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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 'We are the problem' - Moviebob

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130 posts found
  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

7/04/14 11:54:52 PM#21
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Ludwik
Nobody is forced to play games.

 

Tell that to the QA team at any game company.

 

 

 

People are forced to do their jobs ? or they agree to do it. Show up every day willingly and are paid for their time.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 8100

7/05/14 12:05:58 AM#22
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Ludwik
Nobody is forced to play games.

 

Tell that to the QA team at any game company.

 

 

 

People are forced to do their jobs ? or they agree to do it. Show up every day willingly and are paid for their time.

People are forced to work - otherwise they couldn't afford to live.

You call it a choice - it's not a choice, the vast majority of people dislike their work and only do it because they have to earn money somehow to support themselves and their family.

The idea that people show up willingly and are paid for their time - it's true on surface, in reality there is no alternative.

When you do something out of necessity, because there are no alternatives, is your choice not forced in some way?

Yes there is some small % of people who enjoy their job, or who don't have to work at all (the 1%ers) - but the vast majority of the population are doing jobs they hate in many cases.

 

Now going back to QA teams at game companies - I'm yet to meet any of them that are loving it - yes the noobs maybe, but talk to any of the QA guys who've done if for several years, I can't recall a single one that liked their job.

 

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

 
OP  7/05/14 12:08:56 AM#23
Originally posted by Tyvolus4
 

that's like saying if people don't stop eating at McDonalds we cant buy a great Hamburger elsewhere...lol, you people make no sense !!

I suspect this thread is maybe a bit too 'meta' for you and therefore can't understand it.

 

Lets see if I can use your example to better assist in your understanding.

Statement: 'Should you be angry at McDonalds for making you fat because you always eat there?'

The above statement makes zero logical sense right? No one made you eat McDonalds.

Same with MMOs, no one is forcing anyone to play 'modern MMOs / quest hubs / WoW Clone etc' so why get mad at an MMO?

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20039

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/05/14 12:45:46 AM#24
And here I am wondering, who the heck is Michael Bay? I'll Google him tomorrow.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Ludwik

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/14
Posts: 385

7/05/14 1:00:47 AM#25
jpnz, you're absolutely right.

If we were to stop playing WoW style and move to Eve style, there would be a massive influx of Eve clones. But the quality of WoW and Eve would not improve.

What would happen is this:

1) WoW style MMOs would stop receiving funding and eventually disappear. Very similar to the way classic old school MMOs are being phased away.

2) NC Soft or EA would buyout CCP and start cutting out game essentials and replace them with more monetization. They would do this while simulanteosly either buying out or pushing out their competition.
3) Blizzard would release their clone about a year after the genre switch began so they could pickup the disgruntled players moving away from EA CCP.

All told the genre hasn't advanced at all, if anything it's gotten worse while a bunch of greedy company execs got richer.

Your solution is not to buy. Not buying doesn't push the genre forward either. These rich company execs aren't going to build a better product, they'll just find a different product to pillage.

Nothing we do matters. You're given the illusion that voting with your wallet is going to make things better but it won't.

The only way the genre will improve is if one of these rich suits wants to build a great game without care for profit...ie never. I hate to say it but be happy with what you have because it's never going to get better, only worse.
  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6441

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

7/05/14 1:01:45 AM#26
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer

For some reason I can't play that link.  

I would say this, I hate CGI, hate it.  If a movie has excessive CGI I will never watch it.  If a movie has bad poorly utilised CGI (aka Micheal Bay) I will not watch it.  

Movies these days are trying to sell to an international market, and the one language everyone understands is action and explosions everywhere.  That is largely why we have seen a decline in the quality of summer blockbusters.  However, these homogeneous CGI-laden shit-fests leave more of a niche market for quality films with characterisation, a compelling story, all of those old school qualities that were once fundamental to a good film.  

The same can be true for mmo's. 

 

For me there are plenty of good movies and then there's just the entertaining movies aka Michael Bay movies and the like.

Also when I talk about bad CGI I see sci-fi...oh excuse me SYFY homebuild movies. CGI in most summer blockbusters actually to me have great CGI.

It has nothing to do with old school taste because those movies are still out there, unfortunaly many focus on that what they don't like and for some reason ignore what is there to enjy for their own taste.

Just don't go to action oriented moviesif you want a compeling deep characteristic type of movie problemsolved, no need for hate...

Same with games.

  TankYou88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/14
Posts: 336

7/05/14 1:02:55 AM#27
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Ludwik
Nobody is forced to play games.

 

Tell that to the QA team at any game company.

 

 

 

People are forced to do their jobs ? or they agree to do it. Show up every day willingly and are paid for their time.

People are forced to work - otherwise they couldn't afford to live.

You call it a choice - it's not a choice, the vast majority of people dislike their work and only do it because they have to earn money somehow to support themselves and their family.

