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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Teenage Girls Create Their First RPG

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63 posts found
  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

7/18/14 11:45:54 PM#21
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by greenreen
...snip

So, you're blaming sexism for the fact that you're being self-conscious about where your desk is. Hate to break it to you, but anybody in that spot probably would have gotten hassled like that.

...snip

 

So in the end, this whole ridiculous rant not only fails to prove the existence of sexism in the industry, but quite honestly makes you come off as quite a bitter, hostile, narcissistic person who sees 'sexism' in just about any and all unfavorable workplace conditions.

It seems to me that the 'mistreatment' you've suffered is either falsely attributed to sexism, or perhaps outright fabricated.

The only sexism in your story is that which was demonstrated by yourself. Not that I'm surprised. That's what women like you do; if things don't go your way, it's all because of sexism. Note the emphasized part, because I'm sure somebody will come along and accuse me of blanket statements against all women if I don't immediately point out that I'm merely referring to a specific subgroup.

Furthermore, I'm neither saying nor implying that sexism in the workplace doesn't happen at all, I'm merely pointing out that in this case, and plenty of other cases, there is little to no evidence to support the idea that sexism is or was involved.

You are entitled to your opinion. You weren't there and you didn't hear everything. I can expose nothing further without outing enough details to mention where I work. I have paperwork from the ALJ judge during my hearing and I don't think I need to expose that either to a disbeliever or mention how I ended up taking papers home after grabbing a stack which included reports which revealed that I was the lowest paid person in the office though I had been there longer before I started asking for raises. You see, I thought everyone was being paid badly like me and I was the only intern who worked for free. All other employees weren't supposed to "prove" they should be there by working for free for 6 mos. There are a lot of things you weren't told. As mentioned, I glazed things. I thought erroneously that I was treated equally until a chance occurrence grabbing an extra stack of papers in a meeting unrelated to my own because we were all sitting next to each other. Fate - who knows.

I think I put my boss in the good light, you see, he has kept me employed even with strife from his own wife. It's not because of my arrogance which I'm free to display here as a venting ground, it's because of my aptitude. I don't think he closes the door to hit on me. He's just a hard worker who likes to concentrate - it is his wife who pops into the office unannounced who had the issue. I think I absolutely have the right to keep things robotic to reduce gossip and you don't have any bearing on how I will act or continue to act. If you got to know my personality instead of focusing on my gender you would learn that I'm an INTJ - that means that I'm arrogant because I can be, not because I'm against men.  Also I am that annoying A student you hear about who was in advanced classes and read college level in grade school. I screwed up your curve lol   School yourself, read this.http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asp It will give you insight into my ways. I'm not just whistling dixie mon cher.

If you want to see two guys who get this personality type.

Here are two videos that I think might help identify a child or friend with an INTJ spin which means they have the capability to do what I'm doing. The second video especially addresses the farce and fake face we have to put up in society to seem more feminine but I don't think it's needed and it does hit on that robot note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDuNZyGaOus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QshZ7q3TUHM

You may need this to differentiate it from what you think I'm calling sexism. I don't believe I ever even used that word but I do notice what it's like to be that square peg with the circles all around me in these male based environments.

I'm addressing your comments before someone tries to "white knight" this thinking I need protection and sidetracks the topic with jibba jabba back and forth. I simply posted something I thought would make interesting reading. In the same way I listen to black people talk about their struggles by watching a Maya Angelou movie and watched videos on people who are paralyzed talking about how they interact with the world. If you aren't "born that way" or don't experience something you can only trust or not trust the stories they tell. You chose not trust and that's fine. You won't be eventful in my life but I think I should address this before it gets heavier than needed. This is a gaming forum, not a place to right all wrongs or even identify them other than with a light coat of paint IMO. 

 

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

7/19/14 4:12:28 AM#22
Girls cant write code, it's too abstract for them.

  DeserttFoxx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2337

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

7/19/14 4:37:48 AM#23

I have no interest in playing this game.

 

Not because it is made by girls, but because its part of the 8bit epidemic that seems to be cropping up this year.

 

My GTX780 is offended by all these NES rehashes,

Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman

Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5266

7/19/14 5:13:25 AM#24

"I found it annoying when people who come sit in my area trying to strike up conversation. I was trying to work."

The joys of working in an office. :)

  3-4thElf

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 495

7/19/14 6:16:40 AM#25
Originally posted by Bolthar

I don't understand why this is Girls Make Games is even news. Boys and girls can both do gaming concepts, art, coding, and anything else to do with computing and developing. Not to mention I saw the video with the snip-it and it is not as though they did anything groundbreaking. If this same thing was boys doing it this would be a non story. I applaud the for doing it... but newsworthy? I fail to see the why of this being news.

