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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why Group Content doesn't work for the majority of the player base

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416 posts found
  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 295

8/21/14 9:14:02 AM#341
Lizard, I think we're attempting an exercise in futility with the OP.

I do think, however, you're right about players seeking a more fluid experience. Single player and non-massively multiplayer (e.g. CoD, Battlefield, etc.) games have been streamlining their experiences for a lot longer than have MMOs, and are much better at it. This is due in no small part to the nature of their games (much more easily done with fewer players interacting). However, MMOs are still trying to play catch up on an issue they didn't face until much more recently than other genres: market saturation.

I not only hope and believe the market will see improvements in this area that become standard (LFD/LFG), but I also hope developers don't settle for standard and continue to improve the "intelligence" of such features to provide a deeper and more robust experience for the consumers.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/21/14 10:34:24 AM#342
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Lizard, I think we're attempting an exercise in futility with the OP.

I do think, however, you're right about players seeking a more fluid experience. Single player and non-massively multiplayer (e.g. CoD, Battlefield, etc.) games have been streamlining their experiences for a lot longer than have MMOs, and are much better at it. This is due in no small part to the nature of their games (much more easily done with fewer players interacting). However, MMOs are still trying to play catch up on an issue they didn't face until much more recently than other genres: market saturation.

I not only hope and believe the market will see improvements in this area that become standard (LFD/LFG), but I also hope developers don't settle for standard and continue to improve the "intelligence" of such features to provide a deeper and more robust experience for the consumers.

 

I think "Exercise in futility" describes a lot of forum discussions. :-)

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  d4rkwing

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/14
Posts: 17

8/21/14 10:51:30 AM#343

I basically agree with the OP, which is why I find games you can just get in and get out to be so nice. Most of my gaming time is spent on Team Fortress 2. You can join a server and play for a bit. The matches aren't too long (most are finished in less than 30 minutes). If you have to leave there's usually someone waiting for a spot or autobalance is enabled so you won't hurt your team too badly if you log out. GW2 was good for this reason with its WvW for multiplayer or questing and exploration if you just wanted to play solo.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

8/21/14 11:25:20 AM#344
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
is area that become standard (LFD/LFG), but I also hope developers don't settle for standard and continue to improve the "intelligence" of such features to provide a deeper and more robust experience for the consumers.

You don't have to hope.

Isn't Destiny's seamless matching way ahead of the standard LFD/LFG? It is a AAA+ effort, no less.

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 295

8/21/14 12:21:37 PM#345
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
is area that become standard (LFD/LFG), but I also hope developers don't settle for standard and continue to improve the "intelligence" of such features to provide a deeper and more robust experience for the consumers.

You don't have to hope.

Isn't Destiny's seamless matching way ahead of the standard LFD/LFG? It is a AAA+ effort, no less.

 

It is, specifically for that game. I was underwhelmed by the content in the beta, though. Run here, your little robot will do the hack work, you just shoot things standing there, then shoot things running back. Boss fights are a simple matter of hiding behind things when they attack and unloading when they aren't. Outrageously large health pools lengthen this process to a mind-numbing rinse and repeat for 10 minutes straight. Hopefully the beta was just very limitedlimited in terms of content in store.. Otherwise I see this game as an average seller at best (mostly carried by Bungie's name, the PS4 sales and lack of other options ATM). But back to your point: the system is an excellent type of innovation. Proximity voice chat would be the cherry on top (obviously optional).
  Atis-nob

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/12
Posts: 55

8/23/14 2:26:48 PM#346
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Atis-nob
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
It shouldn't be a fast track to success.. Anyone who's played with incompetent players will tell you it isn't. A single, integral player not doing they're job wrecks the progress of the entire group. This has nothing to do with the tendency of casual players to not want to wait for other players to organize. Because that's where solo optimization began. It wasn't because players bought a multiplayer game expecting to never interact with other players.

That'd make about as much sense as a guy buying Infamous and bitching because he can't invite his buddy into his gameworld.

The issue is that with more folks involved, the potential for disastrous results increases. This isn't an MMO-specific trait. In every endeavor, the more folks involved, the higher the chance of an overall failure.

I think your jadedness toward some posters who DO think grouping should be the holy grail has caused you to read more into my post than what was intended.

Grouping should provide a higher threshold for progression. Not because I want it that way, but because the risk of an overall failure falls to each player, individually...

Can you share examples of the dev-created content or player behavior that focuses on player competence?

I ask because the devs have been removing the player skill factor over time, primarily because players don't want it part of the equation in their MMOs. If players actually wanted that in their MMORPG (they actually do want it in some other genres), the   Puzzle Pirates progression system would probably be the norm. The 'challenge' of PUGs and group play isn't challenge for most. It's annoyance and frustration. You're heading into Ihmotep territory .

