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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is there too much focus on "End Game"?

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77 posts found
  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 2103

8/20/14 6:20:45 PM#61
To OP, problem are more PLAYERS then developers. No matter how much time developers put into incredible questing, a lot of players just rush to end to do ... WHAT??? Same dungeons over and over and over again? On the other side I'm kind of player that love questing. With all my alts. And only then I will consider engaging "end game".
  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2124

8/20/14 6:41:29 PM#62

End game is what happens when the content of the original game the developers wanted to make runs out of content. Basically it means the core game failed. Very few mmos have truly made a consistent product from character creation through "end game". 

 

The big issue with mmos based on a world's surface is content designed for leveling becoming obsolete and further content becomes nothing but a repeating grind. It all means the game concept ran out and a "fix" is put in place. It is how raiding style end game first developed. It wasn't by design. It was my necessity ... and players drank the kool-aid and accepted a 100% deviation from the game's original design concept.

 

Traditional mmos will always run into this problem until content is truly dynamic and their worlds are truly massive where exploration is effectively eternal. Luckily this tech exists and is slowly working toward gaming. Future mmos will be about logging into a game where traveling across it's entire map takes DAYS ... not minutes or even hours. Large map rendering is the future but no amount of designers can fill such large map spaces. They must develop truly powerful dynamic content creation as well. In this case EQNext is headed in the right direction but will only be a small test platform compared to what future mmos will be like.

 

Asheron's Call way back in the day sort of tried this. You could run off in any direction without zone loading and simply explore ... and run into things so powerful they one shot you. This is how mmos must be eventually. With massive map rendering you can have a game that effectively never runs out of content. Even if your character is "max level" and top geared there could always be things much more powerful than you somewhere you have not explored. How powerful players become could simply be tied into so called sandbox elements of societal progression and not hard capped by developers ... yet dynamic pve content always potentially stronger because such large map spaces could never be fully controlled by players (much the same way much of our planet Earth still is wide open expanses despite thousands of years of human social growth).

 

Put simply mmo end game must be resolved by the game's original design.  There simply shouldn't be a need to even use the term "end game". Yes this means sandbox but so entirely seamless and massive that it all simply appears endless ... within the restraints of human mortality that is. This is why space based sandbox games work so well. Space is eternal from our perspective (and also VERY empty which is why developers love it) ... there is always something new to find. This must be emulated in ground based games as well. Basically entire planets to explore must be made.

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  Fingz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/14
Posts: 136

8/20/14 6:51:10 PM#63

Yeah, I like to progress.  I either want to level up or go through item progression via raiding.  Thinking about it, item progression and level progression different systems that do the same thing.  They give the player a sense of progression.

 

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 5250

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

8/20/14 6:55:22 PM#64
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bladestrom
It's called immersion and role play.

If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.

then you're missing the point of immersion and RP so it's not something you can understand. 

  Juice2000

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/13
Posts: 94

8/20/14 7:19:42 PM#65

I dont know about these other games but FF14 has not only retained its player base but has increased it. I had to queue 3 times over the weekend to log onto my server and the amount of green leafed players (those with under 40h played)is quite alot.

I do feel the main reason for this is the large variety of things to do. At 50 you have a dozen things to do if you choose to partake in them. Every day i play i accomplish about 50% of the activities i would like to. Of course if raiding is your only thing then the game will grow stale fast i imagine. 

  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 2009

8/20/14 9:13:44 PM#66

I think for games with short leveling experienced, you pretty much have to focus on the end game.

If its a game with long leveling curve, or a game with no end game system(the whole game is the end game), you dont' need to worry about it.

I dont' think wildstar being end game focus is what cause the huge population drop.  Nowaday, many people just buy game to try.  The reality is no game have great retention rate.  Even for older game, the retention rate isn't good, the only reason very few games were able to sustain is they gain new players at the rate they loss old players.

  sethman75

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/13
Posts: 215

8/20/14 11:34:58 PM#67

I feel it's a pacing problem.

You level from 1 - 100 at a steady and enjoyable pace and then you hit cap and the game stops being enjoyable and becomes a job.

EQ and WoW took a very long time to reach level cap because it had consistant pacing from the start and people adapted to that with a goal in mind.

Another problem i have with end game is that it is run a dungeon in the hope of a low percentage drop, rinse , repeat for 12 months.

That is not fun or enjoyable game play and players are sick of that.

 

  csthao

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/07/06
Posts: 1120

8/21/14 12:02:26 AM#68
Originally posted by sethman75

I feel it's a pacing problem.

You level from 1 - 100 at a steady and enjoyable pace and then you hit cap and the game stops being enjoyable and becomes a job.

EQ and WoW took a very long time to reach level cap because it had consistant pacing from the start and people adapted to that with a goal in mind.

Another problem i have with end game is that it is run a dungeon in the hope of a low percentage drop, rinse , repeat for 12 months.

That is not fun or enjoyable game play and players are sick of that.

 

I agree with the OP. There is a lot of focus and emphasis on the end game. The problem with this is that everyone is after the SAME gear. People are so focused on getting the same gear from dungeon runs and raiding. And what I highlighted in yellow from above. You do the same run over and over again just to get the gear that EVERYONE has.

That's the problem. You grind for the very same stuff until you're done. Now the reason why OLD Ultima Online and Diablo 1 and 2 was so fun was that, you can grind and grind and farm. But the big difference was ALL items have randomize stats and there is no end game. It makes a game that much funner and more enjoyable to play. You can have a "longsword" as anyone else, but the stats can be completely different. But then anyone can still beat anyone PvP wise. It all just came down to how you play your character.