This is right up there with the woman who posted about the fact Thor is now to be a woman and she was putting down all the male posters and said it was about time they made a female superhero for girls to look up to. When I told her about the plethora of female superheroes already out there (Dazzler, Jean Grey (Phoenix), Wonder Woman, Aurora, Kitty Pride, Darkstar, Invisible Woman, Polaris, and the list goes on) I became the bad guy for indicating there is already a number of strong female role models out there.

I guess I am just a bit too progressive thinking that boys and girls can do similar tasks and its not really a big deal...

Let me spell it out to you and the others making similar 'progressive' statements as to why you're not seeing why it's news.

There's roughly 10% of the game industry out there who are female. 1 in 10 game development workers are women. Way less than that are in the programming side. There's a lot of planners, managers, and now artists who are female, but they don't get into the nitty gritty world of hardcore game design & programming because they're told that they can't. Not directly told, but it's a force out there.

Girls in grade school are top students in math. In North America by the time they finish high school only about 10% honor in math... Same goes for college. The reason being is there's a lot of unspoken pressure that math & computer science is what boys do. Drawing and HR is what girls do.

This being news, going out there for people to read shows a direct contradiction to assumptions. You may not see the assumptions, you seem aloof to plenty of things by your comments.

Having an industry made up by nearly equal amounts of male & female users, but only influenced at a 9:1 ratio doesn't make for good business in the long run.

This is news because it needs to be seen by males & females so they can see that it isn't true. If we leave it unsaid then all of the things unsaid will be assumed and will be false.

 

a yo ho ho

  wizyy

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/05
Posts: 636

7/19/14 7:37:43 AM#26

nvm

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

7/19/14 7:46:40 AM#27
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Originally posted by Bolthar

I don't understand why this is Girls Make Games is even news. Boys and girls can both do gaming concepts, art, coding, and anything else to do with computing and developing. Not to mention I saw the video with the snip-it and it is not as though they did anything groundbreaking. If this same thing was boys doing it this would be a non story. I applaud the for doing it... but newsworthy? I fail to see the why of this being news.

This is right up there with the woman who posted about the fact Thor is now to be a woman and she was putting down all the male posters and said it was about time they made a female superhero for girls to look up to. When I told her about the plethora of female superheroes already out there (Dazzler, Jean Grey (Phoenix), Wonder Woman, Aurora, Kitty Pride, Darkstar, Invisible Woman, Polaris, and the list goes on) I became the bad guy for indicating there is already a number of strong female role models out there.

I guess I am just a bit too progressive thinking that boys and girls can do similar tasks and its not really a big deal...

Let me spell it out to you and the others making similar 'progressive' statements as to why you're not seeing why it's news.

There's roughly 10% of the game industry out there who are female. 1 in 10 game development workers are women. Way less than that are in the programming side. There's a lot of planners, managers, and now artists who are female, but they don't get into the nitty gritty world of hardcore game design & programming because they're told that they can't. Not directly told, but it's a force out there.

Girls in grade school are top students in math. In North America by the time they finish high school only about 10% honor in math... Same goes for college. The reason being is there's a lot of unspoken pressure that math & computer science is what boys do. Drawing and HR is what girls do.

This being news, going out there for people to read shows a direct contradiction to assumptions. You may not see the assumptions, you seem aloof to plenty of things by your comments.

Having an industry made up by nearly equal amounts of male & female users, but only influenced at a 9:1 ratio doesn't make for good business in the long run.

This is news because it needs to be seen by males & females so they can see that it isn't true. If we leave it unsaid then all of the things unsaid will be assumed and will be false.

 

Care to cite your sources where you say there are a lot more than 10% of programmers who are women ? Reason is that I am a proffesional SW developer and have been for the last 10 years and I can tell you that there is easily less than 10% of the people I have worked with who are SW developers and women. Most women, in my line of work, are project managers, web designers, usability experts and similar. Programmers, they are (mostly) not.

And the notion that just because your clients are a certain gender then your business need to be of the same gender does not hold true in every industry out there, so why gaming?

And I would like to see some proof that "they are told that they cant" get into game development. Sounds like feminist propaganda to me. I want to get into gaming development but I cant for two reasons. I am not good enough in C/C++ and I dont have enough connections to get into that business. And Im a male.

  3-4thElf

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 495

7/19/14 8:12:23 AM#28
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Originally posted by Bolthar

I don't understand why this is Girls Make Games is even news. Boys and girls can both do gaming concepts, art, coding, and anything else to do with computing and developing. Not to mention I saw the video with the snip-it and it is not as though they did anything groundbreaking. If this same thing was boys doing it this would be a non story. I applaud the for doing it... but newsworthy? I fail to see the why of this being news.