The idea that people show up willingly and are paid for their time - it's true on surface, in reality there is no alternative.

When you do something out of necessity, because there are no alternatives, is your choice not forced in some way?

Yes there is some small % of people who enjoy their job, or who don't have to work at all (the 1%ers) - but the vast majority of the population are doing jobs they hate in many cases.

 

Now going back to QA teams at game companies - I'm yet to meet any of them that are loving it - yes the noobs maybe, but talk to any of the QA guys who've done if for several years, I can't recall a single one that liked their job.

 

Actually they choose that over the other option which is to fend for themselves and live in the wild, hunt their own food, make their house, etc. Lots of people do this, they dont earn any money and still survive, at the same time leaving no carbon footprint. So its kinda a choice because you can do that instead. 

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

 
OP  7/05/14 1:06:11 AM#28
Originally posted by Ludwik
jpnz, you're absolutely right.
/snip
Nothing we do matters. You're given the illusion that voting with your wallet is going to make things better but it won't.

The only way the genre will improve is if one of these rich suits wants to build a great game without care for profit...ie never. I hate to say it but be happy with what you have because it's never going to get better, only worse.

This entire logic makes zero sense and has no evidence to back it up.

Is this even a rational thought? 

/Facepalm

 

Lets see if history tells us that 'voting with wallets = improvements'.

Hmm.. Gee... How about... Internet Search? Remember Yahoo / Altavista? Yeah, me neither cause something called Google came around.

Okay.. got one.. Smart phones! Remember the days before we had Iphones? Blackberry was King man! KING!

Yep, we don't see any improvements for over 10 years. /sarcasm

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/05/14 1:08:33 AM#29
Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by jpnz

 

 

You know what? Just substitute Michael Bay with Blizzard / NCSoft / EA etc and 'latest blockbuster' with 'Latest AAA MMO' and BAM! You have 90% of the thread here ranting about how WoW / themepark killed MMOs.

I personally don't think there is a 'problem' as I believe in such things as 'free market / capitalism' but it was uncanny on how close the comparison between the message of this video and most 'back in my day threads on this site' were.

I am really getting tired of the attacks on older MMO players on this site. Yes, we know "we" are the problem here, because obviously the masses are enjoying this ridiculous free to play hopscotch between soul-less MMOs.  We want our real MMO communities back that existed to be more than text in some general troll chat, all it will take is ONE game to give it to us and you can be rid of us...trust me on that. 

You like where the genre is right now, good for you. We don't. If you expect us to just shut up and go away don't hold your breath....we were here first by the way.

So long as you are paying one red cent on any of these modern games for any reason at all, you are part of the problem.  If you're not, if you're just coming to the forums to complain, fine.  You're not at fault, but if you are paying for these games, if you are playing for free, if you are buying anything out of cash shops, no matter how much you protest that you hate these games, you are part of the problem.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/05/14 1:10:41 AM#30
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Ludwik
Nobody is forced to play games.

 

Tell that to the QA team at any game company.

 

As far as "we are the problem" - who else could it be? The birds? 

Humans came up with the entire concept of what constitutes a problem to begin with - so, we're always the problem, as it lies within our cognition.

 

 

They aren't being forced, they are being paid.  They can all quit their jobs any time they want and go somewhere else.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/05/14 1:16:35 AM#31
Originally posted by Ludwik

Your solution is not to buy. Not buying doesn't push the genre forward either. These rich company execs aren't going to build a better product, they'll just find a different product to pillage.

Nothing we do matters. You're given the illusion that voting with your wallet is going to make things better but it won't.

The only way the genre will improve is if one of these rich suits wants to build a great game without care for profit...ie never. I hate to say it but be happy with what you have because it's never going to get better, only worse.

It works, but only if virtually all people actually do it.  If people stopped playing every single MMO on the market and told EA or Blizzard or whoever else that they will not pay a red cent until their games improved, they would have to improve their games.  Expecting companies to make games without a profit motive is absurd, it's never happened in the past and it will never happen in the future.  Profit is always going to be foremost in their minds and if that's what you're waiting for, give up now, you'll never get it.

The only problem is that the people who complain about modern games are a tiny minority of players, most people who play MMOs like what modern MMOs give them.  The reason boycotts don't work is because virtually nobody agrees with you.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

7/05/14 2:05:13 AM#32
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer

For some reason I can't play that link.  

I would say this, I hate CGI, hate it.  If a movie has excessive CGI I will never watch it.  If a movie has bad poorly utilised CGI (aka Micheal Bay) I will not watch it.  

Movies these days are trying to sell to an international market, and the one language everyone understands is action and explosions everywhere.  That is largely why we have seen a decline in the quality of summer blockbusters.  However, these homogeneous CGI-laden shit-fests leave more of a niche market for quality films with characterisation, a compelling story, all of those old school qualities that were once fundamental to a good film.  

