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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Has kickstarter actually produced any finished mmos yet?

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63 posts found
  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

7/21/14 5:48:16 AM#41
Originally posted by Raagnarz

Camelot Unchained is another one that is worth watching out for. They had a massive week of unveils including their backers playing with the internal testing build this past week and getting to see 9 of the races in action. Its not even in alpha state but it will be made.

 

Of your list I think The Repopulation will be the first out the door with Pathfinder and Shards not that long after. Granted that  not that far after could still be a couple of years. Camelot Unchained is at least 2 year off as well. So yeah I have zero doubt some KS funded MMO's will hit the market, I just don't think the full launch of any of them is going to be anytime soon"ish".

Here's The Repoluations June update:

>"Alpha 3 has been humming along and we are grateful to everyone that has supported us and joined in on the testing and bug squashing that has gone on the last few months. July should be a busy month with more tweeking and bug fixing as we are getting closer to being Beta 1 ready. Alpha 3 access is still available as part of the Early Adopter Program on our website and we look forward to seeing more of you in game later in the year as we roll into Beta and the different Beta phases."

I think it could be a bit further for post-beta. But combining beta and open access seems to be the lean and best strategy for these budget mmorpgs. The Repopulation's budget seems to be <5m$?

Now looking at Pathfinder Online which seems to have a 5-8m$ budget, they are in alpha also atm with an Early Enrollment aka early access in Q3. They have been on target up to their last milestone 7 (iirc) which was alpha possibly starting a month late. So how long alpha will be if we assume that will be a month later ending and plus a bit more delay they could Early Enrollment start or during Q4 2014, I believe.

Shards is a bit different with a modular type of knocked-down version that can integrate and grow the game, you could play a large multiplayer basic version now for example. So that seems to be how they are going with current round table talking about adding admin functionality for selling servers to players before long. Seems a good model but desperately unfortunate to miss their kickstarter target - needed to have come out in 2012 before Shroud? Again Shroud is more of a MO- type game with story chapters.

All these seem promising approaches and adding above all interesting design desisions. If the design is interesting I can take a massive cut in the graphics budget. The tech however does impact the game so the design needs to work with that in a very compatible way. But again middleware seems to have made all these approaches possible.

I can't help get the feeling a lot of negative commentary about the above is comparing the production standards, huge marketing (maybe?) and huge graphics budget and of course much larger mainstream that has for so long infected this genre.

There's an equal assessment that there will be failure KSs (not mentioned above) that are not worth touching with a barge-pole, because we're already seeing significant delay and cash burn and once I think these projects go into that phase it seems players will avoid that like the plague creating negative-feedback cycle.

Camelot Unchained has an interesting design but seems fairly far off atm 2 years eg. I mean their design docs should have been available in the ks imho let alone actually showing stuff. I still think they'll produce something that will please their backers, but they seem to so far have been more on a wing and a prayer than most projects that have shown more earlier.

=

TL;DR: It seems The Repopulation, Pathfinder Online and a few others already have basic versions available (for a fee). I think we'll see gradual development with these for a few years with a small population of players.

I welcome  a loss of graphical quality if the designs are coming out at much more budget production levels. The genre might be turning a corner. I still think a good design and just enough cash to ensure the tech is working as per the design, and a cool business head we'll see niche mmorpgs do v well for themselves.

Think SC will be huge when it rolls out.

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/21/14 8:44:51 AM#42
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by Loktofeit

CU - didn't say the engine was complete. As stated in my other post, they had a team already togetherh and working on it, creating prototypes of various components. They've documented a lot of it in the videos they released throughout the project's funding period. 

Shroud of the Avatar - already addressed that one. Team and development were already in progress before the kickstarter. 

Pathfinder Online - You're agreeing with me there, you realize that, right? Ryan didn't do the kickstarter for the MMO until they had a working tech demo, which came well after organizing the team and laying the groundwork in 2011. 