This is right up there with the woman who posted about the fact Thor is now to be a woman and she was putting down all the male posters and said it was about time they made a female superhero for girls to look up to. When I told her about the plethora of female superheroes already out there (Dazzler, Jean Grey (Phoenix), Wonder Woman, Aurora, Kitty Pride, Darkstar, Invisible Woman, Polaris, and the list goes on) I became the bad guy for indicating there is already a number of strong female role models out there.

I guess I am just a bit too progressive thinking that boys and girls can do similar tasks and its not really a big deal...

Let me spell it out to you and the others making similar 'progressive' statements as to why you're not seeing why it's news.

There's roughly 10% of the game industry out there who are female. 1 in 10 game development workers are women. Way less than that are in the programming side. There's a lot of planners, managers, and now artists who are female, but they don't get into the nitty gritty world of hardcore game design & programming because they're told that they can't. Not directly told, but it's a force out there.

Girls in grade school are top students in math. In North America by the time they finish high school only about 10% honor in math... Same goes for college. The reason being is there's a lot of unspoken pressure that math & computer science is what boys do. Drawing and HR is what girls do.

This being news, going out there for people to read shows a direct contradiction to assumptions. You may not see the assumptions, you seem aloof to plenty of things by your comments.

Having an industry made up by nearly equal amounts of male & female users, but only influenced at a 9:1 ratio doesn't make for good business in the long run.

This is news because it needs to be seen by males & females so they can see that it isn't true. If we leave it unsaid then all of the things unsaid will be assumed and will be false.

 

Care to cite your sources where you say there are a lot more than 10% of programmers who are women ? Reason is that I am a proffesional SW developer and have been for the last 10 years and I can tell you that there is easily less than 10% of the people I have worked with who are SW developers and women. Most women, in my line of work, are project managers, web designers, usability experts and similar. Programmers, they are (mostly) not.

And the notion that just because your clients are a certain gender then your business need to be of the same gender does not hold true in every industry out there, so why gaming?

And I would like to see some proof that "they are told that they cant" get into game development. Sounds like feminist propaganda to me. I want to get into gaming development but I cant for two reasons. I am not good enough in C/C++ and I dont have enough connections to get into that business. And Im a male.

You're not a programmer.

A programmer would've read what I wrote properly. The stats are, 12% of the game industry are female. I said way less than that are programmers.

As for citing... There's nces.ed.gov

Besides that let me quote you.

"Programmers, they are (mostly) not. And the notion that just because your clients are a certain gender then your business need to be of the same gender does not hold true in every industry out there, so why gaming?"

My line of work is market analysis. This evolved from web traffic to AB testing all sorts of things. A product that's already profitable can become 30% more profitable by having direct insight from a target demographic being on board the design process. I have some real stats on that being true over at adage.com

It's not feminist propaganda, but it is contrary to your paper plate thin way of thinking. 

a yo ho ho

  Rodentofdoom

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 273

7/19/14 9:17:00 AM#29
Originally posted by DMKano

 

Still what is it with girls and unicorns???

 

It's the horn.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12387

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

7/19/14 9:26:53 AM#30
Originally posted by adam_nox
We really need more females designing, writing, and managing big game development.  This focus on gender for the making of a small title is really the exact opposite of what would help gaming today.

Can you tell us which studios don't have females in the upper levels of their game design teams?

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  sumdumguy1

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/20/11
Posts: 740

7/19/14 9:30:42 AM#31
Gender should be irrelevant.  If girls make games great!  I imagine getting serious in the industry may be a bit challenging, but hopefully that doesn't curtail their desire.  As for this game, its certainly a start and hopefully this effort will be successful and perhaps a door opening for others to follow.
  zach_b

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/14
Posts: 28

7/19/14 9:31:49 AM#32
Originally posted by greenreen

You are entitled to your opinion. You weren't there and you didn't hear everything. I can expose nothing further without outing enough details to mention where I work. I have paperwork from the ALJ judge during my hearing and I don't think I need to expose that either to a disbeliever or mention how I ended up taking papers home after grabbing a stack which included reports which revealed that I was the lowest paid person in the office though I had been there longer before I started asking for raises. You see, I thought everyone was being paid badly like me and I was the only intern who worked for free. All other employees weren't supposed to "prove" they should be there by working for free for 6 mos. There are a lot of things you weren't told. As mentioned, I glazed things. I thought erroneously that I was treated equally until a chance occurrence grabbing an extra stack of papers in a meeting unrelated to my own because we were all sitting next to each other. Fate - who knows.

I think I put my boss in the good light, you see, he has kept me employed even with strife from his own wife. It's not because of my arrogance which I'm free to display here as a venting ground, it's because of my aptitude. I don't think he closes the door to hit on me. He's just a hard worker who likes to concentrate - it is his wife who pops into the office unannounced who had the issue. I think I absolutely have the right to keep things robotic to reduce gossip and you don't have any bearing on how I will act or continue to act. If you got to know my personality instead of focusing on my gender you would learn that I'm an INTJ - that means that I'm arrogant because I can be, not because I'm against men.  Also I am that annoying A student you hear about who was in advanced classes and read college level in grade school. I screwed up your curve lol   School yourself, read this.http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asp It will give you insight into my ways. I'm not just whistling dixie mon cher.

