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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How you feel about PvE content gated behind PvP?

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32 posts found
  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1376

We live for The One, we die for The One.

8/21/14 12:58:05 PM#21
only way i would be kind of ok with it would be if the pvp part was something like event, as was opening AQ in WoW - each side would have to achieve some PvP milestones/quests but once the content would be unlocked, noone would have to PvP to participate
  Octagon7711

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 640

Devs please nerf paper it's overpowered I'm rock which is fine scissors are fine.

8/21/14 1:04:57 PM#22

If the PVE content is enjoyable I have done it in PVP zones and even in PVP open world games.  But the content has to be really good or have really good escape mechanics like L2 had blessed escape scrolls that instantly teleported you into town. The PK'er could only get you if he took you out with one burst which actually never happened to me, one did come very close once.  I got ganked mostly in low level zones where they would go after noobs for easy kills, but once you leveled you were mostly left alone.  And even in that game open PVP never became a major problem.  Also played Eve because I liked exploring the PVE content.

 

 

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 393

8/21/14 1:07:45 PM#23
I enjoyed DF just like every other vanilla/Shrouded Isles DAoC player that I know, but it was a stroke of genius that was probably unintentionally balanced.

Darkness falls had separate wings that fed in from each realm's land, got progressively more dangerous (ranging from mid-level mobs up to elite mobs only taken down by groups), and was opened to PvE players OUTSIDE the PvP zones whenever that realm owned a majority of frontier (PvP) keeps. PvE players never HAD to PvP, with Shrouded Isles there were other PvE areas always available that provided competitive rewards, and would always have the chance to enter DF (at least on my server, all 3 realms experienced its ownership on a fairly common basis). However, if players of a realm really wanted time in that dungeon, they could help out the realm in the frontier. An awesome system that created connections between PvPers and PvEers without forcing anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. All Mythic had to do was ensure population balances to help keep the dungeon from being perma-owned by a certain realm(s).

Any other instance of PvE content gated behind PvP content should model it after the DF system. They could create their own unique system that struck the balance, but track records show it might be best to just emulate an old system that worked.
  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/21/14 1:10:57 PM#24

Darkfall is adding PvE content, and while it probably won't be gated behind PvP content, players will certainly have to participate in the PvP content to play the PvE content. :-)

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Jaedor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 1015

8/21/14 1:13:05 PM#25

OP, that's the only instance I can think of where PvE is gated by PvP. And it actually worked in WoW. Mostly I think because it was a matter of quick, one-boss fights that dropped good loot. Easy to pug, quick in and out. And maybe you stayed to PvP afterwards.


But generally, I think it's a pretty bad idea. Props to Blizz for making it work.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6241

 
OP  8/21/14 8:11:02 PM#26
Originally posted by Kyleran
Best example I can think of is Darkness Falls in DAOC. One of the best money earning PVE dungeons in the game, at least in the early days, and the only way you could get access is if your realm took enemy keeps via PVP in the Frontiers.

Even after that was done, your realm had to go clear out DF of the enemy realm who owned it last, some of the best PVP the game had.

IMO, this is what set DAOC apart from any game before or after, and what is missing from titles such as WAR, GW2, and now ESO that greatly diminishes their faction PVP.

Even Mythic back in the day failed to comprehend how important this dungeon was to their game, it gave the PVP purpose, even people who weren't huge fans went out to Keep take, because we wanted in DF.

I spent a large portion of last year taking keeps in a free shard just to get into DF, night after night, and am looking forward to doing it again, hopefully soon.

I never played DAoC, so can you explained how Darkness Falls worked, and why it was successful where most here seem to say that model isnt interesting?

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5826

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

8/21/14 8:30:34 PM#27
as long as the PvP in that area is fair im OK with it. If i am doing PvE and a max level ganker starts camping and one shooting everyone to stop them from progressing then i wont bother with that content, thats not real pvp. So i think that would involve level downscaling to that PvE area for PvP purposes. Stat adjustment should be considered too. Otherwise, just dont mix pvp with pve at all.

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 393

8/21/14 8:55:39 PM#28
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I never played DAoC, so can you explained how Darkness Falls worked, and why it was successful where most here seem to say that model isnt interesting?