 

On The Repopulation, I see that as a shining example of what other indie and hobbyist projects should aspire to. They're focused. They are realistic about their goals. They are realistic about their abilities. They are at the trade shows, they are talking with the 3rd party and middleware people, and they have built a pretty solid team so far. Basically, they've got their act together and it shows. 

 

There was a team in both CU and Shroud of the Avatar, but not nearly the size they now are.. and more importantly they made other games before kickstarter. The work invested before kickstarter was really minimal. SotA went with Unity after kickstarter, and CU had to made their engine after kickstarer.. yeah.. they had not to go from zero.. and you can't really do a kickstarter on a more serious level with nothing to show of(basic team, concept, and maybe some concept art or some stuff to show), but the foundation work, the work on the basic tools and engines started for both afterwards.

And with PO.. they made a kickstarter to lay some foundation.. yeap, is was not the kickstarter for the game, but for the techdemo.. but before both kickstarter there was not much. A few people, a idea/deal with paizo, some concepts, but no engine, no tools, no nothing.

So let's say we are both right. They did something before, there existed a team before, and they made some stuff before. But they actually did not start to work on a MMO, and did not got all foundations(engines and tools) together.

How dare you be right!!! 

Sounds reasonable enough. :) 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 961

7/21/14 8:59:42 AM#43
Nope as they are all still in development and even then people are going to scream fails.  KS MMOs simply lack the funding for that is req for a major MMO.  People are going to expect a smooth polished product  of a AAA MMO and they will never get that.  And so far everything is promises and likely will be like the promises of all past major MMOs that failed to deliver.  I have little faith that any KS MMO will produce a quality product by todays stands and not in EQ1/EQ2 era standards.
  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2025

7/21/14 12:12:05 PM#44
Originally posted by Instigator-Jones

You can also check out:

TUG 

http://youtu.be/cLq3g0bQSWo

and

PLANET EXPLORERS

http://youtu.be/4x6Ch3gJBq8

They're both on steam now (I think) and both well into development and playable. Kind-of a Change of paste from traditional offerings, but interesting.

While I think Planet Explorers is shaping up nicely (admittedly I don't know much about TUG), both aren't really "MMOs" since they are more instanced versions of worlds, like Minecraft or Terraria.

To the OP:  Kickstarter is still relatively new and it hasn't become popular enough to fund MMOs until about 2010.  MMOs take years to develop.  I'm sure that eventually we'll start seeing Kickstarter MMOs start releasing or at least going into more public beta stages.  Plenty of examples of kickstarted MMOs that are making significant progress have already been posted here.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/21/14 12:35:23 PM#45
I hear Pantheon is in the works, by McQuaid or McGodager or Ghostcrawler or someone big in the industry.
  Jacxolope

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 762

7/21/14 12:39:06 PM#46
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
I hear Pantheon is in the works, by McQuaid or McGodager or Ghostcrawler or someone big in the industry.

LOL- Greed Monger as well.

I'm sure we will playing those two games anytime now...

*whistles while waiting*

  psiic

Elite Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 729

7/21/14 9:53:10 PM#47
Originally posted by Gel214th
Originally posted by psiic

Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

I have actually written close to 30 separate and unique business plans.  

Taken 17 of them to presentation.  

Of the 17 I have presented to banks and investors, only 4 received funding. Of those 4, two failed within the first year.

The third went under within 5 years, and the fourth has now been in business for 11 years with some success.

I know exactly what I am talking about. 

Business is tough, its risky, and there are tons of failures for every success as there should be.

When you remove the risk/reward aspect of business, you end up with a pile of shit where weak, mismanaged, undisciplined, idiots are running companies and saturating a market with craptastic ideas that only make it harder for real companies with real experience to produce real solid projects.

 

But this is the entitled generation where a bunch of young people think everyone should be given everything they want even if they have not earned it, and do not deserve it. 

A generation too stupid to realize that by taking away winners and losers, by making it so the weak survive, all they are doing is making everyone else themselves included weaker.

 

I do not manage my business because I am not qualified to manage a business. 

I do not do the accounting for my business because I am not qualified to do the books for a business. 