From one INTJ to another, you are not the portrait of the mastermind. Rather, you exhibit the most common psychological profile of the INTJ:  the low self-esteem narcissist. It's a character flaw and we all have them, you just haven't accepted yours yet.

  ryvendark

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/14
Posts: 148

7/19/14 10:50:46 AM#33
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
 

Let me spell it out to you and the others making similar 'progressive' statements as to why you're not seeing why it's news.

There's roughly 10% of the game industry out there who are female. 1 in 10 game development workers are women. Way less than that are in the programming side. There's a lot of planners, managers, and now artists who are female, but they don't get into the nitty gritty world of hardcore game design & programming because they're told that they can't. Not directly told, but it's a force out there.

 

That's the sexist victim way of seeing it. Another way of looking at it is up until a few years ago women on/in the internet game "world" were a myth. mmorpg = many men online role playing girls didn't become a joke because it wasn't true. It started because almost every female character in EQ/UO/vanila wow was a guy playing one.

In the early days of game development they didn't make games for them and girls weren't all that interested in them. That has a direct impact on how many decide to go into that field when they grow up.

There has been a massive change in that area over the last 10 years and girls/women are very common as players now. It's going to change the number of females that grow up wanting to make games too.

  Lawlmonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/09
Posts: 947

Take my advice, I'm not using it anyway.

7/19/14 10:51:08 AM#34

I think what really matters, rather than trying to force gender specific agendas into their art, is making a good game. Make a good game, and get attention for it being well made, because I couldn't care less if it was a team of men, women, aliens, or half-monkey half-dolphins who could be accredited the achievement.

 

That's right, I said it: half-monkey, half-dolphin.

"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  derek39

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/06
Posts: 122

i <3 MMO's

7/19/14 11:50:41 AM#35
Awful.

Monster Hunter Veteran since '04

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

7/19/14 12:19:35 PM#36
Originally posted by zach_b
Originally posted by greenreen

You are entitled to your opinion. You weren't there and you didn't hear everything. I can expose nothing further without outing enough details to mention where I work. I have paperwork from the ALJ judge during my hearing and I don't think I need to expose that either to a disbeliever or mention how I ended up taking papers home after grabbing a stack which included reports which revealed that I was the lowest paid person in the office though I had been there longer before I started asking for raises. You see, I thought everyone was being paid badly like me and I was the only intern who worked for free. All other employees weren't supposed to "prove" they should be there by working for free for 6 mos. There are a lot of things you weren't told. As mentioned, I glazed things. I thought erroneously that I was treated equally until a chance occurrence grabbing an extra stack of papers in a meeting unrelated to my own because we were all sitting next to each other. Fate - who knows.

I think I put my boss in the good light, you see, he has kept me employed even with strife from his own wife. It's not because of my arrogance which I'm free to display here as a venting ground, it's because of my aptitude. I don't think he closes the door to hit on me. He's just a hard worker who likes to concentrate - it is his wife who pops into the office unannounced who had the issue. I think I absolutely have the right to keep things robotic to reduce gossip and you don't have any bearing on how I will act or continue to act. If you got to know my personality instead of focusing on my gender you would learn that I'm an INTJ - that means that I'm arrogant because I can be, not because I'm against men.  Also I am that annoying A student you hear about who was in advanced classes and read college level in grade school. I screwed up your curve lol   School yourself, read this.http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asp It will give you insight into my ways. I'm not just whistling dixie mon cher.

From one INTJ to another, you are not the portrait of the mastermind. Rather, you exhibit the most common psychological profile of the INTJ:  the low self-esteem narcissist. It's a character flaw and we all have them, you just haven't accepted yours yet.

Well that's something I haven't heard before. You want to explain how I manage to be engulfed in myself yet don't like myself. An INTJ is prone to cut out people from their world they don't like. I know that I'm better than many people around me at many things and I'm completely aware of what I'm not good at. Public speaking is one thing I don't win points at but in turn I am quick witted so it's not the speaking part that's a problem it's the lack of banter. It's boring to repeat what I know to dead eyes, it's not boring to hear something else and trade thoughts on it especially if you touch on a subject that is something I have data about - then I can show some enthusiasm to add more data to your knowledge base. With what you know and what I know we can surely come up with something more interesting than what each of us know in singular space.

Now, when there is a 3 person group then I'm plenty comfortable yapping away but that's only because they will interrupt with data if needed changing the way I have to relay the data or perhaps cause me to rethink my previous thoughts when their information is taken into account. If you are honestly an INTJ then you know facts trump all. And you also know that facts can change like when the facts used to be that the sun revolved around the earth. That's why you have to go deeper and why you have to continually take in data to keep todays facts true tomorrow. 

