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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Divinity: Original Sin is Based on classic gaming. Currently Number 1 on Steam, has completely payed for its development

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69 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22277

7/08/14 6:36:15 PM#41
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

If you look however at how many articles are being written about indies one would think 'if they are not doing as well as AAA then why isn't there 20 times more articles about AAA games'. why would the press be writing stories about games people don't seem to care about?

 

Because they are novel? And there are more articles about AAA games than indie games. And no one says "more article" = "better games".

There are plenty of articles of failure of games too.

 

  MrMelGibson

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/13
Posts: 715

7/08/14 6:36:47 PM#42
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by MrMelGibson

.

Thing is, the AAA games are usually a lot better then most indies.  Personally, I have only seen a few indies even worth my money.  AAA games on the other hand have launched a ton of good games in the last few years.  Hell, I still have a mile long backlog of AAA games.  Can't say the same for indies.  

 

It might just be that indies are still pretty new and still haven't caught on for everyone.  Maybe at some point they might even surpass AAA titles.  That time is not now though.

I could not disagree more.

BUT that is both of our opinion.

If you look however at how many articles are being written about indies one would think 'if they are not doing as well as AAA then why isn't there 20 times more articles about AAA games'. why would the press be writing stories about games people don't seem to care about?

 

kinda odd

I agree with you on the red part.  The articles you are talking about are just news fillers between AAA game launches.  Not to mention it's a fairly new sub-genre.  So people want to hear about it.  Then again, just look at the home page on this site for example.  Other then the Divinity review, where are all these indie articles you are talking about?  Go to PCGamer, Gameinformer.  The articles about AAA games to indies is a 1000 to 1.  Not really sure where you are getting this idea that indies are taking over.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5411

7/08/14 6:41:47 PM#43
Originally posted by MrMelGibson
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by MrMelGibson

.

Thing is, the AAA games are usually a lot better then most indies.  Personally, I have only seen a few indies even worth my money.  AAA games on the other hand have launched a ton of good games in the last few years.  Hell, I still have a mile long backlog of AAA games.  Can't say the same for indies.  

 

It might just be that indies are still pretty new and still haven't caught on for everyone.  Maybe at some point they might even surpass AAA titles.  That time is not now though.

I could not disagree more.

BUT that is both of our opinion.

If you look however at how many articles are being written about indies one would think 'if they are not doing as well as AAA then why isn't there 20 times more articles about AAA games'. why would the press be writing stories about games people don't seem to care about?

 

kinda odd

I agree with you on the red part.  The articles you are talking about are just news fillers between AAA game launches.  Not to mention it's a fairly new sub-genre.  So people want to hear about it.  Then again, just look at the home page on this site for example.  Other then the Divinity review, where are all these indie articles you are talking about?  Go to PCGamer, Gameinformer.  The articles about AAA games to indies is a 1000 to 1.  Not really sure where you are getting this idea that indies are taking over.

if there are more articles about indie games then does it not suggest that there are people who are also interested in them? Think about it for a second.

Also, I want to break this out mathematically a bit.

Lets say that for every developer you get a 1 quality rating.

So company X with 10 developers is expected to have a quality 10 game where company Y with 200 developers is expected to have 200 quality game.

If company X produces a game that is 11 (recall this is the one with 10 devs). Then it becomes very curious indeeded. Questions become well, if company Y does the same then they would be higher than 200 as well.

Thus if a company X even comes close to company Y in quality is a HUGE thing.

I argue (granted in my view) that many indie games EXCEED company Y making the ratio obscene

Correlation does not imply causation

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22277

7/08/14 6:47:37 PM#44
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

So company X with 10 developers is expected to have a quality 10 game where company Y with 200 developers is expected to have 200 quality game.

bad assumption.

Quality is not linear in resources. In fact, anyone who work in business know that is not true.

 

  MrMelGibson

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/13
Posts: 715

7/08/14 6:48:49 PM#45
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by MrMelGibson
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by MrMelGibson

.

Thing is, the AAA games are usually a lot better then most indies.  Personally, I have only seen a few indies even worth my money.  AAA games on the other hand have launched a ton of good games in the last few years.  Hell, I still have a mile long backlog of AAA games.  Can't say the same for indies.  

 

It might just be that indies are still pretty new and still haven't caught on for everyone.  Maybe at some point they might even surpass AAA titles.  That time is not now though.

