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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What will be the next evolution of mmo's?

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  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14232

6/29/14 11:16:53 AM#41
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by SEANMCAD I think the next big trend can be said in one word voxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack.  As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?

 

I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?

from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.

EQ Next

Minecraft

Space Engineers

Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game.  Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A.  Which do you choose?

Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A.  Do you cancel the game because method B is better?  Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.

Voxels are method A.  The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later).  In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game?  You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.

If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder.  Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it.  If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so.  It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.

And it's not just cylinders.  Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.

If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels?  The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.

Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this.  Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics.  But voxels?  No.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5387

6/29/14 11:21:23 AM#42
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by SEANMCAD I think the next big trend can be said in one word voxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack.  As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?

 

I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?

from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.

EQ Next

Minecraft

Space Engineers

Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game.  Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A.  Which do you choose?

Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A.  Do you cancel the game because method B is better?  Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.

Voxels are method A.  The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later).  In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game?  You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.

If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder.  Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it.  If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so.  It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.

And it's not just cylinders.  Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.

If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels?  The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.

Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this.  Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics.  But voxels?  No.

let me try again.

from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.

 

Is that statement incorrect?

Correlation does not imply causation

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

6/29/14 11:33:34 AM#43
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by STYNKFYST
Originally posted by Magiknight

Along the lines of what OP said......

 

Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.

Still ridiculous...

 

Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.

Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.

Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.

"good" is subjective.

So I just played 15 min of Marvel Heroes solo ... "ridiculous" to you .. fun for me. Is there a reason I should stop just because some random dude on the internet disagree on how I should use an entertainment product? Now THAT is ridiculous.

 

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5387

6/29/14 11:36:08 AM#44

I almost always play my MMOs solo.

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Alumicard

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 226

6/29/14 11:40:05 AM#45

I hope that online games of the future deserve the Ms. The stuff we have seen in the last few years was either not massive meaning small, narrow and sometimes even instanced zones and/or the multiplayer part was highly optional. When I look back at games that were done a decade ago I get the feeling the engines and basic game design devolved. The increases in computing speed seem to be used to make them more like singleplayer games and not expanding the multiplayer part.

Instead of more people and bigger zones the focus is on better graphics. That might be a personal thing, me being one of those people setting everything to low and shadows off even if you could run it on high, but I'd prefer to see more people on a huge map than having each and every light particle reflect 100% correctly off my highly detailed armor.

 

Basicly I hope for games going in the direction of Camelot Unchained with its lag free 10'000 people on the screen at the same time and improved Minecraft ish crafting. Not sure if they use voxels but from what I've seen in their video it would make sense. And we really need a more skill based system. Tab target - non tab target, I'd prefer non tab and fps like but either way I want to cast a spell and see the thing flying in a direction. Asheron's Call players know what I mean. Remember mage fights? bolt-bolt-streak-bolt-arc-streak-streak... You can dodge the spell by moving but also if someone runs in the i.e. fireball by mistake this char gets hit. These cruise missile spells we have now are getting boring.

 

  Voiidiin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 828

Soylent green is made from PEOPLE

6/29/14 11:42:37 AM#46

Originally posted by movros99

The next evolution of MMO's summed up is The Crowdfunded MMO.

 

Titles like Star Citizen and Camelot Unchained are going to change the industry big time.

This !!!

Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by SEANMCAD I think the next big trend can be said in one word voxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack.  As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?

 

I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?

Umm i do not think you understand what Voxels are.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by SEANMCAD I think the next big trend can be said in one word voxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack.  As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?

 

I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?

from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.

EQ Next

Minecraft

Space Engineers

Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game.  Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A.  Which do you choose?

Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A.  Do you cancel the game because method B is better?  Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.

Voxels are method A.  The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later).  In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game?  You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.

If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder.  Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it.  If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so.  It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.

And it's not just cylinders.  Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.

If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels?  The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.

Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this.  Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics.  But voxels?  No.

let me try again.

from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.

 

Is that statement incorrect?


http://www.gog.com/game/outcast 

This for me was the first voxel game i ever played, at the time of its release it was pretty stunning. The math needed to run as far as i understood was not the problem, it was the fact that the video cards back then did nothing to help render voxels.

Voxels now are used differently then how they were used in this game, but the principal is still there, just now nVidia and AMD process voxels.

If you never played Outcast i strongly recommend it, i felt when i played this game it was ahead of its time. 

Lolipops !

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14232

6/29/14 12:12:29 PM#47
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

let me try again.

from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.

 

Is that statement incorrect?

Yes, that statement is incorrect.  The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner.  Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.

In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff.  If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.

The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels.  Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels.  But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong:  if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.

  Agent_Joseph

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 1028

6/29/14 12:24:28 PM#48
here is not evolution with current  new mmo's & incoming mmo's ,it is degeneration in genre

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5387

6/29/14 12:32:11 PM#49
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

let me try again.

from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.

 

Is that statement incorrect?

Yes, that statement is incorrect.  The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner.  Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.

In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff.  If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.

The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels.  Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels.  But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong:  if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.

according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.

So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.

 

after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.

Do I have that right?

Correlation does not imply causation

  toddze

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2204

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

6/29/14 12:37:43 PM#50
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
here is not evolution with current  new mmo's & incoming mmo's ,it is degeneration in genre

That sums up the mmo of today, and it is why I do not play them anymore. Part of me still hopes, hopes there is a developer out there that will have the balls to make a hardcore PvE MMO. Sure it wont have millions of subs, but it will hold a very nice player base for many years. 