P.S. Narcissists don't wear Birkenstocks for 5 years and they use other people for their own gains. I may come off arrogant but narcissist is impossible. I spend entirely too much energy being empathetic to ever be categorized that way. Just a few posts back of mine I talk deeply on this with free to play games and how I don't like the idea of others being exploited. I'm an open book but I've been called plenty of names in this post and I think I'm being very nice right now responding because if you think you know me just because you saw two posts of mine - you've got a lot to learn about humans.

This is my opinion on your "self esteem" claim. NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ7ONTA8MXA

People with low self esteem don't ask for a raise leveraging and vocalizing what they know to get it and they don't resolve situations themselves like extracting themselves from potentially career wrecking situations (see remotely working to avoid le wifey drama). If I disliked me I would be seeking others to fulfill me and fill up my nascent missing parts. I feel neither broken nor torn on this item of esteem. I also am able to find solutions to problems that come completely from - you guessed it - me - that's how anyone builds esteem. They do things well and look back on it with a puffed out chest then say - well look at me - I did that, seems I have some value on this rock.

Arrogant, competitive - check but not without reason and proof instead it's the explanation that sounds haughty because excelling at things is not the norm so when you encounter something in that realm you say it's impossible or arrogant. You can attribute those to me any day of the week you like because I understand why it's seen as arrogance instead of confidence based on knowledge. On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and throw a double in there on Saturday and Sunday because the office isn't open.

Sometimes I think the more I try to explain things the harder I make them to understand - I am going to stop editing these posts because they get exhaustive. I wish they had never told me that INTJs are hard for other people to understand and they have trouble communicating clearly because I'm taking insults as ignorance that requires explanation when it may just be stupidity not an interest in knowing at all. The amount of words and re-thinking needed to type out things without loopholes on the internet is awfully time consuming. I think now that I have to go too deep alienating the message because of all the explanation that has to take place around it. lol

Yessir, I need me some of them thar - that sucks posts. One liners would reduce the time I spend on other people.

  Ket_Viliano

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/14
Posts: 80

7/19/14 3:35:44 PM#37
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by zach_b
Originally posted by greenreen

You are entitled to your opinion. You weren't there and you didn't hear everything. I can expose nothing further without outing enough details to mention where I work. I have paperwork from the ALJ judge during my hearing and I don't think I need to expose that either to a disbeliever or mention how I ended up taking papers home after grabbing a stack which included reports which revealed that I was the lowest paid person in the office though I had been there longer before I started asking for raises. You see, I thought everyone was being paid badly like me and I was the only intern who worked for free. All other employees weren't supposed to "prove" they should be there by working for free for 6 mos. There are a lot of things you weren't told. As mentioned, I glazed things. I thought erroneously that I was treated equally until a chance occurrence grabbing an extra stack of papers in a meeting unrelated to my own because we were all sitting next to each other. Fate - who knows.

I think I put my boss in the good light, you see, he has kept me employed even with strife from his own wife. It's not because of my arrogance which I'm free to display here as a venting ground, it's because of my aptitude. I don't think he closes the door to hit on me. He's just a hard worker who likes to concentrate - it is his wife who pops into the office unannounced who had the issue. I think I absolutely have the right to keep things robotic to reduce gossip and you don't have any bearing on how I will act or continue to act. If you got to know my personality instead of focusing on my gender you would learn that I'm an INTJ - that means that I'm arrogant because I can be, not because I'm against men.  Also I am that annoying A student you hear about who was in advanced classes and read college level in grade school. I screwed up your curve lol   School yourself, read this.http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asp It will give you insight into my ways. I'm not just whistling dixie mon cher.

From one INTJ to another, you are not the portrait of the mastermind. Rather, you exhibit the most common psychological profile of the INTJ:  the low self-esteem narcissist. It's a character flaw and we all have them, you just haven't accepted yours yet.

Well that's something I haven't heard before. You want to explain how I manage to be engulfed in myself yet don't like myself. An INTJ is prone to cut out people from their world they don't like. I know that I'm better than many people around me at many things and I'm completely aware of what I'm not good at. Public speaking is one thing I don't win points at but in turn I am quick witted so it's not the speaking part that's a problem it's the lack of banter. It's boring to repeat what I know to dead eyes, it's not boring to hear something else and trade thoughts on it especially if you touch on a subject that is something I have data about - then I can show some enthusiasm to add more data to your knowledge base. With what you know and what I know we can surely come up with something more interesting than what each of us know in singular space.

