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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why "MMO's" are in a steady decline.

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168 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17238

8/20/14 1:57:51 PM#41
Originally posted by Clerigo

OP:

couldnt had said it better myself. Im there with you.

This new crowd of less-demanding players are eating everything that gets thrown at them, and they dont know how to put the words "epic" and "fantasy" in the same sentence.

Its more or less the same crowd that puts the latest transformer movie past the 1 billion mark in earnings. They just want flashy cosmetics and pretty lights and everything is ok to them. (no offense)

I, since the days of Vanilla WoW, have bought game after game after game hoping to find something magical again, but the only thing i get is disappoinment and a few laughs...not good laughs, more like madman laughs.

So, do like me, step aside and let this new train roll, it will eventually crash and ill have some good laughs when i hear the news, while shooting some pool with my friends.

Best game i have found since i left WoW: Real Life. Its crazy.

You are trying to equate people who put "transformers movies past the one billion dollar mark" as somehow being lesser than you the video game player?

I certainly hope you can appreciate the irony.

Or to put it another way, there are people who look down upon "you the video game player" and put you as  being the same level as what you just tried to categorize those "Transformer movie fans"

Also, there are people who would say that "Vanilla WoW" is every bit the trash they believe it to be over say Shadowbane, Ultima Online and Lineage 2.

 

  Gabiru

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/05
Posts: 56

8/20/14 2:18:33 PM#42
Originally posted by Sovrath

Also, there are people who would say that "Vanilla WoW" is every bit the trash they believe it to be over say Shadowbane, Ultima Online and Lineage 2.

 

I'm one of those, Ultima Online lasted for a long time, Lineage2 for about 5 years, Wow only one week. Still play Lineage2 once in a while on private servers, there isn't any better yet. My vote on the mmorpg goes to play2win.

It's a good thing that we are all different thou

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19822

8/20/14 2:23:43 PM#43
Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by iridescence

The thing is to have gameplay mechanisms in place to punish and discourage griefing whilst allowing most other playstyles to flourish.

 

Why bother? Just have different game modes. Those who don't want griefing and choose a mode (pve-only for example) where griefing is not possible.

 

Problem is now you are making two games really instead of just one and something will suffer.

Suffer a lot less than trying to mesh two incompatible game mode together. Or if resource is an issue, cut one of the two. It is not mandatory to have both game modes in a single game.

 

  Bigdaddyx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1590

8/20/14 2:24:06 PM#44
I think moderators should make a sticky on general forums where people can talk about 'decline', 'death' and other doom and gloom in relation to MMOS. That would be much better option than getting rehashed topics atleast 2 to 3 times every week.
  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1889

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

8/20/14 2:31:15 PM#45

people claim mmos are dieing for nearly 8 years now

gets kinda boring ^^

 

 

YOU not likeing sth does not mean the rest of the world thinks the same, bout time you guys understand that

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  Pepeq

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/14
Posts: 483

8/20/14 2:31:44 PM#46
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
I think moderators should make a sticky on general forums where people can talk about 'decline', 'death' and other doom and gloom in relation to MMOS. That would be much better option than getting rehashed topics atleast 2 to 3 times every week.

That would assume people bothered to read the previous threads on the subject before posting their own.  Based on the repetitive nature of the posts, the resounding conclusion would be, no, no one really reads the previous threads, just bits and pieces of it... which of course deserve a rebuttal in the form of a new thread.

 

Cycle repeats itself.  I liken it to collect X quests in MMORPGs... people seem to hate them but can't help but do them all the same.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16715

8/20/14 3:02:54 PM#47

MMOs need to find new ideas, not really remaking UO or SWG over and over no matter how fun those games were once. People have tried several times and it never really gets past a small niche game.

Those games did have risk versus reward better than most modern games though but you can get that with new ideas as well.

I think devs should start from the beginning altogether instead. Take a good pen and paper RPG like Shadowrun and think about how you can turn the experience playing it into an online game. Forget about EQ, UO and Wow and try to instead think about how the pnp games mechanics could be turned into a MMO.

Let players run CORPs, Shadowrun teams, Streetgangs, smuggling operations, security teams that keeps the law and similar "guilds" and let them compete over resources, research, sabotage and even have wars between them (hidden for corps while streetgangs would do it more openly).