I'm not sure, with aiming and the telegraph system and active dodge and the move away from tab-targetting, where you're getting the idea that developers are moving away from incorporating player skill into MMOs.  

I was solely addressing your point regarding group content. Yes, there are more action RPGs and twitch gameplay. No one questions that. You brought up player skill, or lack thereof, is where the group experience has added challenge over single player. I was simply addressing the point you made. So, for your clarity on the matter:

Can you share examples of the dev-created content or player behaviour that focuses on player competence in the group experience for the express purpose of making it more challenging than the solo experience?

That's the nature of the beast, though: individual player skill challenge adds up exponentially for every person added to the group.  Maybe the tank makes a disastrous dodge roll into the bosses telegraph in Wildstar.  He goes down, not only does he fail and incur penalties; more than likely, his group is soon to follow.  Same for the healer.  Or maybe the DPS miss their skill shots.  The healer runs out of juice for the tank, the tank goes down, and the same wipe scenario occurs.  Using AoE CC against large group pulls?  CCer lays down a horrible CC, folks die.  And those folks need not fail in their roles whatsoever.  When you add folks, you do not simply add time and effort on the front end putting together the group.  You bring many variables that simply aren't there when soloing.  Higher risk, higher reward.

And the reason group content generally (and I argue justifiably) leads to faster or larger rewards is due to the above fact, added in with this little fact: when you login, unless you've coordinated outside of the game to meet at that particular time, you have no guarantee you can even participate in such group content.  This should be obvious: many proponents of solo play insist they can't be bothered with finding groups, or that it's too much of a hassle.  Indeed, it is becoming increasingly difficult to piece together such groups in today's MMOs.  Therefore, groupers may engage in solo play because it's simply the easiest type of gameplay to find.  It's always available, so long as the servers are up.  There is no delay, no preparation, no chance that you cannot login and simply go it alone.

So, for those groupers, you're adding variables the soloer doesn't have to deal with, you're frontloading time and effort the soloer doesn't, and you're not guaranteed you're playstyle's availability just because you've paid your $15.  You're contributing more to the game to experience content (or at least in experience it in a way) not made available to those who simply wish to login and have their gameplay style immediately 24/7, 365 days of the year.  Why, again, should there not be an increased reward threshold for participating in groups and/or group content?

Wow, you not only went deep into that territory, but you planted a flag and set up shop. 

I'm with Ceph and Veng. In my experience, adding more people and dividing up the work has proven to make mowing through mobs and completing content both easier and faster, requiring far less skill than attempting the same content solo. 

Only if game is balanced around soloers. Basically, you pick a fight, which supposed to be fair duel, and bring small zerg of thugs with you. ofc, zerging is easy. If game is balanced around group, soloer will have hard time even surviving near strong opponent and most likely will find someone weaker next time. Yes, maybe you wont see some content because of that, but in good game subscription buys you access to challenge, not assured victory. If anything in game can be beaten by one-handed imbecile, just cause he payed sub, that means you picked game for one-handed imbeciles. Dont be surprised if somebody laugh at you for playing it with your 2 hands and whole brain.

Exactly. If anything the solo player should get greater rewards because of the higher difficulty to complete the same task as the group. 

 

Getting all exp and loot for themselves, saving time of finding group, insurance from playing with idiots are their rewards. No need to treat them like a heroes.

  Edli

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/03/10
Posts: 886

8/23/14 2:31:48 PM#347
Seriously guys, you don't have to quote such a big chain. Just delete part of it and keep only the last part. Makes the discussion so hard to follow.
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  8/23/14 6:27:18 PM#348

Wow.. didn't expect this thread to still have discussion.

Sorry but a move to another country/city just kept me out of commission.

I'll copy-paste what I sent to a few folks who mailed me about this.

Normally (in the academic world), proof of a 'faulty' study isn't done by 'cause I say so' by XYZ. Which you'll see a lot on this forum, especially my thread. vOv

To prove a study is 'faulty' requires a study of its own. They generally have to be larger or better studies.

Notice how the US Census / Daedalous project studies are being attacked in this thread by the logic of 'cause I say so' and not of 'here's another study that proves the US census / Daedalous project is wrong'.

However, numbers are numbers and a study is a study. Whether you believe my interpretation of them or not is up to you. :)

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

8/23/14 10:29:55 PM#349
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
is area that become standard (LFD/LFG), but I also hope developers don't settle for standard and continue to improve the "intelligence" of such features to provide a deeper and more robust experience for the consumers.

You don't have to hope.

Isn't Destiny's seamless matching way ahead of the standard LFD/LFG? It is a AAA+ effort, no less.

