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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Action MMORPGS and why I don't think they'll catch on.

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80 posts found
  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2860

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

7/21/14 1:30:12 PM#41

Well if you go by the charts of biggest earners for last year (which should probably be taken with a grain of salt, who knows how real those numbers are unless they are directly taken from the company) Tera Online was listed as being the 3rd highest grossing MMO under the classic titans World of Warcraft and Lineage 1. If the numbers we do find out were based off company released statistics, then it would stand to show that Action combat IS by far something people enjoy and does catch on. Unless the numbers were massively fudged, its a big indictation that Actions MMOrpgs ARE doing just fine.

I don't feel tab target is anywhere near going out of fashion, but people really WANT an MMo that involves much more thought and attention towards. Games like Rift or World of Warcraft became so much more tedius having to do activities without applying any bit of thought to (wow in particular), making things so droll having no challenge when it comes to much of the content you are expected to do daily. If anything i think action MMos are far more likely to succeede in a market flooded with tab target MMos, at least until action MMos start to become in vast number as well.

 

Thus far, they have done an amazing job catching on and i feel have really carried a lot of weight themselves. Not certain why you don't feel they aren't catching on.

 

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4180

7/21/14 1:33:07 PM#42
I dream of an mmo with Dark Souls combat
  Inf666

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 508

7/21/14 1:41:43 PM#43
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
I dream of an mmo with Dark Souls combat

...but without the target locking!

---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4755

7/21/14 1:43:50 PM#44
Originally posted by Mkilbride

GW2 & WildStar are not Action MMOs. They are Tab Target. Just they do not seem Tab Target, but still are.

GW2 had that Combat Mod that someone released and was interesting. Tera does have a distinct lack of skills. ARound 8 per class, that you upgrade to "I-V" ect.   Tera is also floundering, if you go to their forums, or look at the history of their population charts, the game has less people now by far than it did at it's lowest during a sub game.  They updated the game with an Elin only race, removed the customziation system and put it in the cash shop, and have been nerfing dungeons to make them easier. The playerbase is not responding well to that.

It is good to see such debates sparking. Though I am confused by people calling WildStar an action MMORPG...just having a dodge ability does not an action MMORPG make. 

*As to the person who said "Why can't we have both?"  It's pretty obvious, I'd think. Twice the development time on devs. One would end up being superior. Patching / balancing would have to be done for two systems.  It's not feasable. Then we'd have the community divide, that would make guilds frustrating. Just wouldn't work.

Combat mod makes GW2's combat behave nearly identica to TERAs (the difference being that the games have different class design, where TERA has nested combo chains, and GW2 has more of a talent / weapon-swap system).

So, how is one action and the other not, in your eyes?

What, to you, constitutes an action MMO? Is it that it has a default retical based targetting system? Or do you have any other criteria.

All of those games listed have active dodging, aiming, skill-shots, and are based around player reactions & skill vs. passive stat gains.

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1301

7/21/14 2:03:50 PM#45
Originally posted by Mkilbride

GW2 & WildStar are not Action MMOs. They are Tab Target. Just they do not seem Tab Target, but still are.

Yes, and Devil May Cry has auto-targeting, too. Are you saying TERA is an action game while DMC isn't?

In fact, most swordfighting games have some lock-on features. DMC, Dark Souls, Dynasty Warriors, etc. The only difference between that and GW2's tab-targeting is that you don't have to hold the button in GW2.

  Kaladin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/28/13
Posts: 163

7/21/14 2:15:53 PM#46

I just liked the bits about MMORPGs being physically exhausting, and that Wildstar is tab-target.

 

If video games are physically exhausting, I think you know what I would suggest.

I guess you could call Wildstar tab target by virtue of the fact that you can press tab and the target frame will go to an enemy, but the more traditional meaning of tab-target is that you press tab to target the enemy that all of your attacks will land on.  Which is not the case in Wildstar.  You still have to aim, and tabbing will just show you mob HP and a cast bar.

I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4180

7/21/14 2:21:56 PM#47
Originally posted by Inf666
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
I dream of an mmo with Dark Souls combat

...but without the target locking!

Even in Dark Souls that feature is useless for majority of mobs and bosses.

  BailoPan15

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/26/14
Posts: 287

7/21/14 3:03:52 PM#48

Here OP, educate yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaxYx2pStUE

[mod edit]

1) This is Guild Wars 2, a game you said does not have action combat.

2) This is completely naked character going against one of the meanest monsters in this game. The amount of wipes and baby tears this big guy brings to inexperienced players is waaaay over the top. 

3) This guy manages to beat him because he is good. Please go ahead and do that in your favorite action MMO game. [mod edit]

 

Now let me break it to you. A true action combat game shouldn't make you farm the best gear. It should give you the tools to sustain yourself in a fight. You think that's faulty logic? kay...

When was the last time you grinded stats in DmC? Because I completed DmC on the hardest mode, you know, where you die in 1 hit and the mobs are full HP. I don't remember grinding for gear, nop. Just using my shit. 