Unlike these kickstarts I run a real business where I hire qualified people to do a  job they are trained to do. 

Unlike a kickstart I have a real payroll account, with a real bank, and pay my people with real money.

Unlike a kickstart I have accountability to my lender and to my employees.

Unlike a kickstart I keep exact books, and pay the taxes I owe in a timely manner.

Unlike a kickstart if I produce crap I do not get paid.

 

Amazes me how some of you young people think socialism, marxism, communism is something new and fantastic, you created. 

 

 

  Joeyjojoshabadu

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/14
Posts: 106

7/21/14 10:56:24 PM#48
Originally posted by psiic
Originally posted by Gel214th
Originally posted by psiic

Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

I have actually written close to 30 separate and unique business plans.  

Taken 17 of them to presentation.  

Of the 17 I have presented to banks and investors, only 4 received funding. Of those 4, two failed within the first year.

The third went under within 5 years, and the fourth has now been in business for 11 years with some success.

I know exactly what I am talking about. 

Business is tough, its risky, and there are tons of failures for every success as there should be.

When you remove the risk/reward aspect of business, you end up with a pile of shit where weak, mismanaged, undisciplined, idiots are running companies and saturating a market with craptastic ideas that only make it harder for real companies with real experience to produce real solid projects.

 

But this is the entitled generation where a bunch of young people think everyone should be given everything they want even if they have not earned it, and do not deserve it. 

A generation too stupid to realize that by taking away winners and losers, by making it so the weak survive, all they are doing is making everyone else themselves included weaker.

 

I do not manage my business because I am not qualified to manage a business. 

I do not do the accounting for my business because I am not qualified to do the books for a business. 

Unlike these kickstarts I run a real business where I hire qualified people to do a  job they are trained to do. 

Unlike a kickstart I have a real payroll account, with a real bank, and pay my people with real money.

Unlike a kickstart I have accountability to my lender and to my employees.

Unlike a kickstart I keep exact books, and pay the taxes I owe in a timely manner.

Unlike a kickstart if I produce crap I do not get paid.

 

Amazes me how some of you young people think socialism, marxism, communism is something new and fantastic, you created. 

 

 

Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. In fact, in some respects they are less entitled than gen X (my gen) and particularly the boomers. One thing I've noticed as I've aged/matured is that the older generations don't necessarily know more than the younger ones, as most folk simply tend to narrow and solidify their viewpoints as they get older, rather than diversify. Hence the "get off my lawn" rants, more often borne from stubborn, petty-mindedness rather than any sort of worldly wisdom.

 

 

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/22/14 12:06:57 AM#49
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

 

US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

"They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

"Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

 

Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

"More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

 

US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

 

 

And for a dose of humor...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

 

 

Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

 

 

 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  PioneerStew

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/11
Posts: 899

7/22/14 12:37:23 AM#50
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

 

US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

"They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

"Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

 

Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

"More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

 

US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

 

 

And for a dose of humor...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

 

 

Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

 

 

 

 

 

As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

  psiic

Elite Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 729

7/22/14 12:48:20 AM#51
Originally posted by PioneerStew
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

 

US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

"They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

"Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

 

Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

"More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

 

US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

 

 

And for a dose of humor...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

 

 

Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

 

 

 

 

 

As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

The important difference is the baby boomers are capitalist, this generation are socialist. 

 

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4814

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/22/14 12:53:11 AM#52
Originally posted by psiic

 

As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

The important difference is the baby boomers are capitalist, this generation are socialist. 

Socialism doesn't mean everyone gets As. it means everyone gets Cs.

 

problem is liberalism and entitlement demands a curve.