And that is just one example, I could see a great Call of Chthulhu/Delta green MMO or a historical MMO where players take sides in the 30 year wars and fight for territory. The only limitations is what is fun and many things would be.

MMOs should move forward, not backwards but for that to happen we actually need new ideas. Remaking a game that have already been done many times might give you some cash but not that much compare to something new (unless you make it a lot better) and every time someone does a very similar games the less will the income be.

It is sad that WoDO was canceled but there is at least class 4 that will do this. More companies than Microsoft/Undead labs should give it a try.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19822

8/20/14 4:26:47 PM#48
Originally posted by Loke666

I think devs should start from the beginning altogether instead. Take a good pen and paper RPG like Shadowrun and think about how you can turn the experience playing it into an online game. Forget about EQ, UO and Wow and try to instead think about how the pnp games mechanics could be turned into a MMO.

nah .. if i want a good pnp RPG experience, i will play one.

Computer games should be different. I don't play a computer game for a pnp experience.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12298

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/20/14 9:06:15 PM#49
Originally posted by Loke666

MMOs need to find new ideas, not really remaking UO or SWG over and over no matter how fun those games were once. 

And they are. Some examples are:

  • Everquest Next
  • Wildstar
  • Defiance
  • Trove
  • Age of Wushu
  • Pirate 101
  • The Secret World 
  • Guild Wars 2
  • Dragon's Prophet

 

Those are just more of the same, right? Ok, how about...

  • Vindictus
  • APB: Reloaded
  • WorldAlpha
  • Path of Exile
  • Firefall
  • Die2Nite
  • the PBBGs (ex: Evony, Grepolis, Travian, Ikarian, EmpireCraft)
  • the MOBAs (ex: Bloodline Champions, SMITE, LoL, Nosgoth)
  • the Online TCGs (ex: Hex, SolForge, Legends of Norrath, Hearthstone)

 

Those aren't MMO, right? 

 

See the vicious circle we have here? 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Javelin007

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/14
Posts: 13

 
OP  8/20/14 10:46:53 PM#50

So first, I want to thank everyone whose participating in this discussion. Whether you agree with my point of view or not I appreciate the time spent to voice opinions.

 

I am bad, I did use a pretty typical hook to get peoples attention.

 

The main issue I think I have with mmo's currently is the lack of innovation. For instance guild wars 2, one of their big innovative ideas was that your actions would effect the world. The way this would happen is through scripted events. Basically every so often AI would overrun a town until they were pushed out by players effectively resetting a timer before it would happen again.

 

So while this at first gives the appearance that you did something, 10 minutes later it's happened again. Endless monotony. 

 

This is unavoidable in themepark mmos where the only content available is the content provided by game designers.

 

I think players should be given the tools to control and effect the world they exist in. This is the main thing I'd like to know if any of you agree with or not.

 

Does this mean there is a potential for griefing, sure it does if you model it after any other mmo ever made but I think if you approach it outside the box of stereotypical systems you can at the very least lessen the foul taste this usually leaves in casual players mouths.

 

How? Here's my example. One of the biggest issues I feel people have in games with freedom of combat (essentially pvp) is getting griefed. Griefing usually is associated with being involved unwillingly in an unfair fight, though you could argue that being involved in a fight at all that you didn't want could be considered getting greifed.

 

Let's say that instead of looting someones valuables you could obtain tokens for participating in pvp, only it would work like this.

Situation 1 (non grief)

1 player vs 1 other player. Both are equal skill level, player A wins and is awarded 3 tokens, player B dies but is awarded 2 tokens for gaining "combat experience".

Tokens are universal and used to purchase really nice gear.

Are you still upset that you died?

Situation 2.

5 guys steamroll 1 dude (grief)

All 5 are awarded 0 tokens as the kill is considered unchallenging, player who died is awarded 1 token for attempting to take out 5 dudes at once, though should he manage to kill anyone during said fight see example one, 3 tokens for each kill.

 

Obviously this system would need to be polished as it's just a seed of an idea.

The point is I am curious if you guys have any thoughts on how you would do things differently.

So I ask of all of you:

What is that one thing you really hate about an mmo of your choice? What would you do to solve it?