The same can be true for mmo's. 

 

For me there are plenty of good movies and then there's just the entertaining movies aka Michael Bay movies and the like.

Also when I talk about bad CGI I see sci-fi...oh excuse me SYFY homebuild movies. CGI in most summer blockbusters actually to me have great CGI.

It has nothing to do with old school taste because those movies are still out there, unfortunaly many focus on that what they don't like and for some reason ignore what is there to enjy for their own taste.

Just don't go to action oriented moviesif you want a compeling deep characteristic type of movie problemsolved, no need for hate...

Same with games.

No, you misunderstand me; I only dislike bad films with excessive CGI chucked at them to distract the audience from the absence of any plot, arc or compelling characters. 

I love a good action movie: Die Hard, Terminator 1 or 2, Aliens.  Most recent summer blockbusters are not good action movies.  

  MurlockDance

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1225

7/05/14 3:03:57 AM#33
Originally posted by jpnz

In the latest Bob's feature on the escapistmagazine.com (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/9491-Leave-Michael-Bay-Alone), MovieBob has a quote that rings true. 

'The audience is the problem but you aren't suppose to say that'.

The 6:30mins video is a look at the movie critics who come out and write 'articles' (lets be honest and say what it actually is; an attack piece to get clicks) on how evil Michael Bay is and how his latest blockbuster is a crime against humanity.

Movie Bob makes a statement to his fellow critics; we both know the attack articles on Michael Bay isn't about Michael Bay but its audience, the 'Joe Public'. But you aren't allowed to say that. A critic should never place the blame on why a movie succeeds and fails to where it belongs; the movie goers. And I know you know this because I am a movie critic as well so lets drop the lie.

 

You know what? Just substitute Michael Bay with Blizzard / NCSoft / EA etc and 'latest blockbuster' with 'Latest AAA MMO' and BAM! You have 90% of the thread here ranting about how WoW / themepark killed MMOs.

I personally don't think there is a 'problem' as I believe in such things as 'free market / capitalism' but it was uncanny on how close the comparison between the message of this video and most 'back in my day threads on this site' were.

Right! Who's to say who pays what for their entertainment. If people want to go see a Michael Bay movie, that is their business. There seems to be a really bad current happening nowadays that is starting to worry me with nannystateism and rich people or other elistist groups thinking they know better and must control the" idiot masses".

If someone wants to go see Transformers and leave their brain at home for a bit so that they can unwind from a hard day at work, who is anyone to say they shouldn't? Light entertainment is great if you want to escape for just a little bit. Thank goodness we all lead lifestyles where we have time to engage in entertainment in the first place.

Same with MMOs. I like some MMOs and some people on here have told me, and others who like the same games as me, that we are idiots for enjoying them. They call people like me "WoW kiddies" and tell people like me that because we have only known WoW we don't know how great all of the oldschool MMOs were and that we don't understand anything about the genre.

Except that I started out in text-based MUDs prior to there being graphical interfaces for the internet and when you had to use UNIX. I played almost all of the "great" oldschool MMOs and I am sure that I am not the only player who enjoys WoW and the more recent games who started out in the first generation of MMOs.

To me this boils down to a certain group of people who consider themselves elite and therefore have lost touch with reality. To uphold their beliefs they have to try to control those who obviously prove them wrong. Everything has to be black or white.

 

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  MurlockDance

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1225

7/05/14 3:15:54 AM#34
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Ludwik

Your solution is not to buy. Not buying doesn't push the genre forward either. These rich company execs aren't going to build a better product, they'll just find a different product to pillage.

Nothing we do matters. You're given the illusion that voting with your wallet is going to make things better but it won't.

The only way the genre will improve is if one of these rich suits wants to build a great game without care for profit...ie never. I hate to say it but be happy with what you have because it's never going to get better, only worse.

It works, but only if virtually all people actually do it.  If people stopped playing every single MMO on the market and told EA or Blizzard or whoever else that they will not pay a red cent until their games improved, they would have to improve their games.  Expecting companies to make games without a profit motive is absurd, it's never happened in the past and it will never happen in the future.  Profit is always going to be foremost in their minds and if that's what you're waiting for, give up now, you'll never get it.

The only problem is that the people who complain about modern games are a tiny minority of players, most people who play MMOs like what modern MMOs give them.  The reason boycotts don't work is because virtually nobody agrees with you.

To Ludwik, the biggest leaps in any genre will come from independant companies. It is just that MMORPGs tend to require the most money and development time because these games are complex and large. That is why innovation in part is slow in this genre in comparison to other computer game genres.

The other problem going against indies is that their games might have extremely creative elements in them but the polish and fleshing-out features will always be less than what large companies can release. A lot of gamers are extremely impatient when it comes to that kind of thing anymore. The older MMOs benefitted from the fact that players were pretty into their games at that time and were willing to deal with bugs and unintended features that people nowadays find shocking.