 

  handlewithcare

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/14
Posts: 325

7/22/14 12:54:19 AM#53
shroud of the avatar will release in a view months and its going to be good.
  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/22/14 1:08:51 AM#54
Originally posted by PioneerStew
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

 

US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

"They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

"Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

 

Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

"More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

 

US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

 

 

And for a dose of humor...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

 

 

Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

 

 

 

 

 

As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

They definitely mde a mess, but I don't see how sense of entitlement plays into that. They're only asking for what they worked for, no? Very different from feeling owed from the start. Whatever the case, they're the generation that gave us ballpoint pens, the integrated circuit and rocketry, so I'm willing to give them a pass on everything else. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Joeyjojoshabadu

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/14
Posts: 106

7/22/14 2:56:25 AM#55
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

 

US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

"They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

"Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

 

Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

"More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

 

US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

 

 

And for a dose of humor...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

 

 

Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

 

 

 

 

 

Please - opinion pieces?

Two can play at that game (took me 20 seconds).

 

http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2013/06/7-reasons-baby-boomers-are-the-worst-generation/#image/1

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10171591/10-Baby-Boomer-entitlements-todays-youth-wont-have.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/keller-the-entitled-generation.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10875222/The-baby-boomers-too-selfish-to-volunteer.html

 

http://www.sentryjournal.com/2014/01/06/baby-boomers-the-selfish-generation/

 

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2013/10/us-youth-urged-to-attack-baby-boomer-greed/

 

I don't necessarily agree with any of these any more than the opinion pieces you posted. Point is, older, though-ossified folk have been pillorying the younger generations since we came down from the trees. Probably before then. And it's primarily a function of various cognitive biases rather than based on anything concrete.

 

  General-Zod

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 584

Kneel.

7/22/14 5:48:29 AM#56
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by ryvendark

Nope

so far they're all just " going to be good"

Well the "Kickstarter outpouring" started around 2012 and sadly decent MMO's aren't created in 2 years especially with the size of these indie teams with obvious funding issues.

Just a reminder for the few who want to understand the why instead of sarcastically spewing the why nots.

 

I'm not familiar with any successfully funded MMO on Kickstarter  where the MMO wasn't already at least 2-4 years into development.

The only one I can think of might be RG's project, but they seem like they were already reasonably into development as the Kickstarter video shows playable content.

If a KS campaign got funded and there wasn't already a couple years of development to show for it, I am curious what kind of approach they used to get an in-concept MMO project funded. Do you have a link to any of those?

I'm in Shroud of the Avatar and it's definitely not a hoax, is a good game getting better each patch. It will definitely get released as a finished product, no doubt about that. And as you said, it's at least a game you got gameplay videos before they asked you for money, unlike many others which are only wishes and promises.

I'm also looking forward to Shroud of the Avatar.

Loktofiet, a good example would be Camelot Unchained. The kickstarter was launched from just an idea with no screenshots or videos to supplement the campaign.

Camelot Unchained had an entire team working on the project and prototypes of several systems already publicly available at the time of the KS campaign. They also said Camelot Unchained is launching in 2015. Either they did have a good bit of development time under their belt, or they'll be the first ones to make or break your statement that a decent MMO isn't created in 2 years. Looking forward to the outcome of that. 

 

My point is whether the team has been together or not no meaningful progress can be had without funding. There can be a team that's been together for 2 years and in that time drew up all kinds of neat idea's and panned out what direction they want to go in. It's still going to take atleast 3 years to develop a decent fully operational MMO (and this is with a large team)

Op wanted to know what kickstarter MMO's have been completed and my point was given the time some of these MMO's received their funding there shouldn't be any completed.

As somebody mentioned earlier, Camelot Unchained might be the only exception because there is hardly any PvE which cuts time and cost down significantly. This won't break my statement...

  askdaboss

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 457

7/22/14 6:25:06 AM#57
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by PioneerStew

As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

They definitely mde a mess, but I don't see how sense of entitlement plays into that. They're only asking for what they worked for, no? Very different from feeling owed from the start. Whatever the case, they're the generation that gave us ballpoint pens, the integrated circuit and rocketry, so I'm willing to give them a pass on everything else. 

Yes, the difference is that any non-Baby Boomer (working the same as the Baby Boomers did) who too "only asks to get what they work for" gets told disdainfully by Baby Boomers they are "entitled".

Or simply put: "Sorry the pie has been shared already, here are some crumbs and don't complain about it you entitled kid".

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/22/14 8:20:53 AM#58
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Please - opinion pieces?