A few posts above yours I explained it in general terms.  To expoud:

 

Once DF changed hands, it did not automatically zone out players of other realms who were currently playing or were logged out in the zone.  It simply changed the entrance permissions.  So, high-level PvP players could log out in DF, and if it changed hands, could log those players in to defend their wing while other players either cotinued to farm or evacuated the dungeon.  They could also stealth up the opposing faction's wing and gank lower level players who had just entered the dungeon through their newly opened access.  Players of realms who did not have access respawned outside the dungeon if killed inside.

 

It made for a unique and temporary PvP session that mixed with dangerous PvE mobs (in the lower levels of the dungeon).  However, eventually and inevitably, the dungeon would be controlled by the realm who owned its entrance at the time.  Then it became a boon for its PvE rewards.

 

Keeps generally weren't simple things to take (at least, not when there were a number of defenders), so the dungeon could stay with a realm for a while.  However, when populations weren't imbalanced, any realm could call out its extra players (PvEers who were willing to PvP for the access to DF) to take the keeps needed.  In a way, DF itself was a population balancer: the winning realm generally had less folks in the frontiers due to DF access (folks liked clearing it out of enemy players and farmed there with alts to grind/gather resources), which gave the other two realms a slight advantage when attempting to take back keeps they had lost.  It was quite beautiful, really.

 

EDIT - It's important to note that at no time were players forced to expose themselves to any sort of gameplay they didn't want to engage in.  Once the dungeon changed hands, you could log your character out and leave him parked awaitig access to shift back to your realm, or leave the dungeon before the hordes came in to wipe you.  You never had to step foot into the frontiers to enjoy the benefits of the dungeon, so long as your realm could capture the keeps required for its access.  And, it wasn't the end-all-be-all of endgame content (at least not after Shrouded Isles), so max level PvEers had other things they could do if DF was closed to them.  However, it did provide some unique drops and resources for crafting that made pushing for access worthwhile, and many primarily PvE players participated in PvE to help gain their realm access.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

8/21/14 11:55:25 PM#29
Originally posted by Jaedor

OP, that's the only instance I can think of where PvE is gated by PvP. And it actually worked in WoW. Mostly I think because it was a matter of quick, one-boss fights that dropped good loot. Easy to pug, quick in and out. And maybe you stayed to PvP afterwards.


But generally, I think it's a pretty bad idea. Props to Blizz for making it work.

It "works" in the extent that players will play it.

However, many (including me, and everyone in my guild) prefers that boss is just available.

 

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

8/22/14 2:30:20 AM#30
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
I enjoyed DF just like every other vanilla/Shrouded Isles DAoC player that I know, but it was a stroke of genius that was probably unintentionally balanced.

Darkness falls had separate wings that fed in from each realm's land, got progressively more dangerous (ranging from mid-level mobs up to elite mobs only taken down by groups), and was opened to PvE players OUTSIDE the PvP zones whenever that realm owned a majority of frontier (PvP) keeps. PvE players never HAD to PvP, with Shrouded Isles there were other PvE areas always available that provided competitive rewards, and would always have the chance to enter DF (at least on my server, all 3 realms experienced its ownership on a fairly common basis). However, if players of a realm really wanted time in that dungeon, they could help out the realm in the frontier. An awesome system that created connections between PvPers and PvEers without forcing anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. All Mythic had to do was ensure population balances to help keep the dungeon from being perma-owned by a certain realm(s).

Any other instance of PvE content gated behind PvP content should model it after the DF system. They could create their own unique system that struck the balance, but track records show it might be best to just emulate an old system that worked.

Good summary. And with that said.. Darkness Falls was not really gated behind PvP content.. as the poster above already said somehow. As a pve player you never had to pvp.. however it was tied to PvP, as some older PvP Dungeons(UO, Dungeons where PvP is allowed) are also tied to PvP.

In my mind gated content, especially with 2 different gameplay parts, is never a good idea. It is not a good idea to gate pvp content behind pve content, nor would it be a good idea to gate pve content behind pvp content.. or to gate RAid content behind crafting content. Because not everyone will like everything, and those will then locked out of their favored content.