Now, when there is a 3 person group then I'm plenty comfortable yapping away but that's only because they will interrupt with data if needed changing the way I have to relay the data or perhaps cause me to rethink my previous thoughts when their information is taken into account. If you are honestly an INTJ then you know facts trump all. And you also know that facts can change like when the facts used to be that the sun revolved around the earth. That's why you have to go deeper and why you have to continually take in data to keep todays facts true tomorrow. 

P.S. Narcissists don't wear Birkenstocks for 5 years and they use other people for their own gains. I may come off arrogant but narcissist is impossible. I spend entirely too much energy being empathetic to ever be categorized that way. Just a few posts back of mine I talk deeply on this with free to play games and how I don't like the idea of others being exploited. I'm an open book but I've been called plenty of names in this post and I think I'm being very nice right now responding because if you think you know me just because you saw two posts of mine - you've got a lot to learn about humans.

This is my opinion on your "self esteem" claim. NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ7ONTA8MXA

People with low self esteem don't ask for a raise leveraging and vocalizing what they know to get it and they don't resolve situations themselves like extracting themselves from potentially career wrecking situations (see remotely working to avoid le wifey drama). If I disliked me I would be seeking others to fulfill me and fill up my nascent missing parts. I feel neither broken nor torn on this item of esteem. I also am able to find solutions to problems that come completely from - you guessed it - me - that's how anyone builds esteem. They do things well and look back on it with a puffed out chest then say - well look at me - I did that, seems I have some value on this rock.

Arrogant, competitive - check but not without reason and proof instead it's the explanation that sounds haughty because excelling at things is not the norm so when you encounter something in that realm you say it's impossible or arrogant. You can attribute those to me any day of the week you like because I understand why it's seen as arrogance instead of confidence based on knowledge. On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and throw a double in there on Saturday and Sunday because the office isn't open.

Sometimes I think the more I try to explain things the harder I make them to understand - I am going to stop editing these posts because they get exhaustive. I wish they had never told me that INTJs are hard for other people to understand and they have trouble communicating clearly because I'm taking insults as ignorance that requires explanation when it may just be stupidity not an interest in knowing at all. The amount of words and re-thinking needed to type out things without loopholes on the internet is awfully time consuming. I think now that I have to go too deep alienating the message because of all the explanation that has to take place around it. lol

Yessir, I need me some of them thar - that sucks posts. One liners would reduce the time I spend on other people.

Narcissists just love to talk all about themselves, just like you. From one INTJ to another, you come across as arrogant, and self absorbed, for which there is never any justification.

  ryvendark

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/14
Posts: 148

7/19/14 3:44:04 PM#38
Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by zach_b
Originally posted by greenreen

You are entitled to your opinion. You weren't there and you didn't hear everything. I can expose nothing further without outing enough details to mention where I work. I have paperwork from the ALJ judge during my hearing and I don't think I need to expose that either to a disbeliever or mention how I ended up taking papers home after grabbing a stack which included reports which revealed that I was the lowest paid person in the office though I had been there longer before I started asking for raises. You see, I thought everyone was being paid badly like me and I was the only intern who worked for free. All other employees weren't supposed to "prove" they should be there by working for free for 6 mos. There are a lot of things you weren't told. As mentioned, I glazed things. I thought erroneously that I was treated equally until a chance occurrence grabbing an extra stack of papers in a meeting unrelated to my own because we were all sitting next to each other. Fate - who knows.

I think I put my boss in the good light, you see, he has kept me employed even with strife from his own wife. It's not because of my arrogance which I'm free to display here as a venting ground, it's because of my aptitude. I don't think he closes the door to hit on me. He's just a hard worker who likes to concentrate - it is his wife who pops into the office unannounced who had the issue. I think I absolutely have the right to keep things robotic to reduce gossip and you don't have any bearing on how I will act or continue to act. If you got to know my personality instead of focusing on my gender you would learn that I'm an INTJ - that means that I'm arrogant because I can be, not because I'm against men.  Also I am that annoying A student you hear about who was in advanced classes and read college level in grade school. I screwed up your curve lol   School yourself, read this.http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asp It will give you insight into my ways. I'm not just whistling dixie mon cher.

From one INTJ to another, you are not the portrait of the mastermind. Rather, you exhibit the most common psychological profile of the INTJ:  the low self-esteem narcissist. It's a character flaw and we all have them, you just haven't accepted yours yet.

Well that's something I haven't heard before. You want to explain how I manage to be engulfed in myself yet don't like myself. An INTJ is prone to cut out people from their world they don't like. I know that I'm better than many people around me at many things and I'm completely aware of what I'm not good at. Public speaking is one thing I don't win points at but in turn I am quick witted so it's not the speaking part that's a problem it's the lack of banter. It's boring to repeat what I know to dead eyes, it's not boring to hear something else and trade thoughts on it especially if you touch on a subject that is something I have data about - then I can show some enthusiasm to add more data to your knowledge base. With what you know and what I know we can surely come up with something more interesting than what each of us know in singular space.