Also in action combat, things like, say, arrows, do not take curve at you. If you step aside and it flies next to you, you do not get damage. That's pretty much what happens in Gw2. Most notable if you face a staff necromancer. So there you have it. Tab-based action combat at its finest :) 

  Beelzebobbie

Elite Member

Joined: 1/03/09
Posts: 419

If DaoC was so fun why don't you just play it?

7/21/14 3:36:48 PM#49
If you put aside world of warcraft then the mmo world is pretty much equaly divided between action and traditional so in this point I feel that you are wrong on many points. 
  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1345

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

7/22/14 11:16:38 AM#50
The new trend is action and I hate it.  If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's.  I almost can't blame them tho.  No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else.  A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.

http://s25.postimg.org/e4cys86xb/gw004.jpg

  BailoPan15

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/26/14
Posts: 287

7/22/14 2:55:30 PM#51
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
The new trend is action and I hate it.  If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's.  I almost can't blame them tho.  No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else.  A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.

What lag do you speak of? Network lag? Or FPS lag. If its the latter then I'm sorry buddy but you can't slow down progress. Just go out and buy some parts. As for the first, if you choose the right datacenter you shouldn't have any issues at all. I rarely hear people complain about lag really. 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4754

7/22/14 3:03:21 PM#52
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Mkilbride

Vindictus, Tera, and to some degree, TESO. I love third person hack and slashes like DMC. Great fun. I love Vindictus too. Tera had neat combat.

The issue with why these games didn't / aren't succeeding....

They aren't?

Personally, I prefer tab targeting. However, as for the claim, Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could dig up a few titles that use tab targeting that wish they were doing as well as the games listed here that supposedly aren't doing well due to action combat.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Velifax

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/13
Posts: 34

7/22/14 9:24:07 PM#53

I don't see much point in distinguishing a game like World of Warcraft from a game like GW2 or Tera, etc. Both lead to heart-pounding, finger twitching, sweaty battles.

 

Only at the level of EverQuest 1 would I bother drawing a distinction. EQ really took action down to root or run.

 

Either way, I've never felt even the slightest urge for an action mmorpg; too many great single player action games.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3200

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/22/14 11:11:30 PM#54


Originally posted by Jemcrystal
The new trend is action and I hate it.  If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's.  I almost can't blame them tho.  No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else.  A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.

Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2739

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/22/14 11:20:35 PM#55
Originally posted by Albatroes
Personally, when I have to do the same thing over and over again in a game, I want to do it as cruise-control as possible. I don't want to dodge and aim etc repetitively just to watch something I want go to someone else or not drop at all. That's not saying I do not like action mmorpgs, but as an investment I personally don't stick with them. That's why I like ranged classes in traditional mmorpgs like wow/rift w/e so I can just hang back on occasion and do the grind.

Doing the same thing over and over is why I think action combat is the bestest in the world.  it breaks all the monotony with actually doing something other then going through the motions.  Different stokes for different folks I guess.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Aeander

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/11
Posts: 302

7/22/14 11:22:05 PM#56
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Jemcrystal
The new trend is action and I hate it.  If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's.  I almost can't blame them tho.  No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else.  A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.


Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.

 

What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat. 

 

A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?

  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 510

7/22/14 11:38:41 PM#57
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Jemcrystal
The new trend is action and I hate it.  If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's.  I almost can't blame them tho.  No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else.  A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.


Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.

 

I don't think difference combat make role-playing less role playing ,

IMO it give player more chose to make things complex so it raise the role-playing feel a lots . Though still not to point where you can reason with monster .

Only thing i don't like about current action combat is major skill chase after me even if i success evasion .

 

i also don't like the way they use "action combat" , mouse fixed shooting mode wasn't good IMO .

As RPG player i prefer more tactic and strategy .

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3200

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/23/14 11:08:29 AM#58


Originally posted by Aeander

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by Jemcrystal
The new trend is action and I hate it.  If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's.  I almost can't blame them tho.  No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else.  A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.

Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.

What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat. 

A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?



The combat system has everything to do, since that is 80-95% of current games. Random Number Generation is the key. Ever hear of that? Action Combat lacks this feature, making the player's "skill" decide hits and misses, not the character's skills, developed in the game by choices the player makes.

When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary :)

I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.

The above is only my opinion and preference.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5252

7/23/14 11:26:33 AM#59
Currently there arent any Action MMO's that arent MMOFPS's that i would be interested in playing, and even the one i do play, Planetside 2, is something i play on  a very casual basis, which is basically once maybe twice a fortnight. It was also the feature that put me off of playing GW2, despite the fact that i really liked the graphics in the game, maybe i am just not that much of a fan of twitch gaming, but i don't ever see me choosing to play one of those types of games, but i wouldn't say that they won't catch on with the gaming public, i just don't see them achieving the top rankings in the MMO genre, they also tend to have a small number of 'combat actions' which probably makes them console friendly, but i personally find them restrictive, either you have a full spread of combat actions or you don't use hotkeys at all, which is pretty much how Planetside handles things.
  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1445

7/23/14 11:57:20 AM#60
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


..snip

 

When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary :)

...snip

That's something I never thought of relating it to RPG. Good read.

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