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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMO gamers don't know what they want in a game

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77 posts found
  Joeyjojoshabadu

Elite Member

Joined: 5/21/14
Posts: 72

7/08/14 1:05:41 AM#41

Couple of things:

1) Every game will have gushing fans and people who hate it. Through the magic of selective bias it may seem to be either too much unjustified negativity (if you love the game) or mindless fanboism (if you hate the game). People do know what they want and what they like. And what they don't like. Both views will be aired for any game, unsurprisingly.

2) Innovation and change isn't automatically good. In fact, more often than not it is done badly. People do ask for innovation, but not if it's poorly designed/implemented. Again, perfectly justified and unsurprising.

You may have to consider that the games you love may have deserved their poor reputation, lacklustre reception and low retention. Strangely enough, the best way to get lots of subs and high regard is to make a fun, engaging game.

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4737

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

7/08/14 8:19:58 AM#42


Originally posted by svandy

Originally posted by Distopia

We have seen this list before when a MMO get close to what you want   it looks likes your dream MMO but it will fall flatt. Dreams dont belong in this thread.
Well that's one way to prove your point, dismiss everything that isn't in line with it.
Thats how it usually goes it would seem. God forbid someone around here engages in an intellectual discussion about their supposed hobby instead of a bunch of "me too!" responses.

@Foomerang: Yes, how dare I have standards. Its silly to expect someone to just accept whatever the next big MMO is with open arms. If I know I won't like it, I won't play it. The real problem is people who think that because Person A doesn't like Person B, C, and D's favorite game - person A is a troll. Meanwhile B, C, and D will abandon said game in a month for the next big release anyway and never speak of it again (Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls, and likely soon Wildstar).

MMOs are stale and if you refuse to admit it, you're part of the problem not the solution. I personally vote with my wallet, I don't see how this makes me a "bitter vet," or whatever you were trying to insinuate.

And yes, a non instanced WoW would pretty much be amazing in my book. Or at least remove Group Finder and I am down, or make it so you have to walk to the instance to queue up. IM SO HARD TO PLEASE OMG.


Why isnt there ever a middle ground here? If you can't shit on everything then obviously you're blindly running in with open arms, right? I am critical of the games I play and I also enjoy the things they do right. The point is, Im playing. I don't scrutinize my way out of a genre.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1232

7/08/14 12:35:18 PM#43

Speak for yourself. I know what I want in a game.

 

#1. Fluid and Superior Animations

#2. Gigantic and Seamless World with World Housing, Player-Built Cities

#3. No "Go here, go there" quest hub bouncing.

#4. No "Battlegrounds".

#5. World PvP with meaning, e.g., ability to control entire continents and cities etc...   not just some dedicated zone or area.

#6. Deep and Complex crafting (This should be a game in itself).

#7. Variety of Social Hubs with incentives to use them, e.g., Taverns, INNs, cantinas, gambling areas, etc.

#8. Deep aesthetic customization. The best customization I've seen in any game is All Point Bulletin (APB).

 

People are constantly whining because we are spoon-fed the same crud, e.g., quest hub to quest hub / story progression with end-game battleground redundancy. GW2, ESO, SWTOR, AOC, WAR, AION, STO, WOW, EQ2, etc...  All the same crap.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1316

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/08/14 3:59:20 PM#44

I want EQ1 circa 2000 pretty much.

1. Sizeable hostile world to explore. Not huge since huge often means empty.
2. No quest hubs
3. No cash shop
4. Amazing, elaborate, deep dungeons
6. Magical gear is fairly rare and difficult to obtain. Coin is hard to come by.
7. True day/night cycle where night is pitch black unless you have a light source or special vision.
8. No auction house/broker
9. No mounts, at least until years after launch.
10. Fun crafting and activities like fishing.

What EQ1 did not get right, and the reason millions played (and quit), is that EQ1 evolved into a different game every six months. Pretty quickly 99% of folks realized they couldn't stay relevant and left; with only the fanatical few and viral growth to sustain the population.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

7/08/14 4:03:51 PM#45
Originally posted by Torgrim

I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

I wouldn't call selling 3.6M copies (GW2) in the first week "doing it wrong" or making $200M+ in 2013 (TOR) "doing it wrong".

May be you don't like it ... but certainly not "wrong" in the eyes of the devs.

  Octagon7711

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 323

Devs please nerf paper it's overpowered I'm rock which is fine scissors are fine.