Now, when there is a 3 person group then I'm plenty comfortable yapping away but that's only because they will interrupt with data if needed changing the way I have to relay the data or perhaps cause me to rethink my previous thoughts when their information is taken into account. If you are honestly an INTJ then you know facts trump all. And you also know that facts can change like when the facts used to be that the sun revolved around the earth. That's why you have to go deeper and why you have to continually take in data to keep todays facts true tomorrow. 

P.S. Narcissists don't wear Birkenstocks for 5 years and they use other people for their own gains. I may come off arrogant but narcissist is impossible. I spend entirely too much energy being empathetic to ever be categorized that way. Just a few posts back of mine I talk deeply on this with free to play games and how I don't like the idea of others being exploited. I'm an open book but I've been called plenty of names in this post and I think I'm being very nice right now responding because if you think you know me just because you saw two posts of mine - you've got a lot to learn about humans.

This is my opinion on your "self esteem" claim. NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ7ONTA8MXA

People with low self esteem don't ask for a raise leveraging and vocalizing what they know to get it and they don't resolve situations themselves like extracting themselves from potentially career wrecking situations (see remotely working to avoid le wifey drama). If I disliked me I would be seeking others to fulfill me and fill up my nascent missing parts. I feel neither broken nor torn on this item of esteem. I also am able to find solutions to problems that come completely from - you guessed it - me - that's how anyone builds esteem. They do things well and look back on it with a puffed out chest then say - well look at me - I did that, seems I have some value on this rock.

Arrogant, competitive - check but not without reason and proof instead it's the explanation that sounds haughty because excelling at things is not the norm so when you encounter something in that realm you say it's impossible or arrogant. You can attribute those to me any day of the week you like because I understand why it's seen as arrogance instead of confidence based on knowledge. On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and throw a double in there on Saturday and Sunday because the office isn't open.

Sometimes I think the more I try to explain things the harder I make them to understand - I am going to stop editing these posts because they get exhaustive. I wish they had never told me that INTJs are hard for other people to understand and they have trouble communicating clearly because I'm taking insults as ignorance that requires explanation when it may just be stupidity not an interest in knowing at all. The amount of words and re-thinking needed to type out things without loopholes on the internet is awfully time consuming. I think now that I have to go too deep alienating the message because of all the explanation that has to take place around it. lol

Yessir, I need me some of them thar - that sucks posts. One liners would reduce the time I spend on other people.

Narcissists just love to talk all about themselves, just like you. 

I think the not a narcissists thing is a hard sell for someone to make when they turn a thread about girls making games into ...a long long rant about themselves. With waaaaay too much information on a public game forum.

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

7/19/14 4:53:57 PM#39
Originally posted by ryvendark
Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by zach_b
Originally posted by greenreen

You are entitled to your opinion. You weren't there and you didn't hear everything. I can expose nothing further without outing enough details to mention where I work. I have paperwork from the ALJ judge during my hearing and I don't think I need to expose that either to a disbeliever or mention how I ended up taking papers home after grabbing a stack which included reports which revealed that I was the lowest paid person in the office though I had been there longer before I started asking for raises. You see, I thought everyone was being paid badly like me and I was the only intern who worked for free. All other employees weren't supposed to "prove" they should be there by working for free for 6 mos. There are a lot of things you weren't told. As mentioned, I glazed things. I thought erroneously that I was treated equally until a chance occurrence grabbing an extra stack of papers in a meeting unrelated to my own because we were all sitting next to each other. Fate - who knows.

I think I put my boss in the good light, you see, he has kept me employed even with strife from his own wife. It's not because of my arrogance which I'm free to display here as a venting ground, it's because of my aptitude. I don't think he closes the door to hit on me. He's just a hard worker who likes to concentrate - it is his wife who pops into the office unannounced who had the issue. I think I absolutely have the right to keep things robotic to reduce gossip and you don't have any bearing on how I will act or continue to act. If you got to know my personality instead of focusing on my gender you would learn that I'm an INTJ - that means that I'm arrogant because I can be, not because I'm against men.  Also I am that annoying A student you hear about who was in advanced classes and read college level in grade school. I screwed up your curve lol   School yourself, read this.http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asp It will give you insight into my ways. I'm not just whistling dixie mon cher.

From one INTJ to another, you are not the portrait of the mastermind. Rather, you exhibit the most common psychological profile of the INTJ:  the low self-esteem narcissist. It's a character flaw and we all have them, you just haven't accepted yours yet.

Well that's something I haven't heard before. You want to explain how I manage to be engulfed in myself yet don't like myself. An INTJ is prone to cut out people from their world they don't like. I know that I'm better than many people around me at many things and I'm completely aware of what I'm not good at. Public speaking is one thing I don't win points at but in turn I am quick witted so it's not the speaking part that's a problem it's the lack of banter. It's boring to repeat what I know to dead eyes, it's not boring to hear something else and trade thoughts on it especially if you touch on a subject that is something I have data about - then I can show some enthusiasm to add more data to your knowledge base. With what you know and what I know we can surely come up with something more interesting than what each of us know in singular space.