I could not disagree more.

BUT that is both of our opinion.

If you look however at how many articles are being written about indies one would think 'if they are not doing as well as AAA then why isn't there 20 times more articles about AAA games'. why would the press be writing stories about games people don't seem to care about?

 

kinda odd

I agree with you on the red part.  The articles you are talking about are just news fillers between AAA game launches.  Not to mention it's a fairly new sub-genre.  So people want to hear about it.  Then again, just look at the home page on this site for example.  Other then the Divinity review, where are all these indie articles you are talking about?  Go to PCGamer, Gameinformer.  The articles about AAA games to indies is a 1000 to 1.  Not really sure where you are getting this idea that indies are taking over.

if there are more articles about indie games then does it not suggest that there are people who are also interested in them? Think about it for a second.

Also, I want to break this out mathematically a bit.

Lets say that for every developer you get a 1 quality rating.

So company X with 10 developers is expected to have a quality 10 game where company Y with 200 developers is expected to have 200 quality game.

If company X produces a game that is 11 (recall this is the one with 10 devs). Then it becomes very curious indeeded. Questions become well, if company Y does the same then they would be higher than 200 as well.

Thus if a company X even comes close to company Y in quality is a HUGE thing.

I argue (granted in my view) that many indie games EXCEED company Y making the ratio obscene

You are looking into this a lot deeper then I am.  See, I just look to see which game is more fun for me.  99% of time it's a AAA game.  I don't care if the game had 10 developers or 1000.  If the game is not fun, what do I care about the algorithm involved?

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2358

7/08/14 6:53:09 PM#46
Originally posted by sludgebeard

Yet a game that is essentially EQ Classic with better graphics is out of the question, wont sell well...

 

MMO Fan Logic wins again!

 Are you confused?

 Divinity is nothing like EQ classic so I don't see your point

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5411

7/08/14 6:53:31 PM#47
Originally posted by MrMelGibson

 

You are looking into this a lot deeper then I am.  See, I just look to see which game is more fun for me.  99% of time it's a AAA game.  I don't care if the game had 10 developers or 1000.  If the game is not fun, what do I care about the algorithm involved?

I can understand that. I however prefer indies to AAA because I find the game play better.

However the reason I say this is because its highly unfair to suggest a team of 10 should sell more or be better than a team of 200 in order of the point to be valid. very unfair.

Correlation does not imply causation

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2358

7/08/14 7:05:27 PM#48
Originally posted by sludgebeard
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by DMKano

OP - SoE is not going to spend 100mil to recreate something that has less than 100-200k players even interested in, the active playerbase after a month would most likely be around 50k players.

Expensive MMO projects need a huge playerbase.

Can't compare that to a small budge game.

to be honest....f8ck sony.

No longer are the days where millions of players are needed to fund a game we like.

extreemly small teams (like 10 or less developers) are creating games in mass that people want. Such small budget games do not need millions of players to cover the cost.

 

Its a great day for gaming, a bad day for large gaming companies

+1, Bravo, CHEERS!

 

Seriously this is the point, big companys are starting to be overshadowed by the little guys. If Divinty Devs can make a game based off a Turn-Based RPG genre that was popular in 90-fucking-5, there is no reason we can see Classic MMO gaming make the rise once more. 

 

Leave out the fact Im in love with the idea of a modern EQ and just think of making a game Liken to that, and you have a perfect niche game with a proven fanbase. 

 

And please, dont cite Pantheon as an excuse to why this wouldnt work out. Panth is headed by Brad Mcquaid, who since Vanguard has had a bullseye on his back and a cloud over his head to the gaming world. Some sad individuals will never let that man rest *cough ReROLLED cough*.

 

If there was a game being made like classic EQ right now it would sell, it would turn a profit, and the fact that SOE doesnt realize that further shows their lack of knowledge about their fanbase, old and new.

 Your comparing apples to oranges and as already pointed out in EQ's case your math simply doesn't add up.

 As to Brad how many breaks does the man need? He names his own salary, decided when he'll get advances took 40% of the developement fund for Pantheon to pay hiself without telling anyone else on the team till they found out he had gutted the games funding and there was nothing left. 

