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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Please Stop With the Genre's Doom and Gloom!

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102 posts found
  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2266

8/21/14 9:31:42 AM#61


Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.


Well your post is completely flawed because the market base has expanded very significantly in the past 14 years. MMORPG is a shrinking market at this point, not a growing one compared to the overall gaming market. It is primarily because very little is coming out that is high quality.

To use a simple comparison. If a movie comes out today that grosses $500M it is considered a success but nothing special, that was the highest grossing film in 2000. The computer gaming industry has exploded over the past 14 years.

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

8/21/14 9:56:13 AM#62
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

 

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.


 

Well your post is completely flawed because the market base has expanded very significantly in the past 14 years. MMORPG is a shrinking market at this point, not a growing one compared to the overall gaming market. It is primarily because very little is coming out that is high quality.

To use a simple comparison. If a movie comes out today that grosses $500M it is considered a success but nothing special, that was the highest grossing film in 2000. The computer gaming industry has exploded over the past 14 years.

So where is your data to support it ? Because the only side that has ever posted anything says the opposite. Superdata is the only market study I've ever seen and it shows growth. I've seen lots of people say it's wrong but no one ever has posted another study to show it's wrong.

Right now it's random internet guy fact vrs a statistics company that says it works with most of the major game studios, and whom none of them have ever said they don't. If you can show this decline that doesn't involve cherry picked napkin math "data" I'd really like to see it.

  Jabas

Elite Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 1199

8/21/14 10:05:35 AM#63
Originally posted by Avanah
I think it's the quality of the community that is declining, not the games.

In some way yes.

And what about the shock of  diferent generations of gamers?

20 years ago was only 1 generation playing, nowdays its around 3 diferent ones with diferent ideas of gaming.

We see that every day in-games and forums.

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/21/14 11:05:03 AM#64


Originally posted by Viper482

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.
MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.



Sounds to me like you are completely misunderstanding what people mean by declining....a better word would be devolving. Funny you would agree that the direction they have taken sucks, yet you so passionately defend them here. 

If they said "devolving", I would have no trouble with that post. Instead *they* say "declining" or "dead" or some form of the word "fail".

I defend them because I may not be enjoying them presently, but many millions of players are enjoying them. I do not begrudge them their fun. In the same vein, I dislike Horror games. I'm not going to be an advocate of seeing Horror games go away, because a lot of people enjoy them.

I would like an MMO that I enjoy playing again. Just one would suit me fine. But I will not deny other player's enjoyment of them. I guess I'm not quite ready to give up all hope and just leave the whole genre behind me :)

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/21/14 11:07:20 AM#65


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Quirhid
I proposed a new section dedicated for such threads a while back.

The doom & gloom really does bring the quality of these forums down. Mods should definitely do something about it.



While we're at it can we have a separate section for "Sub Numbers & Quarterly Earnings".

While I'd like this, too, that would certainly make "The Pub" almost null and void :)

  Bigdaddyx

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 2047

8/21/14 11:08:45 AM#66
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Viper482

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

 

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.
MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.



Sounds to me like you are completely misunderstanding what people mean by declining....a better word would be devolving. Funny you would agree that the direction they have taken sucks, yet you so passionately defend them here. 

If they said "devolving", I would have no trouble with that post. Instead *they* say "declining" or "dead" or some form of the word "fail".

 

I defend them because I may not be enjoying them presently, but many millions of players are enjoying them. I do not begrudge them their fun. In the same vein, I dislike Horror games. I'm not going to be an advocate of seeing Horror games go away, because a lot of people enjoy them.

I would like an MMO that I enjoy playing again. Just one would suit me fine. But I will not deny other player's enjoyment of them. I guess I'm not quite ready to give up all hope and just leave the whole genre behind me :)

Please stop using logic. its too much!!!

If you dislike something it is not enough..you should always talks in 'we' and 'us' and make sure others stop having fun too.

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/21/14 11:15:49 AM#67


Originally posted by Ender4

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.



Well your post is completely flawed because the market base has expanded very significantly in the past 14 years. MMORPG is a shrinking market at this point, not a growing one compared to the overall gaming market. It is primarily because very little is coming out that is high quality.

To use a simple comparison. If a movie comes out today that grosses $500M it is considered a success but nothing special, that was the highest grossing film in 2000. The computer gaming industry has exploded over the past 14 years.



You need to stick with the same terms. *I* said "MMOs", meaning any Massively Multiplayer Online game. *You* said "MMORPG" which is a specific segment of MMOs.

In that case, I agree that "MMORPGs" are on the decline. Not many of the players today desire an RPG experience. They desire an FPS experience on a massive scale. "RPG" activities are considered boring by these new players.