Do you hate how crafting is usually done? Do you hate how pvp is often done? Do you hate how levels or skill systems are done? What would you change?

I mean even if you love a particular mmo I would guess there is something you wish was done differently?

 

 

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 796

8/20/14 11:09:34 PM#51

Well, your first example of 1 vs 1 is flawed IMO.   Essentially you are giving tokens for failure.  Many people will have issue with this.   One extra token for winning?   All the other guy has to do is lose more than the other guy wins and he comes out ahead.  And we all know how hard losing is.

 

Example 2 is a bit more punishing for the badguys.   However I would have to ask, just how does the game determine a fair fight?  It might be possible via levels but there could be gear and weapons involved too.   What if you thought you were going against a fair opponent and the game determined it to be unfair in the other persons favor?  Would you have the opportunity to decline the fight or would you just accept the punishment?  People might be deterred from fighting in some cases.

 

And as for asking what I would wish changed in a game that I play,  my answer is that I don't look at things that way.  A game, like anything, is what it is.  Either you like it or you don't, or something in between.   But why change it?  You may not like something and someone else might think that is just perfect.   Now the game is better for you and worse for someone else.   The best example I have of that is Voyage Century.   That was a wonderful explore / craft game where crafting and levels had meaning.  Then Snail games went and butchered it to pieces with patch after patch that basically gave everyone level 20 gear at level 1.  They turned an amazing and intersting game into a faceroll.   The game was perfect as it was and somehow they got the crazy idea they were improving it for players.  Some maybe. Most no.

 

So I say quit worrying about how you think things should be and accept games for what they are. Make the most of what they offer.   And if the devs change something and it sucks, well move on.  If they make something better, let them know you like it.  Simple as that.

 

But al this wishing for "oh if only they made a game like this"  is really just wasted effort IMO.  Its not going to change anything and in the end only makes you more frustrated.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Javelin007

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/14
Posts: 13

 
OP  8/20/14 11:29:21 PM#52
Originally posted by Boneserino

Well, your first example of 1 vs 1 is flawed IMO.   Essentially you are giving tokens for failure.  Many people will have issue with this.   One extra token for winning?   All the other guy has to do is lose more than the other guy wins and he comes out ahead.  And we all know how hard losing is.

 

Example 2 is a bit more punishing for the badguys.   However I would have to ask, just how does the game determine a fair fight?  It might be possible via levels but there could be gear and weapons involved too.   What if you thought you were going against a fair opponent and the game determined it to be unfair in the other persons favor?  Would you have the opportunity to decline the fight or would you just accept the punishment?  People might be deterred from fighting in some cases.

 

And as for asking what I would wish changed in a game that I play,  my answer is that I don't look at things that way.  A game, like anything, is what it is.  Either you like it or you don't, or something in between.   But why change it?  You may not like something and someone else might think that is just perfect.   Now the game is better for you and worse for someone else.   The best example I have of that is Voyage Century.   That was a wonderful explore / craft game where crafting and levels had meaning.  Then Snail games went and butchered it to pieces with patch after patch that basically gave everyone level 20 gear at level 1.  They turned an amazing and intersting game into a faceroll.   The game was perfect as it was and somehow they got the crazy idea they were improving it for players.  Some maybe. Most no.

 

So I say quit worrying about how you think things should be and accept games for what they are. Make the most of what they offer.   And if the devs change something and it sucks, well move on.  If they make something better, let them know you like it.  Simple as that.

 

But al this wishing for "oh if only they made a game like this"  is really just wasted effort IMO.  Its not going to change anything and in the end only makes you more frustrated.

It's just one idea and may not be the answer that works because everything that sounds good doesn't always work in practice.

 

If I was just a gamer I might agree with you, the problem is that I'm also a dev. So when you say the dev's should make something better, well I'm in that pool.

 

The goal I'd like to achieve at some point is making combat fun, at a core within an mmo setting. The issue is how do you do that? How do you bridge the gap between sandbox and themepark to create something new? How do you encourage people to try pvp who don't normally participate in pvp because they aren't good at it (because they haven't done it enough just like you're not good at basketball if you never played) or because they feel like they get griefed or what have you.

 

It's hard to make a world feel alive if you put handcuffs on the players, I am interested in breaking those handcuffs in a way that doesn't feel penalizing.

