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  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4741

8/13/14 12:48:32 PM#141
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

How many of those "happy players" actually PAY for their entertainment. EQ may have "only" had 300-400K players, but every last one of them paid for their entertainment.

I don't know how many, but does it matter?

TOR made more than $200M in 2013 .. someone is paying for it. Does it matter whether 10M players each pay $20, or 100k whales each pay $2000?

 

Here's my subjectivity on all this (for what it's worth, I know)

I really don't care that TOR made 200M. The only extent I care about financials in the games I want to play is "Are they making enough money to keep the game going with the development it needs to have?"

After that, I could care less if it's two hundred dollars or two hundred billion dollars. One thing I learned as a long time Anarchy Online subscriber. As a player, I thought I was supporting my game paying for on going development and content each month. Well, I wasn't. FunCom was taking all the proceeds they were getting from one game and using it for another project. Well, what they do with their profits is up to them, but I was paying for a service and only receiving it in part. FunCom owed me and the rest of AO's player base a truckload of overdue content and upgrades that were promised and never came. Finally, they did get off their butts and release some gear upgrades and a couple new instances. Something akin to an average sized content update released by most MMORPGs after a few months. The difference here is that it was only once. Just one. After years, just one. But the kick in the balls was that they charged $20 bucks for it and called it a "booster pack".

 

So, if all that money these companies make isn't re invested back into improving the player experience for that game, then those financials are for investors, I don't give a flying F**K what it means otherwise.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1907

8/13/14 12:59:01 PM#142

pay2win. There is no single MMORPG, where you can simply congratulate another player for having achieved something, because you know that they could have probably bought there way there. I hate it. If there'd be ever another MMORPG without a cash shop or a cash shop that sells only items that have zero impact on the gameplay, then I would play that game.

Developers who create a non-cash shop MMORPG try to do one thing: build the best MMORPG possible with the amount of money and time available, so that many people buy it and keep playing it.

Developers who create a cash shop MMORPG try to do one thing: make you pay more. Lure you into the game with an easy entry, and then put obstacle after obstacle in your path, that can only be solved by spending money.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  Spankster77

Elite Member

Joined: 6/20/14
Posts: 249

 
OP  8/13/14 1:20:56 PM#143
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.

^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

  Chewybunny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/21/11
Posts: 41

8/13/14 1:25:54 PM#144
Making my character some sort of chosen one, heroic from the start, or destined for greatness plot lines. Because then everyone is a heroic, destined for greatness, chosen one.
  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4792

8/13/14 1:34:08 PM#145
Originally posted by Spankster77
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.

^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4792

8/13/14 1:35:10 PM#146
Originally posted by Chewybunny
Making my character some sort of chosen one, heroic from the start, or destined for greatness plot lines. Because then everyone is a heroic, destined for greatness, chosen one.

But that's just like real life...haven't you seen what they teach kids nowadays ?

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/13/14 1:44:51 PM#147
A p2p game does get their money upfront. The f2p doesn't.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1231

8/13/14 1:44:52 PM#148
Originally posted by DamonVile
 

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

Depends on the game really. I can point to LOTRO as a game where quality of expansions suffered once they went F2P compared to what it was in the first couple of years of subscription and look at SWTOR where they said at launch they'd  be extending class stories but haven't presumably because F2P=not enough money. Then you look at a game like Path Of Exile which releases a good deal of new content without a sub or a big budget so it can go either way. Although if I really want to play a game a sub still makes me feel more secure.

Another factor to look at is how long people stick with these games. If the average person plays 3 weeks and then quits isn't it hard to call that a good game compared to older  games that could retain many players for years?

 

 

 

 

  Pepeq

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/14
Posts: 466

8/13/14 1:50:49 PM#149
Originally posted by Spankster77
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.

^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

But you DID give the developer all of your money upfront when you bought the game.  That covered it's development costs.  Everything thereafter is gravy.  How is spending $50 to play a game for 30 days promising you new content and spending $50 to play a game forever not promising you new content.  You just ASSUME your subscription is being used to generate new content but the reality is, all that content was already in the pipes before you even bought the game.