All I'm saying is use the same terms in your arguments. Don't switch them up :)

  ace5572

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 115

8/21/14 11:18:56 AM#68
All i can read from this entire thread is: "Please stick your head in the sand with me! Stop talking about games on an internet forum meant for games!"
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16478

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/21/14 11:20:34 AM#69
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

 

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.


 

Well your post is completely flawed because the market base has expanded very significantly in the past 14 years. MMORPG is a shrinking market at this point, not a growing one compared to the overall gaming market. It is primarily because very little is coming out that is high quality.

To use a simple comparison. If a movie comes out today that grosses $500M it is considered a success but nothing special, that was the highest grossing film in 2000. The computer gaming industry has exploded over the past 14 years.

On what do you base your opinion of a shrinking market? There is actual statistical information to back up the OP's point, do you have any at all to back up yours, or do you simply base your opinion on reinforcement theories? Enough people say it so that makes it true?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16478

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/21/14 11:22:37 AM#70
Originally posted by ace5572
All i can read from this entire thread is: "Please stick your head in the sand with me! Stop talking about games on an internet forum meant for games!"

IN that case I'd reevaluate your ability to comprehend what others are saying.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/21/14 11:26:31 AM#71


Originally posted by Jabas

Originally posted by Avanah
I think it's the quality of the community that is declining, not the games.

In some way yes.

And what about the shock of  diferent generations of gamers?

20 years ago was only 1 generation playing, nowdays its around 3 diferent ones with diferent ideas of gaming.

We see that every day in-games and forums.



I agree with Avanah. The sense of community has definitely declined.

What you said is false. I was 38 when I first logged into EQ back in 2001. At that time, there kids (10-17), students (18-22), single adults (22-40), married couples (both men and women), and even grandparents (50+). Looks like 2 or 3 generations to me. I played EQ with my son, sometimes. There may have been a slight majority in one of the age groups, but I do not know what that may be.

You seem to be under the belief that everyone that played when MMOs first launched were in the same age group. That this age group all got older at the same time, and now there is a fluctuation in the age range that did not exist "way back when." That is a wrong assumption.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

8/21/14 11:31:50 AM#72
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Quirhid
I proposed a new section dedicated for such threads a while back.

 

The doom & gloom really does bring the quality of these forums down. Mods should definitely do something about it.



While we're at it can we have a separate section for "Sub Numbers & Quarterly Earnings".

While I'd like this, too, that would certainly make "The Pub" almost null and void :)

 

nah .. people can still flog the dead horses of FFA pvp, perma dead, sandbox vs themepark, and a thousand others in "The Pub".

  Jabas

Elite Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 1199

8/21/14 11:52:49 AM#73
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Jabas

Originally posted by Avanah
I think it's the quality of the community that is declining, not the games.


In some way yes.

 

And what about the shock of  diferent generations of gamers?

20 years ago was only 1 generation playing, nowdays its around 3 diferent ones with diferent ideas of gaming.

We see that every day in-games and forums.



I agree with Avanah. The sense of community has definitely declined.

 

What you said is false. I was 38 when I first logged into EQ back in 2001. At that time, there kids (10-17), students (18-22), single adults (22-40), married couples (both men and women), and even grandparents (50+). Looks like 2 or 3 generations to me. I played EQ with my son, sometimes. There may have been a slight majority in one of the age groups, but I do not know what that may be.

You seem to be under the belief that everyone that played when MMOs first launched were in the same age group. That this age group all got older at the same time, and now there is a fluctuation in the age range that did not exist "way back when." That is a wrong assumption.

Seems i didnt correct explain myself, and sorry about that because i have some dificults with english.

When i say "generation" its allways connected to "mmorpgs generation", not only based on ppl age.

20 years ago the ppl playing mmorpg, from 10yrs old to 80yrs or more i see it in the same mmorpg generation, meanwhile with time games create more diferent generations (gamers) and nowdays we have some "shocks" between diferent ways of thing about what a mmorpgs should be.

Hope this time i had explain my idea a little better  :) 

 

  Fingz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/26/14
Posts: 134

8/21/14 12:01:32 PM#74
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

 

Do we know the above is fact?  Are these North American players or worldwide?  Do they count Minecraft as an MMO?

Personally, I think the MMO industry will outlive all of us but I don't think it's growing.  I think it's shrinking.

 

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 4460

8/21/14 12:06:03 PM#75
It's not rocket science, every year more mmo's come out, very little mmo's shut down. Mmos need money to survive therefore every year more money has to come into the genre.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 2234

8/21/14 12:17:34 PM#76
Originally posted by Quirhid

I proposed a new section dedicated for such threads a while back.

The doom & gloom really does bring the quality of these forums down. Mods should definitely do something about it.

LOL.  So simple it's brilliant!  There really needs to be a subsection in the forum titled:

Doom & Gloom:  Use these forums to place your predictions and reasons on the decline of MMOs in general.