7/08/14 4:57:59 PM#46
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Ugh, strongly disagree.  MMO players are not a unified group; different MMO players are asking for completely different things.  Some of them are more self-aware than others and more accurate about asking for things they would actually enjoy.  Some are very easy-going and don't ask for anything.

Agreed.  Players can't be put into one group cause everyone has a different play style and a players needs change from day to day.  Never will be a game that everyone who plays it says it great.

 

Nobodies fault, just the way things are.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6563

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

7/08/14 5:01:08 PM#47

There are ONLY two types of mmorpg's so not like it is not EASY to know what i want.Well there is 3 IF you include what EQ Landmark and NEXT are TRYING to do but that is not a COMPLETE effort that is splitting two ideas apart.

1 FFXI zero hand holding,you must discover and unfold everything for yourself at least until the internet fills up wikipedia.

2 WOW/EQ2 ect ect.Chase yellow markers around all game until end level.Tons if not EVERYTHING is hand holding.

My choice is easy,i want a FFXI type game with of course technical advancements of the modern era and some tweaks to improve it.So you can see i know exactly what i want,i am not like the modern day game hopper,i stuck with FFXI for over 10 years even while i played MANY other games.You have to of course TRY other games along the way,you never know when a gem might come along,that is how i found FFXI and EQ2 and VG,otherwise i would have continued to play FPS's.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 4789

7/08/14 5:02:26 PM#48

actually for me personally there are some MMOs that I like as it just so happens that what it has was exactly what I was looking for (what I like) and the MMOs that I don't care much for actually contained mostly items I didn't like.

 

so for me the formula actually works well

Does you MMO have rainbow sprinkles?

  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 541

7/08/14 5:08:50 PM#49
Originally posted by Wizardry

There are ONLY two types of mmorpg's

 

Only 2?  Themepark and sandbox, I'm guessing?  Personally I'd consider RTSes to be a third type, and there are all these social gaming sites composed of a forum plus minigames which are MMO-like, if not really 100% MMOs...  Have you ever tried something like Flight Rising?

  Kiljaedenas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 461

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

7/08/14 5:11:56 PM#50
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

All the games you listed are extremely similar...

 

And GW2 and ESO were actually the nicest breaths of fresh air we've gotten in a long time, but its STILL stale air. And it had many other problems.

Agreed.  While GW2 and ESO changed up some features, at their core they are still the same game we've been playing since WOW released (and some would argue since EQ1)

There were other directions games could have gone, and did go, UO, AC1, DAOC, SWG, FFXI, all of these are markedly different in direction, much as EVE currently is, and that's what some of us want to seem, games that follow a different design path besides the standard.

 

I agree with that too. Problem is, most developers aren't willing to take that risk. They want a "guaranteed win", a predictable profit. They aren't willing to completely go out on a limb and invent something actually creative and new. This can be understandable at times, making an MMO can take quite a bit of money so if it does ultimately fall flat because their idea just doesn't work, they're really in the red and could close down.

Finding a developer that has

a) top notch planners, designers and programmers to get whatever they decide to design functioning well, and

b) the chops to take a real risk and venture completely into the unknown

is really what is needed. Those are very, very VERY rare.

Where's the any key?

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1026

7/08/14 5:51:40 PM#51
Personally I'm proud to say that I don't know what I want. I expect developers to come up with ideas and implement them. I'll check them out, and if it turns out that I enjoy them, then you've got me as a loyal customer. Surprise me!
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

7/08/14 5:56:08 PM#52
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

b) the chops to take a real risk and venture completely into the unknown

is really what is needed. Those are very, very VERY rare.

Why?

There are plenty of good games that are not "venture completely into the unknown".

Xcom Enemy Unknown, Dishonored, Deus Ex Human Evolution, ...... you don't need to be completely new to be entertaining. In fact, it is much more about the polish, implementation, and details than totally new ideas.

Even games like Borderland is not totally new .. but a clever combination of old ideas.

  Greymantle4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 663

7/08/14 6:12:03 PM#53

I'm tired of finding a MMO I love and then  they change the game to be something else from what it was at the start. This happens to every MMO I have played and fell in love with. The only one that has stayed close to release that I played is Eve Online but it's to pvp focused for me.

 

What I want you ask? I want a SWG with updated interface and graphics and support that sticks to the core game play. This would make me a happy camper.

  GuyClinch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/13
Posts: 475

7/09/14 1:26:42 AM#54

I think they know what they want in a game - the problem is the imagination of the players exceeds the ability of the developers.