Two can play at that game (took me 20 seconds).

I thought that the inclusion of humor videos from both sides of the Boomer/Millenial fence and a dig at my own generation would make it clear I'm not invested in any side of the argument, only pointing out they have a reputation for entitlement, warranted or not. 

Sorry you got butthurt, Joey. :( 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1303

7/22/14 8:29:37 AM#59
Originally posted by psiic

Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now.

 

Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers.

 

I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money.

 

Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers.

 

If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding.

 

If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

Think you need to cut back on the melodrama juice there.

That's an awfully myopic, and ridiculously cynical view of it.

Because some games you personally backed haven't panned out well, you're going to damn the whole crowd funding thing as "a criminal enterprise originally designed to launder money"? Seriously?

You sound like a scorned lover, lashing out at all women/men because you've had a streak of bad relationships.

You do realize that many AAA projects get canned before they're completed? Even those backed by Publishers and/or investors, with loans provided by banks - what you consider a "workable business model". Sometimes things just don't work out.

You do realize that many successful Kickstarters have been completed and released their products, or otherwise went on to achieve what they were seeking funding for?

A friend of mine raised almost 900% of what they were seeking, to start a small business selling animal-related products, with a portion of the proceeds going toward helping rescued or otherwise "less adoptable" animals find homes... all of which they have already fulfilled and are doing. Guess I'll have to tell her that she's really nothing but a scam artist and a money launderer, because psiic on mmorpg.com said so. I'm sure she'll find that enlightening. 

Actually, she'll probably just laugh at the paranoid stupidity of it.

Along with the myriad others whose crowdfunding has allowed them to achieve exactly what they set out to do.

But, you know... because you had a bad run with a few games... obviously they're all just charlatans looking to steal  your money. Yeah. Of course.

Are there scams out there? Wouldn't surprise me if there are. However, "some" does not equal "all".

Also, a failed project, or a project meeting delays (which even AAA projects with "workable business plans" run into), does not make it a "scam". 

  JamesP

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/06
Posts: 315

7/22/14 10:08:41 AM#60
Originally posted by psiic
Originally posted by Gel214th
Originally posted by psiic

Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

I have actually written close to 30 separate and unique business plans.  

Taken 17 of them to presentation.  

Of the 17 I have presented to banks and investors, only 4 received funding. Of those 4, two failed within the first year.

The third went under within 5 years, and the fourth has now been in business for 11 years with some success.

I know exactly what I am talking about. 

Business is tough, its risky, and there are tons of failures for every success as there should be.

When you remove the risk/reward aspect of business, you end up with a pile of shit where weak, mismanaged, undisciplined, idiots are running companies and saturating a market with craptastic ideas that only make it harder for real companies with real experience to produce real solid projects.

 

But this is the entitled generation where a bunch of young people think everyone should be given everything they want even if they have not earned it, and do not deserve it. 

A generation too stupid to realize that by taking away winners and losers, by making it so the weak survive, all they are doing is making everyone else themselves included weaker.

 

I do not manage my business because I am not qualified to manage a business. 

I do not do the accounting for my business because I am not qualified to do the books for a business. 

Unlike these kickstarts I run a real business where I hire qualified people to do a  job they are trained to do. 

Unlike a kickstart I have a real payroll account, with a real bank, and pay my people with real money.

Unlike a kickstart I have accountability to my lender and to my employees.

Unlike a kickstart I keep exact books, and pay the taxes I owe in a timely manner.

Unlike a kickstart if I produce crap I do not get paid.

 

Amazes me how some of you young people think socialism, marxism, communism is something new and fantastic, you created. 

 

 

Actually SOME people just don't want Investors breathing down their backs telling them how to do their job so they get a return on their investments. When you have Investors your forced to play it safe and you end up with cookie cutter MMOs of MMOs that have worked in the past. There is no room for true creative innovation. KickStarter has paved the way for us Indies to get the funding we need with out the negative aspects of Investors.

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Greed Monger
http://www.GreedMonger.com

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