 

I just don't fathom this mentality at all.  All a subscription does is ALLOW you to continue playing a game that you already paid for.  Whether there is or is not any updates to the game has zero to do with your subscription fee.  If it did, they'd forego a box price entirely, allow you to download it for free and only let you play it while you have active time on your game card.  But they don't do they?

 

Take the WoD expansion, that's a $50 fee that comes with 30 days game time.  You will spend an additional $90 just to get their first content update (more or less).  $140 spent.  That guy that bought the B2P game spent $50 and got their content update for $0.  Next content update is down the road even more... so more money spent.  Now you could say you'd stop playing until the content drops, thereby saving you money.  But therein lies the hole in your theory... if they are using your subscription fee to fund updates, how are they going to get their money if you're not subbed?  Who's paying for this content then?

 

Subscriptions are hogwash.  People pay subscriptions to keep playing the game they enjoy, not because of some promise of new content.  That expectation was manifested later by the players.  

 

  Muntz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 291

8/13/14 1:55:41 PM#150
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by DamonVile
 

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

Depends on the game really. I can point to LOTRO as a game where quality of expansions suffered once they went F2P compared to what it was in the first couple of years of subscription and look at SWTOR where they said at launch they'd  be extending class stories but haven't presumably because F2P=not enough money. Then you look at a game like Path Of Exile which releases a good deal of new content without a sub or a big budget so it can go either way. Although if I really want to play a game a sub still makes me feel more secure.

Another factor to look at is how long people stick with these games. If the average person plays 3 weeks and then quits isn't it hard to call that a good game compared to older  games that could retain many players for years?

 

 

 

 

The examples you give are for games that survived not thrived. So of course they scaled back from what they planned on doing because the revenue they were expecting wasn't there. It wasn't there when they were subscription based. It's not F2P that doesn't generate enough money for them it's the game itself no mater what payment option used doesn't make enough money. The question is if LOTRO stayed P2P would it have made enough money to pay for the content rate it had planned. It seems like because they went to a F2P model to survive that no the P2P was not going to make any difference. Something was going to give. The last 6 months I played AoC there was amost nothing for updates, why, they were not making enough money. GW2 has constant updates, it is a sucessful game it is also B2P. 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4792

8/13/14 2:03:04 PM#151
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by DamonVile
 

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

Depends on the game really. I can point to LOTRO as a game where quality of expansions suffered once they went F2P compared to what it was in the first couple of years of subscription and look at SWTOR where they said at launch they'd  be extending class stories but haven't presumably because F2P=not enough money. Then you look at a game like Path Of Exile which releases a good deal of new content without a sub or a big budget so it can go either way. Although if I really want to play a game a sub still makes me feel more secure.

Another factor to look at is how long people stick with these games. If the average person plays 3 weeks and then quits isn't it hard to call that a good game compared to older  games that could retain many players for years?

 

 

 

 

Nothing you said really disagrees with me ? The post I quoted said they'd rather pay for quality by playing a box+sub game. Your own examples only seem to further the point that attaching a box price and a sub doesn't mean quality or more development. Sustained income going to a company that doesn't want to just suck the players dry has a much better chance of getting you want you want, but that has more to do with the company than the payment model.

 

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  NobleNerd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/08/08
Posts: 460

Try not!Do or do notThere is no try.

8/13/14 2:26:04 PM#152
Originally posted by aesperus

Honestly, I hate to say it but, the players.

I am so sick of people being stuck on this linear, quest grindy, reward driven, level-based progression model.

We have the ability to play these games differently, yet we chose not to and complain that they aren't different. I would love to see a change in mentality that would actually allow for different types of MMOs to exist. I would love to see more sandboxy games that don't rely heavily on quests or pvp. But I would love to see them actually thrive, instead of being really small, clunky, niche genres.