To tie something together, or to mix content is a different thing and may lay ties between different player types.. therefor it was always a good idea to make pvpers dependable on crafters, or pveers dependable on pvpers(darkness falls), or similar stuff.. but just don't force players to play content they don't like to be able to play content they actually like.

However.. if it just optional and not mandatory it may be ok.. however i don't see a lot of advantage for gated content in general.. but that's my humble opinion.

  jdizzle2k13

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/13
Posts: 218

Don't worry about the past. Look at how to shape your future.

8/22/14 9:07:42 AM#31

I don't mind PvE content gated behind PvP, as long as there is other PvE content available of the same level that is not gated behind PvP and provides similar rewards.

In WoW, with Wintergrasp and Tol Barad, you have raids where your faction has to own the land that the raid was located in order to participate.  However, they provide fewer total good PvE items than other raids of the same level.  So while it could help you get geared, it wasn't mandatory.

I think as long as it isn't mandatory, but can still provide an incentive to PvE players, it's a good idea.  Have your normal dungeon/raid content, and also one "special" dungeon or raid that allows a group of players whose faction/group/guild/whatever owns it access to gear of an equivalent level to the normal dungeon/raid content.



  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19520

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/22/14 9:19:28 AM#32
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
I enjoyed DF just like every other vanilla/Shrouded Isles DAoC player that I know, but it was a stroke of genius that was probably unintentionally balanced.

Darkness falls had separate wings that fed in from each realm's land, got progressively more dangerous (ranging from mid-level mobs up to elite mobs only taken down by groups), and was opened to PvE players OUTSIDE the PvP zones whenever that realm owned a majority of frontier (PvP) keeps. PvE players never HAD to PvP, with Shrouded Isles there were other PvE areas always available that provided competitive rewards, and would always have the chance to enter DF (at least on my server, all 3 realms experienced its ownership on a fairly common basis). However, if players of a realm really wanted time in that dungeon, they could help out the realm in the frontier. An awesome system that created connections between PvPers and PvEers without forcing anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. All Mythic had to do was ensure population balances to help keep the dungeon from being perma-owned by a certain realm(s).

Any other instance of PvE content gated behind PvP content should model it after the DF system. They could create their own unique system that struck the balance, but track records show it might be best to just emulate an old system that worked.

Good summary. And with that said.. Darkness Falls was not really gated behind PvP content.. as the poster above already said somehow. As a pve player you never had to pvp.. however it was tied to PvP, as some older PvP Dungeons(UO, Dungeons where PvP is allowed) are also tied to PvP.

In my mind gated content, especially with 2 different gameplay parts, is never a good idea. It is not a good idea to gate pvp content behind pve content, nor would it be a good idea to gate pve content behind pvp content.. or to gate RAid content behind crafting content. Because not everyone will like everything, and those will then locked out of their favored content.

To tie something together, or to mix content is a different thing and may lay ties between different player types.. therefor it was always a good idea to make pvpers dependable on crafters, or pveers dependable on pvpers(darkness falls), or similar stuff.. but just don't force players to play content they don't like to be able to play content they actually like.

However.. if it just optional and not mandatory it may be ok.. however i don't see a lot of advantage for gated content in general.. but that's my humble opinion.

I brought up DAOC early in the thread because it was the closest I could think of to the OP's example.

I agree, you don't have to reach some sort of PVP 'attunement' level before you can enter DF, but additionally if you go in DF you will at some point be killed by another player so PVP cannot be totally avoided.

I also agree that gating content behind another mechanic isn't really good, especially if they aren't very related.  No entrance to a PVP zone if you don't first complete PVE attunement raid alpha is not a good idea, nor is the converse.

I'm not even a fan of games where they put the best crafting materials in PVP only zones to encourage crafters to come out and fight for them.  Yeah, sure, I can get my guildmates to do it, or buy them from the market, but if I really want to be left alone to craft in peace, this mechanic would be annoying. (By the way, almost never want to do any crafting, but I can see where it would annoy the crafters)

I believe early in DAOC's life there were either crafting stations or vendors that could only be found/used in the PVP frontier keeps, so as a crafter your alliance or guild had to own them in order for you to craft certain items.  They did away with this at some point, but I recall it being there originally.

 

 

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