 

This might actually be impossible, though I am pretty optimistic that it can be done.

 

 

 

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 796

8/21/14 12:17:56 AM#53
Originally posted by Javelin007

 

It's just one idea and may not be the answer that works because everything that sounds good doesn't always work in practice.

 

If I was just a gamer I might agree with you, the problem is that I'm also a dev. So when you say the dev's should make something better, well I'm in that pool.

 

The goal I'd like to achieve at some point is making combat fun, at a core within an mmo setting. The issue is how do you do that? How do you bridge the gap between sandbox and themepark to create something new? How do you encourage people to try pvp who don't normally participate in pvp because they aren't good at it (because they haven't done it enough just like you're not good at basketball if you never played) or because they feel like they get griefed or what have you.

 

It's hard to make a world feel alive if you put handcuffs on the players, I am interested in breaking those handcuffs in a way that doesn't feel penalizing.

 

This might actually be impossible, though I am pretty optimistic that it can be done.

 

 

 

I pretty firmly believe that the highlighted area is pretty much impossible.     The analogy is more like:  I don't like to eat spinach and nothing you can do is going to change that fact.

 

I learned early on, by playing the old Age of Empires,  that in PvP I was terrible.   I studied that game and learned all the openings, and strengths of the different units  etc.   I wanted to be good at it, I really did.   But sadly I had to accept that I never would be.  I watched my son play one time and I was amazed at how much faster he was at micromanaging.   And then there was the fact that when I got into pressure situations my brain would just shutdown.  I could not think of the right response.   And at the end of the day it was frustrating and just not fun.    However I could play against the computer on the right settings and win and have a blast.   It was then I had to admit that my skills as a competitive gamer were never going to be good enough

 

So you might get people to try your PvP and some might even enjoy it.  But if you think that you can convert gamers who are not true PvP players and don't have and never will have the skills to compete in it, then I think you are mistaken.

 

I mean it would be like putting the Yankees baseball team in hockey uniforms and having them play the Rangers.  Or vice versa.   It just doesn't work anyway you cut it.  

 

IMO

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1529

8/21/14 12:23:41 AM#54

Yawn, another "Back in my day son we had no quests" thread.  

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  Javelin007

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/14
Posts: 13

 
OP  8/21/14 12:52:49 AM#55
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by Javelin007

 

It's just one idea and may not be the answer that works because everything that sounds good doesn't always work in practice.

 

If I was just a gamer I might agree with you, the problem is that I'm also a dev. So when you say the dev's should make something better, well I'm in that pool.

 

The goal I'd like to achieve at some point is making combat fun, at a core within an mmo setting. The issue is how do you do that? How do you bridge the gap between sandbox and themepark to create something new? How do you encourage people to try pvp who don't normally participate in pvp because they aren't good at it (because they haven't done it enough just like you're not good at basketball if you never played) or because they feel like they get griefed or what have you.

 

It's hard to make a world feel alive if you put handcuffs on the players, I am interested in breaking those handcuffs in a way that doesn't feel penalizing.

 

This might actually be impossible, though I am pretty optimistic that it can be done.

 

 

 

I pretty firmly believe that the highlighted area is pretty much impossible.     The analogy is more like:  I don't like to eat spinach and nothing you can do is going to change that fact.

 

I learned early on, by playing the old Age of Empires,  that in PvP I was terrible.   I studied that game and learned all the openings, and strengths of the different units  etc.   I wanted to be good at it, I really did.   But sadly I had to accept that I never would be.  I watched my son play one time and I was amazed at how much faster he was at micromanaging.   And then there was the fact that when I got into pressure situations my brain would just shutdown.  I could not think of the right response.   And at the end of the day it was frustrating and just not fun.    However I could play against the computer on the right settings and win and have a blast.   It was then I had to admit that my skills as a competitive gamer were never going to be good enough

 

So you might get people to try your PvP and some might even enjoy it.  But if you think that you can convert gamers who are not true PvP players and don't have and never will have the skills to compete in it, then I think you are mistaken.

 

I mean it would be like putting the Yankees baseball team in hockey uniforms and having them play the Rangers.  Or vice versa.   It just doesn't work anyway you cut it.  