I'd love to see more RPGs using the zelda model of progression. Obtain tools to allow you to traverse more of the gameworld, over simply getting a high enough lvl to survive.

I'd love to see more interactive combat (I miss the skillchain system FFXI had, for example).

I'm not huge on crafting, but it would also be nice to see more interesting crafting systems in these games. Though again, if it's too intricate, people don't seem to bother using them.

- Though, I will also say that I've met a lot of really great people through these games. So it really has been a mixed bag. I just wish the status quo was a bit different. Maybe in a few years.

Nail on the head!

Seeing you brought up FFXI... let's continue along that road. I miss what FFXI offered when it came to community and communication. People took the time to talk to one another, not troll the chat-ways. Modern MMO games and players have created a toxic community of griefers and trolls that do not even try to fit into a game world nor be a part of the game world.

Skill chains in FFXI were nice... LOTRO also had a similar system. 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3189

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

8/13/14 3:42:56 PM#153


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Spankster77

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.

^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

That is certainly true. There are "bad" box+sub MMOs as well as "good" and "mediocre" ones. I am not saying what you think I am saying.

What a box+sub does is MAKE players pay for their entertainment. If the entertainment does not meet their "value judgment", they stop paying/playing. When something is free, people will take/use/play it simply because, "It is Free!"

Box+Sub in no way indicates a good game. However, it does indicate if players actually like it.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  jdizzle2k13

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/13
Posts: 139

Don't worry about the past. Look at how to shape your future.

8/13/14 3:55:30 PM#154
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Spankster77

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.


^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

That is certainly true. There are "bad" box+sub MMOs as well as "good" and "mediocre" ones. I am not saying what you think I am saying.

 

What a box+sub does is MAKE players pay for their entertainment. If the entertainment does not meet their "value judgment", they stop paying/playing. When something is free, people will take/use/play it simply because, "It is Free!"

Box+Sub in no way indicates a good game. However, it does indicate if players actually like it.

What about B2P with no sub?  You pay for your entertainment there too, and you can pick it up whenever you like.  And I'm sure the games that are good or at least showed promise during beta will get good initial sales, and if they have a good business model with a minimal cash shop, they can be successful as long as their game is fun for their intended audience.



  Spankster77

Elite Member

Joined: 6/20/14
Posts: 249

 
OP  8/13/14 4:02:32 PM#155
Originally posted by Pepeq

But you DID give the developer all of your money upfront when you bought the game.  That covered it's development costs.  Everything thereafter is gravy.  How is spending $50 to play a game for 30 days promising you new content and spending $50 to play a game forever not promising you new content.  You just ASSUME your subscription is being used to generate new content but the reality is, all that content was already in the pipes before you even bought the game.

 

I just don't fathom this mentality at all.  All a subscription does is ALLOW you to continue playing a game that you already paid for.  Whether there is or is not any updates to the game has zero to do with your subscription fee.  If it did, they'd forego a box price entirely, allow you to download it for free and only let you play it while you have active time on your game card.  But they don't do they?

 

Take the WoD expansion, that's a $50 fee that comes with 30 days game time.  You will spend an additional $90 just to get their first content update (more or less).  $140 spent.  That guy that bought the B2P game spent $50 and got their content update for $0.  Next content update is down the road even more... so more money spent.  Now you could say you'd stop playing until the content drops, thereby saving you money.  But therein lies the hole in your theory... if they are using your subscription fee to fund updates, how are they going to get their money if you're not subbed?  Who's paying for this content then?

 

Subscriptions are hogwash.  People pay subscriptions to keep playing the game they enjoy, not because of some promise of new content.  That expectation was manifested later by the players.  

 

^ Not sure where the confusion is?  A few key points that you are missing...

 

1.  I can cancel my sub at anytime if I am not satisfied.  If enough people do so it affects the company's drastically which is an incentive for them to maintain a higher standard.