1) They want 'something'  better then the holy trinity that still really encourages teamwork but doesn't pigeon hole people into roles.

2) They want something that has endless content - but content that is as high quality as the scripted content in ESO and SWTOR - or higher.

3) They want games that really reward solo play - and are tons of fun to play solo but at the same time they want to play a game where people are dying to play with them.

4) They want a vast and beautiful world where every nook and cranny can be explored - and where its useful and fun to do so..

5) They want old school dungeons where you could get lost forever that have the complexity and difficulty of the instanced dungeons and are magically balanced just to your actual groups skill level.

I think we are very far away from being able to please the bitter vets. Right now we just get variations of the older games. We have 'super casual' - GW2. Its free. Its super casual. It's pretty. Alot of the content is easy. You finish it quick. We get "BC" WoW - aka Wildstar with more actiony combat. We get ESO with its SWTOR feel without the lame star wars stuff..

All of these games are actually pretty good - but for whatever reason they lack the wow factor that games like EQ had. Mostly because EQ went from text MUD to graphics.. So it was a huge step up..

The bitter vets are looking for something like Sword Art Online ..and they aren't finding it. But its not that developers don't want to do it. Its that they CANNOT do it. Look for similiar waves of disappoint with regards to EQ:Next.  And this cycle will continue until someone figures out how to make the servers 'smarter.' like a real dungeon master IRL.

 

 

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 547

7/09/14 7:56:13 AM#55


Originally posted by GuyClinch
I think they know what they want in a game - the problem is the imagination of the players exceeds the ability of the developers.

1) They want 'something'  better then the holy trinity that still really encourages teamwork but doesn't pigeon hole people into roles.

2) They want something that has endless content - but content that is as high quality as the scripted content in ESO and SWTOR - or higher.

3) They want games that really reward solo play - and are tons of fun to play solo but at the same time they want to play a game where people are dying to play with them.

4) They want a vast and beautiful world where every nook and cranny can be explored - and where its useful and fun to do so..

5) They want old school dungeons where you could get lost forever that have the complexity and difficulty of the instanced dungeons and are magically balanced just to your actual groups skill level.

I think we are very far away from being able to please the bitter vets. Right now we just get variations of the older games. We have 'super casual' - GW2. Its free. Its super casual. It's pretty. Alot of the content is easy. You finish it quick. We get "BC" WoW - aka Wildstar with more actiony combat. We get ESO with its SWTOR feel without the lame star wars stuff..

All of these games are actually pretty good - but for whatever reason they lack the wow factor that games like EQ had. Mostly because EQ went from text MUD to graphics.. So it was a huge step up..

The bitter vets are looking for something like Sword Art Online ..and they aren't finding it. But its not that developers don't want to do it. Its that they CANNOT do it. Look for similiar waves of disappoint with regards to EQ:Next.  And this cycle will continue until someone figures out how to make the servers 'smarter.' like a real dungeon master IRL.

 

 



That "the problem is the imagination of the players exceeds the ability of the developers.
" only becomes a problem if you get greedy. If you design for and market towards ONLY what you can actually BUILD one may find greater success in actually satisfying a portion of the market. But if one wants to be a moron and try to cram groupers/soloers/raiders/worldpvprs/duelers/Rvr's/roleplayers/questwhores/content locust/and on and on and on; into the same game with all the supporting feature sets/systems into a single titel you spent less than an entire lifetime and 2-10billion building dont' be surprised when you come up short. Stupid never dies

  Beowulfsam

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/11
Posts: 77

7/09/14 8:47:49 AM#56
Originally posted by Torgrim

For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

No matter how you make an MMO, with the amount of players out there, there will be people that don't like some aspect of it. Thus if you went to the forums and compiled all the complaints about pretty much every MMO, you could deduce that every MMO out there is garbage :)

And by the nature of people (well, my own opinion), people who have a complaint are much faster to race to the forums and complain, than the people that enjoy the game. So ultimately it's down to how many people started the game and how many are still playing after 1-3-6-X months.

 

Still, TESO and Wildstar, as the two latest, are with their share of problems. I can not in good conscience say either game is good. TESO mainly for the combat + some other PVE and PVP design choices.