The games you dislike might hang on because there will invariably be other players who enjoy them, but you can at the very least support those games you do like. I think your time would be better spent enjoying something than wishing that the stuff you didn't like would all die and disappear.

 

To Cephus404, absolutely agree. Also, Blizzard and many other game companies do listen to their playerbase. Blizzard has been on the record for making changes they thought would please the majority of their players and have made huge changes to their game to try to make it more flexible. I think that overall they have done a pretty good job because it is still the largest game out in the market for ten years now, so they must be doing something right. That does not mean that I agree with all of their changes. I would say that I don't actually. I find current WoW less fun now than it was in late TBC, early WotLK, but there are many players who obviously disagree with me. That is perfectly fine by me.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  StonesDK

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

7/05/14 10:40:35 AM#35
So to sum it up in a few words. Demand determines supply. How is this news?
  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

7/05/14 10:44:28 AM#36
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by jpnz

 

 

You know what? Just substitute Michael Bay with Blizzard / NCSoft / EA etc and 'latest blockbuster' with 'Latest AAA MMO' and BAM! You have 90% of the thread here ranting about how WoW / themepark killed MMOs.

I personally don't think there is a 'problem' as I believe in such things as 'free market / capitalism' but it was uncanny on how close the comparison between the message of this video and most 'back in my day threads on this site' were.

I am really getting tired of the attacks on older MMO players on this site. Yes, we know "we" are the problem here, because obviously the masses are enjoying this ridiculous free to play hopscotch between soul-less MMOs.  We want our real MMO communities back that existed to be more than text in some general troll chat, all it will take is ONE game to give it to us and you can be rid of us...trust me on that. 

You like where the genre is right now, good for you. We don't. If you expect us to just shut up and go away don't hold your breath....we were here first by the way.

Who's we ? I was here way before you :P

Yeah who is we?

Nothing pisses me more when someone gets on the soap box and decides to speak on my behalf.

 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Viper482

Elite Member

Joined: 11/04/10
Posts: 896

7/05/14 10:46:43 AM#37
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by jpnz

 

 

You know what? Just substitute Michael Bay with Blizzard / NCSoft / EA etc and 'latest blockbuster' with 'Latest AAA MMO' and BAM! You have 90% of the thread here ranting about how WoW / themepark killed MMOs.

I personally don't think there is a 'problem' as I believe in such things as 'free market / capitalism' but it was uncanny on how close the comparison between the message of this video and most 'back in my day threads on this site' were.

I am really getting tired of the attacks on older MMO players on this site. Yes, we know "we" are the problem here, because obviously the masses are enjoying this ridiculous free to play hopscotch between soul-less MMOs.  We want our real MMO communities back that existed to be more than text in some general troll chat, all it will take is ONE game to give it to us and you can be rid of us...trust me on that. 

You like where the genre is right now, good for you. We don't. If you expect us to just shut up and go away don't hold your breath....we were here first by the way.

Who's we ? I was here way before you :P

And the date you started posting here has what to do with anything? Are we really epeening member dates? Really dude?

And for everyone else insisting on being a jerk about this "we" are people who agree with what I am saying. It is arrogant to assume I was grouping you in with me just because you are reading it. 

  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

7/05/14 10:51:40 AM#38
Originally posted by StonesDK
So to sum it up in a few words. Demand determines supply. How is this news?

The news is, now it's our fault that supply doesn't meet demand.  

I say we all start a class-action lawsuit...  to the pitch forks!

  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 5629

7/05/14 11:02:00 AM#39

All these jaded people who blame others because they don't like current mmos...I never see anything specific that you complainers want anyway. All I see are specific little nitpicks that you hate, and the stuff you want is so fucking vague its impossible to actualize.

"I want to explore and be forced to group and feel like part of a virtual world"

For people who love to complain about every tiny aspect of an mmo, your blanket solutions of "make it better" are real genre savers let me tell ya lol

  Tibernicuspa

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 1232

7/05/14 11:20:53 AM#40

The difference is, there are still lots of companies making lots of good movies.

 

There are no big publishers making MMOs that aren't boring WoW clones.

 

The weird thing, the anomoly, is that WoW clones don't do well, they never had. At best they squeak along with 2002 subscriber era numbers of players, except those games cost 1/15th the price. At worst, they crash and burn on day 1 and never recover. GW2 is the closest a themepark has come to being a big success since WoW, and even that is guesswork because they ddon't release numbers.

It's just pure madness. Every publisher comes in and thinks I"LL BE THE ONE TO MAKE THE WOW CLONE THAT LURES EVERYONE TO ME!" and then they fail to do so, lose almost all their players within the first month, and limp along in obscurity. Meanwhile, games like Eve continue to grow in subs...

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