 

2.  B2P (i.e. GW1-2)... They release(d) content very rarely and when they do it's rather minor until they release an expansion pack which you have to pay for regardless.  So people play through the game maybe a few x's then log on once every 6 month or so to complete the latest "event".  This vastly differs from a game like WoW where every 4 months or so you get an entire new tier of gear/bosses, mounts, pets, dungeons, crafting patterns etc.  I don't sub to WoW anymore but you can't possibly compare the amount of content that is released annually in a game like GW2's to WoW, it's not even close.  Not to mention that you can count on bi-annual major ex-packs.

 

3.  Expectations.  When people describe B2P games they will often start out with statements like, "There is a lot of content for what it is!", implying that because it's B2P don't expect too much.  This isn't the case with P2P MMOs, people actually have unrealistic expectations which force the companies to push out content and fix bugs. 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3189

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

8/13/14 4:11:40 PM#156


Originally posted by jdizzle2k13

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Spankster77

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.

^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

That is certainly true. There are "bad" box+sub MMOs as well as "good" and "mediocre" ones. I am not saying what you think I am saying.

What a box+sub does is MAKE players pay for their entertainment. If the entertainment does not meet their "value judgment", they stop paying/playing. When something is free, people will take/use/play it simply because, "It is Free!"

Box+Sub in no way indicates a good game. However, it does indicate if players actually like it.



What about B2P with no sub?  You pay for your entertainment there too, and you can pick it up whenever you like.

While the player pays an initial cost, they are not required to pay for any further play. A B2P model with paid expansions and smaller downloads I would accept as a good measure of how players are enjoying their games. But they can still play for free after that initial investment.

Remember, we have many posters here that feel they "have" to play an MMO of any kind. Not a good indicator if an MMO is any good or fun for them. Some may be just "tolerable enough" for them to keep playing to get that "fix."

The gist of my point is that playing for free, or even with a small initial investment, does not indicate a good or popular game to me. Even with B2P, if a player shells out the initial cost, they may not enjoy the game, but their initial investment is still counted as "proof" of a great game. With a sub game, every month a player decides if a game is "fun enough" to re-subscribe, indicating to me a how well that game is liked.

I bought the old GW game and even the newer GW2 game. Even though I do not play them anymore, though I could at any time, my purchase (and possibly account) is counted in their numbers. Not a very good indicator, wouldn't you agree?

WoW is the anomaly, I know. But it shows me that multiple millions of players enjoy the MMO enough to re-sub every month. Sure, you have a small percentage of players that just neglect to "unsubscribe" or players that sub just take a peek at how the game doing, but generally speaking, it is a good overall indicator that most players are enjoying their time in game.

[EDIT]
I guess I should clarify that I DO think F2P should exist. It is just when players try to throw F2P numbers at P2P numbers, the comparison stops being between equal items, like Apples to Kiwis. They may both be fruit, but there the similarities stop.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Urvan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/28/04
Posts: 641

"How do you prove that you exist..? Maybe we don't exist.." Vivi, Final Fantasy IX

8/13/14 4:12:22 PM#157

My biggest complaint is they're just too god damn boring.  I mean some have so many pointless quests its unreal and some quests even make you feel insignificant and ripped off for doing them.  For example: I did a quest on Everquest 2 that I can not forget to this day; I had to kill some snakes for this dude so he could sell their skins for "gold" which he told me after I returned and rewarded me with some lousy copper pieces.. I mean WTF man..? you're getting gold and all I get is a few lousy copper?! I'd rather beat him to death, take damn skins and sell them for gold myself! >_>

Another complaint I have is how many there are and how most seem more like friggin' money milk cows than anything else.  All the stupid cash shops, DLC, and so-called collectors editions out there and lets not forget the ones that practically make you feel like you have no god damn choice but to tap into their pay more options to get anywhere in their god damn game cus the tight b*ds made it too damn hard to just play and enjoy any other way!

Honestly, its times like this when I often wonder why I still bother playing MMOs.