Now, when there is a 3 person group then I'm plenty comfortable yapping away but that's only because they will interrupt with data if needed changing the way I have to relay the data or perhaps cause me to rethink my previous thoughts when their information is taken into account. If you are honestly an INTJ then you know facts trump all. And you also know that facts can change like when the facts used to be that the sun revolved around the earth. That's why you have to go deeper and why you have to continually take in data to keep todays facts true tomorrow. 

P.S. Narcissists don't wear Birkenstocks for 5 years and they use other people for their own gains. I may come off arrogant but narcissist is impossible. I spend entirely too much energy being empathetic to ever be categorized that way. Just a few posts back of mine I talk deeply on this with free to play games and how I don't like the idea of others being exploited. I'm an open book but I've been called plenty of names in this post and I think I'm being very nice right now responding because if you think you know me just because you saw two posts of mine - you've got a lot to learn about humans.

This is my opinion on your "self esteem" claim. NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ7ONTA8MXA

People with low self esteem don't ask for a raise leveraging and vocalizing what they know to get it and they don't resolve situations themselves like extracting themselves from potentially career wrecking situations (see remotely working to avoid le wifey drama). If I disliked me I would be seeking others to fulfill me and fill up my nascent missing parts. I feel neither broken nor torn on this item of esteem. I also am able to find solutions to problems that come completely from - you guessed it - me - that's how anyone builds esteem. They do things well and look back on it with a puffed out chest then say - well look at me - I did that, seems I have some value on this rock.

Arrogant, competitive - check but not without reason and proof instead it's the explanation that sounds haughty because excelling at things is not the norm so when you encounter something in that realm you say it's impossible or arrogant. You can attribute those to me any day of the week you like because I understand why it's seen as arrogance instead of confidence based on knowledge. On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and throw a double in there on Saturday and Sunday because the office isn't open.

Sometimes I think the more I try to explain things the harder I make them to understand - I am going to stop editing these posts because they get exhaustive. I wish they had never told me that INTJs are hard for other people to understand and they have trouble communicating clearly because I'm taking insults as ignorance that requires explanation when it may just be stupidity not an interest in knowing at all. The amount of words and re-thinking needed to type out things without loopholes on the internet is awfully time consuming. I think now that I have to go too deep alienating the message because of all the explanation that has to take place around it. lol

Yessir, I need me some of them thar - that sucks posts. One liners would reduce the time I spend on other people.

Narcissists just love to talk all about themselves, just like you. 

I think the not a narcissists thing is a hard sell for someone to make when they turn a thread about girls making games into ...a long long rant about themselves. With waaaaay too much information on a public game forum.

See how convenient that is. You quote me, make an accusation and I respond with logic and reason to which you repeat the same content with no added content as if saying something thrice or in duplicate makes it true. Proving firstly that this wasn't about me, it was about you feeling unnoticed because what oh what did you have to contribute to the topic other than taking pot shots. Careful there, your self esteem halo is faltering. Secondly that you had nothing to back up your statements and when I back up mine you accuse me of filling a donut hole you've created in your head that exists in you. If I talk, I'm a narcissist, if I don't I'm shut up because of your superior diagNONSENSE.

This is all you need forward.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-psychological-projection.htm

As for the onlooker interested in getting involved in other people's business looking for a bandwagon to follow - come up with an argument that has merit based on evidence rather that a person responding to things directed at them instead of those who create things that attempt to make them eventful in the conversation. Don't jump on a bandwagon without the skill to compete. Whistle.

  ryvendark

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/14
Posts: 148

7/19/14 5:06:18 PM#40
Originally posted by greenreen
 

See how convenient that is. You quote me, make an accusation and I respond with logic and reason to which you repeat the same content with no added content as if saying something thrice or in duplicate makes it true. Proving firstly that this wasn't about me, it was about you feeling unnoticed. Secondly that you had nothing to back up your statements and when I back up mine you accuse me of filling a donut hole you've created in your head that exists in you.

This is all you need forward.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-psychological-projection.htm

As for the onlooker interested in getting involved in other people's business looking for a bandwagon to follow - come up with an argument that has merit based on evidence rather that a person responding to things directed at them instead of those who create things that attempt to make them eventful in the conversation. Don't jump on a bandwagon without the skill to compete. Whistle.

It's a public forum. You shouldn't have started a conversation that needed to be " your business" in the first place. Nothing about this thread ever needed to be you the victim or become a personal story at all. Next time try not spilling your personal shit to a bunch of strangers in the first place and it wont become a thread about you.

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