 

IMO

You make a valid point. It may just be that the type of people that enjoy the challenge pvp awards will just always be the minority in the gaming community.

 

Which is sad imo because the strongest memorable moments I've had from many years as a gamer always involved turning the tides in what first appeared a hopeless situation. Usually outnumbered situations.

 

It would be nice to share those types of experiences with people who may not know what it's like.

 

Hell I can think of one off the top of my head from when I played Mortal Online, back when it relied more on player skill than numbers (they've since changed the stamina system so that you physically don't have enough stamina to fight more than one or two people at once). A guild mate and I ran across a group of approximately 8 pk's. We didn't have horses at the time, they did. We managed to get on top of some rocks that only had one way to get up onto them. They were forced to come up 1 and 2 at a time, they all died. We were able to use terrain to our advantage to even the odds and simply out played them. 

 

There were also plenty of situations where we died but those moments aren't the ones that stick in memory for long.

  Gestankfaust

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 1116

Very well. If you will not stop trolling threads, then I shall say.....NI!!

8/21/14 12:59:32 AM#56
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Yawn, another "Back in my day son we had no quests" thread.  

^This... or insert any other line of the s called "Old School" rants.

 

Problem is I  see right through most of the "Old School" crap as being CRAP!. Made up memories of days gone by. You weren't there. Just using that excuse to argue what's wrong.

 

OP's whole post shows that.

"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 796

8/21/14 1:20:58 AM#57
Originally posted by Javelin007
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by Javelin007

 

 

You make a valid point. It may just be that the type of people that enjoy the challenge pvp awards will just always be the minority in the gaming community.

 

Which is sad imo because the strongest memorable moments I've had from many years as a gamer always involved turning the tides in what first appeared a hopeless situation. Usually outnumbered situations.

 

It would be nice to share those types of experiences with people who may not know what it's like.

 

Hell I can think of one off the top of my head from when I played Mortal Online, back when it relied more on player skill than numbers (they've since changed the stamina system so that you physically don't have enough stamina to fight more than one or two people at once). A guild mate and I ran across a group of approximately 8 pk's. We didn't have horses at the time, they did. We managed to get on top of some rocks that only had one way to get up onto them. They were forced to come up 1 and 2 at a time, they all died. We were able to use terrain to our advantage to even the odds and simply out played them. 

 

There were also plenty of situations where we died but those moments aren't the ones that stick in memory for long.

And I think there is a very simple explanation Why PvP players are a minority.   Because the reality of competive gaming means that only a minority of that minority will be really good at it.   And that really good minority relishes in destroying that small minority that  like to try PvP, but are not as competitive and end up leaving the game eventually when they have had enough of defeat.

 

The reason it never works long term is the strong always end up grouping together and preying on the weak, like a pack of wolves.    Eventually the deer and the sheep are consumed and the wolves move on.

 

MMO PvP in a nutshell.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12298

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/21/14 2:52:06 AM#58
Originally posted by Javelin007

 

If I was just a gamer I might agree with you, the problem is that I'm also a dev. So when you say the dev's should make something better, well I'm in that pool.

 

Since you brought it up, what game did you release?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
8/21/14 3:06:23 AM#59
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Javelin007

 

If I was just a gamer I might agree with you, the problem is that I'm also a dev. So when you say the dev's should make something better, well I'm in that pool.

 

Since you brought it up, what game did you release?

 

does that matter?

  Javelin007

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/14
Posts: 13

 
OP  8/21/14 3:12:08 AM#60
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Javelin007

 

If I was just a gamer I might agree with you, the problem is that I'm also a dev. So when you say the dev's should make something better, well I'm in that pool.

 

Since you brought it up, what game did you release?

 

I don't want this to turn into a thread picking apart games I worked on, particularly where I wasn't making design decisions. The last two projects I worked on were Marvel IP's as an artist.

 

I only mentioned I was a dev because it was relevant to my response to that particular post since "leaving it alone and let the dev's handle it" doesn't really apply in my case. Please don't make me regret disclosing that information lol, as it doesn't matter in context with what I'd like to discuss.

 

It is seeming like the consensus is basically that casuals may simply just not be interested in an experience that involves pvp even if it was presented in a way that wasn't punitive. So perhaps the idea of a casual sandbox mmo with freedom of combat just isn't appealing.

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