 

It is, specifically for that game. I was underwhelmed by the content in the beta, though. Run here, your little robot will do the hack work, you just shoot things standing there, then shoot things running back. Boss fights are a simple matter of hiding behind things when they attack and unloading when they aren't. Outrageously large health pools lengthen this process to a mind-numbing rinse and repeat for 10 minutes straight. Hopefully the beta was just very limitedlimited in terms of content in store.. Otherwise I see this game as an average seller at best (mostly carried by Bungie's name, the PS4 sales and lack of other options ATM). But back to your point: the system is an excellent type of innovation. Proximity voice chat would be the cherry on top (obviously optional).

I haven't played the beta (cause i am waiting for the PC version) so I won't dispute your analysis of how good is the combat/gameplay (which i will reserve to judge it myself).

However, I heard that it has already broken a lot of pre-order record, isn't it true? I doubt it will only be a so-so seller, but i guess time will tell.

Lastly, didn't it have RPG elements, and "magic" type power? Didn't that help with the combat fun factor (which was done very well in games like Bioshock).

 

 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  8/29/14 8:13:36 PM#350

It has been a while and as the OP, I'll close this thread with; http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/features/g53fbe9cf1d67e/World-of-Warcraft-Then-Now-Next/

It is good when Tom Chilton (Game Director of WoW) validates your facts.

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Albatroes

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/14
Posts: 347

8/29/14 9:05:17 PM#351
Given all the OP said on the first page, maybe gamers just don't know what they want anymore. You have an older generation with more responsibilities and a newer generation that has too many choices to choose from. Couple that with companies trying to one-up each other in order to pull customers, just leaves chaos.
  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2360

8/29/14 9:12:13 PM#352
Originally posted by Albatroes
Given all the OP said on the first page, maybe gamers just don't know what they want anymore. You have an older generation with more responsibilities and a newer generation that has too many choices to choose from. Couple that with companies trying to one-up each other in order to pull customers, just leaves chaos.

Seems MMO's are in line for a crash scenario. Too many games, not enough quality ones. All I seem to hear about is "This games dying" "This game got bad reviews" "This games developers are"stepping down(canned)"

I don't know, maybe it will be a good thing in the end.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12294

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/29/14 10:41:42 PM#353
Originally posted by jpnz

Wow.. didn't expect this thread to still have discussion.

Sorry but a move to another country/city just kept me out of commission.

I'll copy-paste what I sent to a few folks who mailed me about this.

Normally (in the academic world), proof of a 'faulty' study isn't done by 'cause I say so' by XYZ. Which you'll see a lot on this forum, especially my thread. vOv

To prove a study is 'faulty' requires a study of its own. They generally have to be larger or better studies.

Notice how the US Census / Daedalous project studies are being attacked in this thread by the logic of 'cause I say so' and not of 'here's another study that proves the US census / Daedalous project is wrong'.

However, numbers are numbers and a study is a study. Whether you believe my interpretation of them or not is up to you. :)

And yet there will be many that read your post and snicker that you are naive to believe "studies" when all you have have to do is look around and see the truth right in front of you!

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  8/30/14 1:22:14 AM#354
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

And yet there will be many that read your post and snicker that you are naive to believe "studies" when all you have have to do is look around and see the truth right in front of you!

Proof? Scenario hypothesis? 

Ha! Who relies on them when the truth is out there!

Who needs Scully / Muldur?!

I'll show them the truth!!!

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

9/03/14 3:07:07 PM#355

@JPNZ,

There is no neccessity to engage in "study wars" when it can be demonstrated at face value that you were misapplying the studies you cited to draw conclusions about something they didn't actualy study.

The US Census studies the US population as a whole. One can use it with fair reliability to draw conclusions about that data pool as a whole but not neccesarly about any particular subgroup of that data pool nor about any groups that fall outside that data pool nor anything about that data pool it didn't actualy study.

So we can tell with relative confidence, lets say,  what percentage of the US population as whole within a certain age category have children because the Census actualy measures that......

However, we can't infer from that how many US Catholic priests within a certain age category have children because the Census didn't measure that....and even though US Catholic priests are part of the overall US Population (the data pool which the Census studies) we can't infer that the overall US population is representative of them for any given demographic. Nor would it tell us anything about Canadian or Mexican or French Catholic priests because they aren't part of the data pool the Census is capable of studying.

The same holds true for trying to use the Census to infer something about MMO Gamers... because the Census did not study that subgroup and we know nothing about how the US Population as a whole is representative of them. Let alone when you try to apply it to ALL MMO Gamers, since that includes a heckuva alot of people who are not part of the US population these days.

On Daedalus, it's data points would actualy contradict some of your conclusions (like showing that a relatively low percentage ...22 percent... of  players were parents). It also didn't study at all some of the things that would be important to your contentions...like the age of the respondents children. Most importantly, it is subject to the same sort of problems that all such surveys have... namely that self-selection and the impossability of verification introduces unkown biases that can't be accounted for and results in an unkown margin of error. Nick Yee, basicaly dismisses these on nothing more then his own opinion....even though all academic research points to just how unreliable self-selection and lack of verification can be. Just do a web search on "self-selection bias" if you think I'm talking out of my rear.

