60
Send me your money... I'll send you an itemized list of where it went.
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