Get rid of end game, make all items/gear totally randomized. That's not saying that they shouldn't go out and do dungeon runs. Its just saying they shouldn't have to have a big bad ass boss at the end of the dungeon. Go out there kill stuff and have fun with people. Hell all they need to do is have some quests to lead people to dungeons or even raids. But that's it, it doesn't have to have a super long storyline as to what's at the end of it. Any game like this is something I'd love to play.

  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 2009

8/21/14 12:36:19 AM#69

I don't felt vanilla wow take all that long to reach the level cap.  I'm not sure why people keep saying that.  Eventhough I'm an addicted gamer, so it could shorter for me.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 3588

8/21/14 3:10:06 AM#70
EQ had a small population to begin with and there wasn't much competition back in the day. The only game which has retained its subscribers is wow.

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  Dzone

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/12
Posts: 335

8/21/14 8:09:19 AM#71


FFXI is like 11 years old now and still going. I remember playing that game way back in 2003 for over 12 months strait before I reached my first level 75 (cap) with my whm. Even when I got to cap I barely did any end game. I pretty much just farmed, camped nm's, fished, did merit parties quit a bit, and skilled up. Oh also got into making prism powders with alchemy just to support the market on um. Peaple used those a lot, that and sneak oils.

 

I did do znm's for a few months with a linkshell. Did windurst dynamis 2 times. Other than that I didn't really toch end game stuff in that game. Played it for like around 3 years till my computer broke and took over a month to fix it. By then I moved on. now kinda wish I didn't, but I can't see myself getting back into that game after all these years now.

 

Man how I miss those days.

 

FFXIV it took me little over a month to reach cap.. Yep end game focus is very heavily focused on ffxiv arr. I swear 90 percent of the people I click on says lvl 50. Althogh I do see a few new players, but caped people clearly out numbers those. Plus everything they add in that game is for cap players with each expantian.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

8/21/14 8:44:16 AM#72
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bladestrom
It's called immersion and role play.

If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.

then you're missing the point of immersion and RP so it's not something you can understand. 

If they have to involve repeating the same wagon ride for 30 times, gladly. May be you need to look at fun, rather than immersion. It is way over-rated, particularly if the game requires the player to participate in repeated, boring activities in the name of "realism".

 

  GeezerGamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5675

 
OP  8/21/14 2:34:14 PM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bladestrom
It's called immersion and role play.

If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.

then you're missing the point of immersion and RP so it's not something you can understand. 

If they have to involve repeating the same wagon ride for 30 times, gladly. May be you need to look at fun, rather than immersion. It is way over-rated, particularly if the game requires the player to participate in repeated, boring activities in the name of "realism".

 

I've repeated the wagon ride a few times. But I'll also admit to re-using the "Prisoner" save. It all depends on my mood at the time I decide to spawn off a new play-through....which I'll generally do on an instant whim, typically while I am already in one play-through and/or I discover a cool new I want to try.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 4835

8/21/14 3:13:52 PM#74
same ^^ down to mood. Re fun v immersion comment, that makes no sense, people immerse because they get pleasure out of it, done people don't, it's not overrated because you generally don't rate how engaged you are in a game, e.g I don't say, ooh in 23.4% needed in a game.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3921

8/21/14 4:57:05 PM#75

     Personally..  I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding..  Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR"..  And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt..  If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have.. 

     I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time..  I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked..  Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart?   I don't know..

  GeezerGamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5675

 
OP  8/21/14 6:33:50 PM#76
Originally posted by Rydeson

     Personally..  I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding..  Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR"..  And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt..  If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have.. 

     I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time..  I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked..  Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart?   I don't know..

I'm not so sure it's all about fun factor. I think there needs to be more than fun factor alone. GW2 focused on that, and while it didn't entirely fail, I don't think it entirely succeeded either.

Players need a reason to log in. Something to motivate them, to drive them. It doesn't always have to be fun, but I think it does always have to lead to a reward or an accomplishment of some kind. There needs to be some work and effort to enhance the fun. Make it more valuable.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3921

8/22/14 3:07:19 AM#77
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Rydeson

     Personally..  I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding..  Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR"..  And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt..  If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have.. 

     I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time..  I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked..  Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart?   I don't know..

I'm not so sure it's all about fun factor. I think there needs to be more than fun factor alone. GW2 focused on that, and while it didn't entirely fail, I don't think it entirely succeeded either.

Players need a reason to log in. Something to motivate them, to drive them. It doesn't always have to be fun, but I think it does always have to lead to a reward or an accomplishment of some kind. There needs to be some work and effort to enhance the fun. Make it more valuable.

      I agree totally.  Sorry I failed to mention that as well..   Not only does it need to be a variety of fun, but there needs to be a purpose..  Actually.. MULTIPLE purposes as well..  It has to be more then just repeating the same instance dungeon so that you can earn that brand new piece of armor after 40 times..  However, I do love things that WoW semi touched on, and what WoT does as well..  I had always thought it would be great to have a game where the fun is more about horizontal progression then vertical, similar to WoT awarding medals and ribbons..  WoW's achievement system doesn't quite fill that need.. It's missing something to make it meaningful.. 

     OH. I think EQ1's AA system is a step in the right direction too..  Hundreds and thousands of minor buffs and abilities earned through XP.. 

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