 

At the very least I wish the mods would lock all threads on this except for one since they are all pretty much the same topic.  That way all the sad pandas can have their own place to go like the disgruntled SWG Veteran Refuge.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 530

8/21/14 1:47:45 PM#77

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Ender4  

Originally posted by AlBQuirky After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"   The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline. MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago. MORE games are available than 14 years ago. MORE money is coming in every month than ever before. If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.
  Well your post is completely flawed because the market base has expanded very significantly in the past 14 years. MMORPG is a shrinking market at this point, not a growing one compared to the overall gaming market. It is primarily because very little is coming out that is high quality. To use a simple comparison. If a movie comes out today that grosses $500M it is considered a success but nothing special, that was the highest grossing film in 2000. The computer gaming industry has exploded over the past 14 years.
So where is your data to support it ? Because the only side that has ever posted anything says the opposite. Superdata is the only market study I've ever seen and it shows growth. I've seen lots of people say it's wrong but no one ever has posted another study to show it's wrong. Right now it's random internet guy fact vrs a statistics company that says it works with most of the major game studios, and whom none of them have ever said they don't. If you can show this decline that doesn't involve cherry picked napkin math "data" I'd really like to see it.

 

Well, according to ESA annual reports, the market share for the persistent, multiplayer universe genre did decline from 2012 to 2013.

In 2012, the genre held 14% of online gaming market share. Fast forward to 2013, and that share has decreased to 11%. That's a roughly 21% decrease (compared to itself) from 2012 to 2013. Looking at just that, and one might be justified in doomcalling.

But, hold up, things are never that simple. Someone might, without critically thinking, take the aforementioned numbers and assume the playerbase is also shrinking to match. However, that isn't necessarily (and is even unlikely to be) true. More realistically, the playerbase is either roughly stagnant or even growing at a rate that happens to be slower than the overall gaming market.

In the end, the argument could be made for a healthy genre or one showing signs of a near-future illness. Personally, I think the rise of casual/social games makes a strong case for the number one reason for a loss in online gaming market share. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem going forward the MMO market needs to address in order to keep pace with an online gaming market that's speeding by. 

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

8/21/14 2:26:05 PM#78
Originally posted by MadFrenchie

 


 

Well, according to ESA annual reports, the market share for the persistent, multiplayer universe genre did decline from 2012 to 2013.

In 2012, the genre held 14% of online gaming market share. Fast forward to 2013, and that share has decreased to 11%. That's a roughly 21% decrease (compared to itself) from 2012 to 2013. Looking at just that, and one might be justified in doomcalling.

But, hold up, things are never that simple. Someone might, without critically thinking, take the aforementioned numbers and assume the playerbase is also shrinking to match. However, that isn't necessarily (and is even unlikely to be) true. More realistically, the playerbase is either roughly stagnant or even growing at a rate that happens to be slower than the overall gaming market.

In the end, the argument could be made for a healthy genre or one showing signs of a near-future illness. Personally, I think the rise of casual/social games makes a strong case for the number one reason for a loss in online gaming market share. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem going forward the MMO market needs to address in order to keep pace with an online gaming market that's speeding by. 

Well first I think it's awesome you actually came with real numbers so +1 for that.

One question I have about them though is the casual games category. In 2012 it's 19% in 2013 it's 36%

That's a pretty alarming change for one year. I hardly think it doubled in 1 year when the % of gamers only went up 1% To me it implies they redid the categories and perhaps adjusted what games fit into what. Many of the game that were listed as persistent/action etc may have been moved to that category which would explain why they all fell and that one rose so quickly without a large change in the number of gamers.

Otherwise it's saying 17% of gamers made a switch in one year....that's pretty unstable.

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 530

8/21/14 2:35:17 PM#79
I think either you're right, or it reflects a tendency of gamers who played other games during that time picked up the casual/social game bug over that year as well.

Combine that with your assertion that they may have reconsidered the categories (with MOBAs and such becoming their own identifiable genre), and you get the rapid increase in casual/social gaming online.

I also agree it's an unstable increase and in no way sustainable. We'll see how far the push goes and if it overextends to the point of a reactive contraction in the future that sets that genre of online gaming back.


Like I said, I don't really feel the numbers are indicative of a present problem in MMOs. I think it does signify a rapidly changing and expanding market that basically presents this question to developers:

Do you want to try your hand at a piece of this new, expanding market by developing towards the casual/social gaming base (and/or combining more traditional gaming elements with it), or do you find it preferable to carve your niche into the existing market knowing you may draw none or only a small percentage of these new players??
  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 530

8/21/14 2:36:45 PM#80
That should be and/or in the opening statement.. Phone post. :/
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