Wildstar is well...combat is decent, but the game as a whole is tedious as hell, even if I disregard bugs galore (some of which are in the game since alfa/CBT), there is also the fact that they spend their time changing stuff that makes for slower player progress and still not touch gamebreaking bugs in the same instances that actually make you unable to finish the instance and the fact that the PvP is in a sorry ass state (again, they were told in CBT if not alfa what would happen if they release PvP as is, and our guildleader actually got told off  in alfa testing by the dev to GTFO if he has nothing constructive to add when he was trying to get his point across that PvP won't work well as is, that was precious. And a lesson I guess: devs like to listen to fanboys that kiss their asses, skills and gaming insight are not important). 

 

Dunno, I personally have become less tolerant how companies make games (any games). So many are not fit to be even in open beta, let alone released, yet they still release, taking money, making promises, doing jackshit or doing the wrong (ok, this is subjective) things. I'm hard pressed to find any other industry in which customers can get half finished products (which they don't even own in case of MMOs I might add) and the companies get away with it. And it pisses me off a bit :)

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4070

7/09/14 8:55:00 AM#57
Originally posted by Torgrim

For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

Well the two games you mentioned basically tweaked a few features of the standard themepark mmorpg and at the end of the day are basically just like any other themepark mmos...

 

The thing is people will always wine about something as we all like different things and want different things from our games..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 187

7/09/14 9:05:00 AM#58
Originally posted by Torgrim
We all know how our dream MMO should be, but we are gamers we cant get that dream unless you win the euro jackpot.

LOL this about right. Im only partially agree about MMO gamers doesn't know what they want, since you only stated "MMO gamers" I assume you are talking about everyone that plays MMO, and that is untrue, like you just stated above, "We all know how our dream MMO should be" <-- is pretty much we know what we want, but no one have yet approached it. I definitely know what I want, a game that is exactly like After CU SWG. Definitely more freedom, more sandboxy element, no limitation to pvp (open pvp) BUT with penalties to PK, so far only a few game have this "jail system". I like to see more of this system implemented in an open pvp sandbox mmorpg.

 

  Alcop0ps

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/14
Posts: 18

Playing: World of Warcraft, SMITE & Diablo 3 Reaper of Souls.

7/09/14 9:06:16 AM#59
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Ugh, strongly disagree.  MMO players are not a unified group; different MMO players are asking for completely different things.  Some of them are more self-aware than others and more accurate about asking for things they would actually enjoy.  Some are very easy-going and don't ask for anything.

I totally agree with this.

You really can't put ALL MMO players in one group. I personally don't think we "don't know what we want", we just all have way too many ideas and opinions on those ideas to implement them; hence why the devs do what they think or they do what works for most MMOs. They stick to the safe route even if it's not everyones cup of tea. That's just my opinion, though.

  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 187

7/09/14 9:06:28 AM#60
Originally posted by Beowulfsam
Originally posted by Torgrim

For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

No matter how you make an MMO, with the amount of players out there, there will be people that don't like some aspect of it. Thus if you went to the forums and compiled all the complaints about pretty much every MMO, you could deduce that every MMO out there is garbage :)

And by the nature of people (well, my own opinion), people who have a complaint are much faster to race to the forums and complain, than the people that enjoy the game. So ultimately it's down to how many people started the game and how many are still playing after 1-3-6-X months.

 

Still, TESO and Wildstar, as the two latest, are with their share of problems. I can not in good conscience say either game is good. TESO mainly for the combat + some other PVE and PVP design choices.

Wildstar is well...combat is decent, but the game as a whole is tedious as hell, even if I disregard bugs galore (some of which are in the game since alfa/CBT), there is also the fact that they spend their time changing stuff that makes for slower player progress and still not touch gamebreaking bugs in the same instances that actually make you unable to finish the instance and the fact that the PvP is in a sorry ass state (again, they were told in CBT if not alfa what would happen if they release PvP as is, and our guildleader actually got told off  in alfa testing by the dev to GTFO if he has nothing constructive to add when he was trying to get his point across that PvP won't work well as is, that was precious. And a lesson I guess: devs like to listen to fanboys that kiss their asses, skills and gaming insight are not important). 

 

Dunno, I personally have become less tolerant how companies make games (any games). So many are not fit to be even in open beta, let alone released, yet they still release, taking money, making promises, doing jackshit or doing the wrong (ok, this is subjective) things. I'm hard pressed to find any other industry in which customers can get half finished products (which they don't even own in case of MMOs I might add) and the companies get away with it. And it pisses me off a bit :)

So far from what I learnt is that game publisher and developers are like politicians, they promise many things and does not meet those 90% of the promises (maybe less).

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