  Seriously though you want EQ new so keep sending your money to Brad, I wish you best of luck.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5411

7/08/14 7:09:29 PM#49


Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by DMKano OP - SoE is not going to spend 100mil to recreate something that has less than 100-200k players even interested in, the active playerbase after a month would most likely be around 50k players. Expensive MMO projects need a huge playerbase. Can't compare that to a small budge game.
to be honest....f8ck sony. No longer are the days where millions of players are needed to fund a game we like. extreemly small teams (like 10 or less developers) are creating games in mass that people want. Such small budget games do not need millions of players to cover the cost.   Its a great day for gaming, a bad day for large gaming companies
+1, Bravo, CHEERS!   Seriously this is the point, big companys are starting to be overshadowed by the little guys. If Divinty Devs can make a game based off a Turn-Based RPG genre that was popular in 90-fucking-5, there is no reason we can see Classic MMO gaming make the rise once more.    Leave out the fact Im in love with the idea of a modern EQ and just think of making a game Liken to that, and you have a perfect niche game with a proven fanbase.    And please, dont cite Pantheon as an excuse to why this wouldnt work out. Panth is headed by Brad Mcquaid, who since Vanguard has had a bullseye on his back and a cloud over his head to the gaming world. Some sad individuals will never let that man rest *cough ReROLLED cough*.   If there was a game being made like classic EQ right now it would sell, it would turn a profit, and the fact that SOE doesnt realize that further shows their lack of knowledge about their fanbase, old and new.
 Your comparing apples to oranges and as already pointed out in EQ's case your math simply doesn't add up.  As to Brad how many breaks does the man need? He names his own salary, decided when he'll get advances took 40% of the developement fund for Pantheon to pay hiself without telling anyone else on the team till they found out he had gutted the games funding and there was nothing left.    Seriously though you want EQ new so keep sending your money to Brad, I wish you best of luck.
a game where all you do is drive a truck in the mud picking up wood sold 100,000 copies in something like 6 weeks.

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/07/spintires-surprises-on-steam-already.html

the smart AAA companies are paying attention
 

Correlation does not imply causation

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2358

7/08/14 7:27:40 PM#50
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by sludgebeard
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by DMKano

OP - SoE is not going to spend 100mil to recreate something that has less than 100-200k players even interested in, the active playerbase after a month would most likely be around 50k players.

Expensive MMO projects need a huge playerbase.

Can't compare that to a small budge game.

to be honest....f8ck sony.

No longer are the days where millions of players are needed to fund a game we like.

extreemly small teams (like 10 or less developers) are creating games in mass that people want. Such small budget games do not need millions of players to cover the cost.

 

Its a great day for gaming, a bad day for large gaming companies

+1, Bravo, CHEERS!

 

Seriously this is the point, big companys are starting to be overshadowed by the little guys. If Divinty Devs can make a game based off a Turn-Based RPG genre that was popular in 90-fucking-5, there is no reason we can see Classic MMO gaming make the rise once more. 

 

Leave out the fact Im in love with the idea of a modern EQ and just think of making a game Liken to that, and you have a perfect niche game with a proven fanbase. 

 

And please, dont cite Pantheon as an excuse to why this wouldnt work out. Panth is headed by Brad Mcquaid, who since Vanguard has had a bullseye on his back and a cloud over his head to the gaming world. Some sad individuals will never let that man rest *cough ReROLLED cough*.

 

If there was a game being made like classic EQ right now it would sell, it would turn a profit, and the fact that SOE doesnt realize that further shows their lack of knowledge about their fanbase, old and new.

How many cases of this are actually happening? Divinity isn't exactly made by the little guys BTW... That team has many titles under their belt, they're more like Obsidian, neither have their own publishing arm, hence going to kickstarter.

Either way what do you mean by outshine? They're not reaching Skyrim levels of acclaim, at least not yet. Divinity:OS sounds great so don't read me wrong (I enjoyed their past games in the series as well),

I just don't see what you both mean by Indies out shining the triple-A studios.There are certainly areas where indies shine, Minecraft or Dayz in MOD form. Those cases are few and far between in regard to what games catch the greater spotlight though.

 

 

you just named 2 indie games and 1 AAA game.

Think about that for a second.

 

My post wasn't meant to make a list of games, do you really need such a list?

What I was trying to illustrate is that you could only think of one AAA game that reached high levels of acclaim.

Now before we begin this rabbit hole....

what does 'outshine' mean to you?

 that's total BS and you know it.. He already stated he wasn't trying to think of all the AAA games he could he just mentioned one off hand, Actually he mentioned 2 if you read as Divinty wasn't made by a indie company persay . The fact you then try and stop him from actually posting a list of AAA games he could think of off hand that did well as it doesn't fit your arguement is in itself laughable and pretty lame.