  Pepeq

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/14
Posts: 466

8/13/14 4:22:31 PM#158
Originally posted by Spankster77
Originally posted by Pepeq

But you DID give the developer all of your money upfront when you bought the game.  That covered it's development costs.  Everything thereafter is gravy.  How is spending $50 to play a game for 30 days promising you new content and spending $50 to play a game forever not promising you new content.  You just ASSUME your subscription is being used to generate new content but the reality is, all that content was already in the pipes before you even bought the game.

 

I just don't fathom this mentality at all.  All a subscription does is ALLOW you to continue playing a game that you already paid for.  Whether there is or is not any updates to the game has zero to do with your subscription fee.  If it did, they'd forego a box price entirely, allow you to download it for free and only let you play it while you have active time on your game card.  But they don't do they?

 

Take the WoD expansion, that's a $50 fee that comes with 30 days game time.  You will spend an additional $90 just to get their first content update (more or less).  $140 spent.  That guy that bought the B2P game spent $50 and got their content update for $0.  Next content update is down the road even more... so more money spent.  Now you could say you'd stop playing until the content drops, thereby saving you money.  But therein lies the hole in your theory... if they are using your subscription fee to fund updates, how are they going to get their money if you're not subbed?  Who's paying for this content then?

 

Subscriptions are hogwash.  People pay subscriptions to keep playing the game they enjoy, not because of some promise of new content.  That expectation was manifested later by the players.  

 

^ Not sure where the confusion is?  A few key points that you are missing...

 

1.  I can cancel my sub at anytime if I am not satisfied.  If enough people do so it affects the company's drastically which is an incentive for them to maintain a higher standard.

 

2.  B2P (i.e. GW1-2)... They release(d) content very rarely and when they do it's rather minor until they release an expansion pack which you have to pay for regardless.  So people play through the game maybe a few x's then log on once every 6 month or so to complete the latest "event".  This vastly differs from a game like WoW where every 4 months or so you get an entire new tier of gear/bosses, mounts, pets, dungeons, crafting patterns etc.  I don't sub to WoW anymore but you can't possibly compare the amount of content that is released annually in a game like GW2's to WoW, it's not even close.  Not to mention that you can count on bi-annual major ex-packs.

 

3.  Expectations.  When people describe B2P games they will often start out with statements like, "There is a lot of content for what it is!", implying that because it's B2P don't expect too much.  This isn't the case with P2P MMOs, people actually have unrealistic expectations which force the companies to push out content and fix bugs. 

1.  Unsubbing doesn't hurt them when they already have been paid.  Subscriptions are gravy.  You paid for the entire game with the original fee, be it box fee or expansion fee.  All that follows is already paid for.  What isn't paid for is the next expansion or next game.  And guess what, when it comes out, you get to pay for that too.

 

2.  Sure we get to pay for expansions.  So do you.  Difference is, we DON'T pay for anything in between... you do.  We get content updates, more so than what you think.  You try to claim a new tier of gear or a new raid instance as substantial content but the reality is, it's not.  If it were, people wouldn't be crying over running it for a greater portion of a year.  Subscription games have no better track record of content updates than F2P games.

 

3.  No, that's your interpretation of it.  I expect a lot of the games that I pay for.  B2P is a paid for game.  F2P is another story.  I didn't pay to play the game.   My B2P games get updates, bug fixes, you name it.  If they didn't, I wouldn't buy them again. 

 

So in REALITY, you and I paid the same thing for a game.  We both get content updates, mine are free, your's cost money.  I can play whenever and however I want, you have to pay an entry fee to your own game.  We both pay for expansions.  How is a sub in your game doing anything but lining their pockets?

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

8/13/14 4:22:40 PM#159
Originally posted by NobleNerd
Originally posted by aesperus

Honestly, I hate to say it but, the players.

I am so sick of people being stuck on this linear, quest grindy, reward driven, level-based progression model.