In short your contentions may or may not be correct. The studies you cite don't provide us much solid evidence to support (or disprove) those contention. What we are left with is your own anecdotal observation and we have no idea how representative that may really be.

It's cool if you are describing why something doesn't work for your situation and point out that it may not work for others in similar situations. However, you were trying to imply stronger data support for your contentions.... which really doesn't hold true.

Edit - Your understanding of how things work in Academic circles is a bit flawed. Burden of proof is always on the individual/team making the origional hypothesis. If an obvious flaw can be pointed out in thier methodology, no study is neccesary to demonstrate that flaw, it is up to the author of the hypothesis to demonstrate how that flaw does not exist or is accounted for in thier test.

If you claim that Bigfoot exists because of the number of times you heard screams in the woods. I don't need to go out and do a competeing study to demonstrate that Bigfoot doesn't exist. Nor do I need to go out and do a study demonstrating what scream you claim you heard really was.... I just need to point out the obvious flaw in your methodology that you've provided no way to eliminate any other source that those screams could be attributed to.

  Dr_Shivinski

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 205

9/03/14 3:23:21 PM#356
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@JPNZ,

 

Hot damn! Laying down the truth Grumpy.

Honestly though JPNZ, we grew up and acquired responsibilities and time constraints. Newer MMOs have attempted to cater to our "needs", but lets face facts here. Every MMO that has tried catering to our busy lives has been sub par. 

MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds to adventure in, and instead they have become bite size content games that just don't stack up to the classics. The genre needs to return to it's roots even if it means leaving people like you and I behind. Later when we retire and have the time again we can dive back into those awesome virtual worlds, but for now it's not fair of us to let these companies destroy the genre for our "convenience".

Here Siggy Siggy!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

9/03/14 5:25:43 PM#357
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds to adventure in, and instead they have become bite size content games that just don't stack up to the classics.

nah .. the classics are much worse "game" for me.

I would much prefer bit-size content than virtual worlds. And i doubt MMOs are "supposed" to be anything. If so, LFD wouldn't be so popular. They are just entertainment products evolving to suit the marketplace, no more and no less .. to me.

 

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 295

9/05/14 2:42:58 PM#358
@narius,

It does, but as far as I could tell, there were only a few, one "ultimate" and a few that provide temporary buffs or upgrade normal FPS things (I.e. melee attack). That was underwhelming.

It is a multiplatform FPS coming from Bungie, so I am not surprised at the pre-orders. It will be a quality game. Game changing? Maybe. Didn't seem so much so in beta. Polished? Most certainly. And pretty.
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  9/05/14 3:58:52 PM#359
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@JPNZ,

 

Since it isn't filled with many 'facts', lets break it down!

There is no neccessity to engage in "study wars" 

The above is factually false - at least from an academic stand point. The fundamentals can't be ignore and technically, even if we dismiss something, it is with the underlying certainty (not assumption / belief) that there is a larger / better study that disapproves it.

 

US Census studies

So if we have a media that is consumed by a certain demographic, it is not correct to use the population census to find out the characteristics of them? And we're not even talking about a small sample of 'less than 1 million' here. 

 

 Daedalus

As the above states, if you have a larger / better study, then by all means share it with us.

 

Your understanding of how things work in Academic circles is a bit flawed. 

Oh? You mean to say that a larger / better study isn't required to disapprove a study? Is that what you are saying? Really?

My area was chemistry and I know the physics guys had their own 'quirks' but I have never seen a paper dismissed on '~my reasons~'.

 

I would like to point out and be smug that ultimately, the person with the data (Tom Chilton of WoW) confirmed my OP 

http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/features/g53fbe9cf1d67e/World-of-Warcraft-Then-Now-Next/

'MMO players grew up, deal with it.'. vOv

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

9/05/14 11:55:43 PM#360
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
@narius,

It does, but as far as I could tell, there were only a few, one "ultimate" and a few that provide temporary buffs or upgrade normal FPS things (I.e. melee attack). That was underwhelming.

It is a multiplatform FPS coming from Bungie, so I am not surprised at the pre-orders. It will be a quality game. Game changing? Maybe. Didn't seem so much so in beta. Polished? Most certainly. And pretty.

 

How about stories? Does it have good, well polished, well scripted stories?

If you look at a fun game like Wolfenstein, you do almost nothing but shoot, shoot and shoot. But it is still fun (at least for me) because of the setting, characters and stories. Now the gameplay is certainly not as fun as something like Dishonored, but combat mechanics do not have to have 10 thousand different things to be fun.

I think the best comparison (for Destiny) is Borderland 1 & 2. How does the combat mechanics compare to BL?

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