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2358

7/08/14 7:29:49 PM#51
Originally posted by Myria
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

What I was trying to illustrate is that you could only think of one AAA game that reached high levels of acclaim.

No, the person you quoted only listed one AAA game that reached high levels of acclaim, that in no way, shape, or form implies that they could only think of one.

 

To imply that it does is frankly absurd.

 +1 said better then I did.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2071

7/08/14 7:30:48 PM#52

I completely agree that the classic mmo can make a comeback. It will never happen though if the developer is shooting for Wow-like or even Swtor-like player numbers. The right company shooting for the proper "niche" that is old school mmorpg may and will hit the mark someday. The game must be developed around a specific game play style and community instead of opening the flood gates through F2P and ease of access development focus.

 

 

You stay sassy!

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2358

7/08/14 7:41:01 PM#53
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 


Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by DMKano OP - SoE is not going to spend 100mil to recreate something that has less than 100-200k players even interested in, the active playerbase after a month would most likely be around 50k players. Expensive MMO projects need a huge playerbase. Can't compare that to a small budge game.
to be honest....f8ck sony. No longer are the days where millions of players are needed to fund a game we like. extreemly small teams (like 10 or less developers) are creating games in mass that people want. Such small budget games do not need millions of players to cover the cost.   Its a great day for gaming, a bad day for large gaming companies
+1, Bravo, CHEERS!   Seriously this is the point, big companys are starting to be overshadowed by the little guys. If Divinty Devs can make a game based off a Turn-Based RPG genre that was popular in 90-fucking-5, there is no reason we can see Classic MMO gaming make the rise once more.    Leave out the fact Im in love with the idea of a modern EQ and just think of making a game Liken to that, and you have a perfect niche game with a proven fanbase.    And please, dont cite Pantheon as an excuse to why this wouldnt work out. Panth is headed by Brad Mcquaid, who since Vanguard has had a bullseye on his back and a cloud over his head to the gaming world. Some sad individuals will never let that man rest *cough ReROLLED cough*.   If there was a game being made like classic EQ right now it would sell, it would turn a profit, and the fact that SOE doesnt realize that further shows their lack of knowledge about their fanbase, old and new.
 Your comparing apples to oranges and as already pointed out in EQ's case your math simply doesn't add up.  As to Brad how many breaks does the man need? He names his own salary, decided when he'll get advances took 40% of the developement fund for Pantheon to pay hiself without telling anyone else on the team till they found out he had gutted the games funding and there was nothing left.    Seriously though you want EQ new so keep sending your money to Brad, I wish you best of luck.
a game where all you do is drive a truck in the mud picking up wood sold 100,000 copies in something like 6 weeks.

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/07/spintires-surprises-on-steam-already.html

the smart AAA companies are paying attention
 

 and this game where you drive a truck through mud to pick up wood is a subscription game like EQ1? If not then how are you not comparing apples to oranges.

  if as you are saying the smart AAA companies are paying attention then the indies will be in trouble as the AAA companies should be able to produce the same quality game far quicker and cheaper then the indies.  However since big companies also generally look for HUGE profit margins I'm guessing the indies that are happy with a million in profit are safe fro the triple A companies that want at least 50 million in profit, (just MO)

  Alune

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 2

7/08/14 8:35:25 PM#54
Originally posted by Tamanous

I completely agree that the classic mmo can make a comeback. It will never happen though if the developer is shooting for Wow-like or even Swtor-like player numbers. The right company shooting for the proper "niche" that is old school mmorpg may and will hit the mark someday. The game must be developed around a specific game play style and community instead of opening the flood gates through F2P and ease of access development focus.