We have the ability to play these games differently, yet we chose not to and complain that they aren't different. I would love to see a change in mentality that would actually allow for different types of MMOs to exist. I would love to see more sandboxy games that don't rely heavily on quests or pvp. But I would love to see them actually thrive, instead of being really small, clunky, niche genres.

I'd love to see more RPGs using the zelda model of progression. Obtain tools to allow you to traverse more of the gameworld, over simply getting a high enough lvl to survive.

I'd love to see more interactive combat (I miss the skillchain system FFXI had, for example).

I'm not huge on crafting, but it would also be nice to see more interesting crafting systems in these games. Though again, if it's too intricate, people don't seem to bother using them.

- Though, I will also say that I've met a lot of really great people through these games. So it really has been a mixed bag. I just wish the status quo was a bit different. Maybe in a few years.

Nail on the head!

Seeing you brought up FFXI... let's continue along that road. I miss what FFXI offered when it came to community and communication. People took the time to talk to one another, not troll the chat-ways. Modern MMO games and players have created a toxic community of griefers and trolls that do not even try to fit into a game world nor be a part of the game world.

Skill chains in FFXI were nice... LOTRO also had a similar system. 

You can't have the kind of community you used to have with modern, fast paced, combat in MMOs. If I wanted to smash buttons as fast as I can I would play street fighter.

  jdizzle2k13

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/13
Posts: 139

Don't worry about the past. Look at how to shape your future.

8/13/14 4:23:55 PM#160
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by jdizzle2k13

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Spankster77

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Ask yourself this. If MMOs required a box purchase AND a sub, how many would still be kicking? Free games slant the numbers and speak NOTHING of quality.


^ another great point...  I have never been a fan of the B2P and F2P MMO model.  I would rather pay for quality and be able to demand new content regularly over being at the mercy of the development studio that got all their money up front and no longer has a great deal at stake.

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

That is certainly true. There are "bad" box+sub MMOs as well as "good" and "mediocre" ones. I am not saying what you think I am saying.

 

What a box+sub does is MAKE players pay for their entertainment. If the entertainment does not meet their "value judgment", they stop paying/playing. When something is free, people will take/use/play it simply because, "It is Free!"

Box+Sub in no way indicates a good game. However, it does indicate if players actually like it.



What about B2P with no sub?  You pay for your entertainment there too, and you can pick it up whenever you like.

While the player pays an initial cost, they are not required to pay for any further play. A B2P model with paid expansions and smaller downloads I would accept as a good measure of how players are enjoying their games. But they can still play for free after that initial investment.

 

Remember, we have many posters here that feel they "have" to play an MMO of any kind. Not a good indicator if an MMO is any good or fun for them. Some may be just "tolerable enough" for them to keep playing to get that "fix."

The gist of my point is that playing for free, or even with a small initial investment, does not indicate a good or popular game to me. Even with B2P, if a player shells out the initial cost, they may not enjoy the game, but their initial investment is still counted as "proof" of a great game. With a sub game, every month a player decides if a game is "fun enough" to re-subscribe, indicating to me a how well that game is liked.

I bought the old GW game and even the newer GW2 game. Even though I do not play them anymore, though I could at any time, my purchase (and possibly account) is counted in their numbers. Not a very good indicator, wouldn't you agree?

WoW is the anomaly, I know. But it shows me that multiple millions of players enjoy the MMO enough to re-sub every month. Sure, you have a small percentage of players that just neglect to "unsubscribe" or players that sub just take a peek at how the game doing, but generally speaking, it is a good overall indicator that most players are enjoying their time in game.

[EDIT]
I guess I should clarify that I DO think F2P should exist. It is just when players try to throw F2P numbers at P2P numbers, the comparison stops being between equal items, like Apples to Kiwis. They may both be fruit, but there the similarities stop.

Gotcha.  So subscription numbers tend to be an indicator of how good or popular a game is, while in a F2P/B2P system, the numbers can be skewed by those who spend an extraoardinary amount.



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