 

 

I honestly do not mind the wow-like MMOs, but what I would like to see more so than the Classic RPGs is more Sandbox MMORPGs, Where did they run off to? :P

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5411

7/08/14 10:41:42 PM#55
Originally posted by winter
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 


Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by DMKano OP - SoE is not going to spend 100mil to recreate something that has less than 100-200k players even interested in, the active playerbase after a month would most likely be around 50k players. Expensive MMO projects need a huge playerbase. Can't compare that to a small budge game.
to be honest....f8ck sony. No longer are the days where millions of players are needed to fund a game we like. extreemly small teams (like 10 or less developers) are creating games in mass that people want. Such small budget games do not need millions of players to cover the cost.   Its a great day for gaming, a bad day for large gaming companies
+1, Bravo, CHEERS!   Seriously this is the point, big companys are starting to be overshadowed by the little guys. If Divinty Devs can make a game based off a Turn-Based RPG genre that was popular in 90-fucking-5, there is no reason we can see Classic MMO gaming make the rise once more.    Leave out the fact Im in love with the idea of a modern EQ and just think of making a game Liken to that, and you have a perfect niche game with a proven fanbase.    And please, dont cite Pantheon as an excuse to why this wouldnt work out. Panth is headed by Brad Mcquaid, who since Vanguard has had a bullseye on his back and a cloud over his head to the gaming world. Some sad individuals will never let that man rest *cough ReROLLED cough*.   If there was a game being made like classic EQ right now it would sell, it would turn a profit, and the fact that SOE doesnt realize that further shows their lack of knowledge about their fanbase, old and new.
 Your comparing apples to oranges and as already pointed out in EQ's case your math simply doesn't add up.  As to Brad how many breaks does the man need? He names his own salary, decided when he'll get advances took 40% of the developement fund for Pantheon to pay hiself without telling anyone else on the team till they found out he had gutted the games funding and there was nothing left.    Seriously though you want EQ new so keep sending your money to Brad, I wish you best of luck.
a game where all you do is drive a truck in the mud picking up wood sold 100,000 copies in something like 6 weeks.

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/07/spintires-surprises-on-steam-already.html

the smart AAA companies are paying attention
 

 and this game where you drive a truck through mud to pick up wood is a subscription game like EQ1? If not then how are you not comparing apples to oranges.

  if as you are saying the smart AAA companies are paying attention then the indies will be in trouble as the AAA companies should be able to produce the same quality game far quicker and cheaper then the indies.  However since big companies also generally look for HUGE profit margins I'm guessing the indies that are happy with a million in profit are safe fro the triple A companies that want at least 50 million in profit, (just MO)

Extrapolation

and you are just selecting what you want out of the story. You are not adding that its made by something like 3 people, that it had no advertising and that its only 6 weeks.

discard stories like this if you want and continue to play the games you love.

I know I will :)

Correlation does not imply causation

  Keatlorien

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/14
Posts: 38

7/09/14 5:10:32 AM#56

A well done game which features challenging open world gameplay would be profitable. The business 101 bean counters who believe there isn't a large enough audience for such a game have forgotten that this genre is a form of art. Genius has the power to create and expand markets.  

 

Hopefully the "money people" will learn how to let the artists work.

  Swanea

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 2396

7/09/14 5:18:33 AM#57
I should have grabbed it when it was 20% off but waited.  I will get it the next time it goes on sale for sure though.  The Co-op looks cool.
  Betaguy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2663

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

7/09/14 5:20:32 AM#58
Originally posted by DMKano

Vanguard was EQ1 with better graphics - it was a great game (I played it almost 2 years) - but it didn't have many players interested in it.

The point is ANY EQ1 type mmorpg with *better* graphics than EQ1 is going to cost over 40million today - and it's going to take a small dev team 5+ years to get it completed.

Do I believe that there is a market for EQ1 classic game - YES - 100%

Do I believe that it can be made for a profit - nope - and that's the problem.

Again comparing Divinity with an actual MMORPG like EQ1 - night and day, one can be made by a small dev team on a tight budget, the other cannot (especially with decent graphics)

 

 It didn't have many players because all the cool features were so disjointed from the game it didn't feel right to play.

One word CLUNKY!

  Caldrin

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4528

7/09/14 5:26:13 AM#59

Divinity: Origional Sin is awesome..  one of the best rpgs I have played in a very very long time.. remids me a lot of baldur's gate series..

But its a lot more than baldur's gate with jsut new graphics there are a ton of new gameplay features in this as well so it not only brings back the old school feeling but also improves upon it with modern features but in donig so does not lose anything.

 

So its not just an old school clone.. so saying maknig EQ with new graphics = win is just wrong.

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Arskaaa

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 780

Your chararacter gains experience and levels up, defining a role playing game.

7/09/14 5:34:07 AM#60

played game now 80+ hour and still  cant stop playing game. hook me harder then skyrim. 

hope they make some money with sales:)

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