I remember the good ole days when you had to work together to accomplish objectives, where in a party you had class roles and people had to work together, instead of just button mashing, where a mistake would cause a wipe. When you accomplished something, it felt like you really accomplished something. Those are the games I long for.

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14232

6/29/14 12:42:07 PM#51
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

let me try again.

from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.

 

Is that statement incorrect?

Yes, that statement is incorrect.  The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner.  Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.

In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff.  If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.

The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels.  Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels.  But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong:  if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.

according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.

So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.

 

after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.

Do I have that right?

I know OpenGL.  I've written and debugged several dozen shaders for the tessellation stages alone--which didn't even exist in the core API until 2010.  I'm not just guessing based on summaries of press releases written by tech reporters who don't entirely understand what is going on.

If what enabled voxels was new GPU capabilities, then the games that use voxels wouldn't run on older video cards.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5387

6/29/14 12:44:16 PM#52
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

let me try again.

from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.

 

Is that statement incorrect?

Yes, that statement is incorrect.  The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner.  Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.

In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff.  If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.

The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels.  Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels.  But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong:  if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.

according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.

So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.

 

after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.

Do I have that right?

I know OpenGL.  I've written and debugged several dozen shaders for the tessellation stages alone--which didn't even exist in the core API until 2010.  I'm not just guessing based on summaries of press releases written by tech reporters who don't entirely understand what is going on.

If what enabled voxels was new GPU capabilities, then the games that use voxels wouldn't run on older video cards.

so if future graphics cards plan to have voxel based rendering in the hardware then over time it would become a win for voxel but at this time it is not because the hardware isnt processing voxel...correct?

 

I dont doubt that what I read is accurate. Namely because its easily understood. ALL things, voxel or otherwise, are easier to process now then they were 10 years ago. Is that enough to be the sudden interest in voxel by many developers? I dont know but it does appear to be happening

Correlation does not imply causation

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14232

6/29/14 4:23:26 PM#53
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

so if future graphics cards plan to have voxel based rendering in the hardware then over time it would become a win for voxel but at this time it is not because the hardware isnt processing voxel...correct?

 

I dont doubt that what I read is accurate. Namely because its easily understood. ALL things, voxel or otherwise, are easier to process now then they were 10 years ago. Is that enough to be the sudden interest in voxel by many developers? I dont know but it does appear to be happening

Most things are easier to process now than 10 years ago, but not necessarily everything.  A few years ago, Tom's Hardware tested modern video cards against a card from 1998 in various 2D things--things that modern cards aren't optmized for.  Sometimes the modern cards won handily.  Sometimes the older card was competitive.  In one test, the older card completely destroyed everything else.

Even among modern cards, the results weren't always what one might intuitively expect.  Sometimes a high end card was vastly faster than a low end card of the same architecture; other times, there wasn't much difference between the low end and the high end.  Sometimes Nvidia completely destroyed AMD or the other way around.

What computer chips do is to implement a handful of instructions directly in silicon, and then emulate everything else.  Something integrated directly in silicon will tend to be vastly faster than something emulated from other operations.

For example, if you want to compute the product of two 64-bit integers and then take the result modulo 2^64, a modern desktop or laptop CPU can do this very, very fast.  If you want it modulo some odd number slightly less than 2^64, it will take several times as long.  Even computing the result modulo 2^63 rather than 2^64 will be slower because there's an extra operation.  You can compute the product modulo 3^40 if you want to, but it's much slower.

If CPU designers decided that doing multiplication modulo 3^40 (as opposed to modulo other numbers) was extremely important, they could implement something to speed this particular operation up greatly in future CPUs.  There are a lot of cases of something kind of like this actually happening.  A 32-bit CPU can do multiplication modulo 2^64, but it's much slower than a 64-bit CPU.  In 2010, Intel created AES-NI instructions to do AES encryption very fast, and suddenly their CPUs were about 10 times as fast at AES than before.  This made such an enormous difference that a lowly tablet chip with AES-NI will probably be faster at AES than a heavily overclocked Core i7-960 or Phenom II X6 1090T--both still capable desktop gaming processors, even today.

Part of designing a chip is choosing which operations you're going to implement directly in silicon.  CPUs have a ton of operations implemented directly, as they have a lot of die space and only need a few cores.  The x86 CPU with the most cores on a single die ever made has 15 of them--and pricing starts at over $4000 for a CPU.

But high end GPUs need thousands of shaders to be competitive.  Modern AMD integrated graphics has as many as 512 shaders; both AMD and Nvidia will sell you a GPU with more than 2800.  That means vastly fewer transistors available per "core"--which necessarily means far fewer instructions in each core.  GPUs can only implement a handful of things in every single shader, and other instructions need to be either emulated or only available in a relative handful of shaders.

I haven't implemented voxels myself, so I don't know exactly what sort of instructions they tend to need, nor how SIMD-friendly the code is or how much it needs branching.  GPUs are very, very heavily optimized for 32-bit floating point FMA done in a SIMD faction with no branching and no memory accesses.  Multiplying very large matrices of 32-bit floating point numbers is perhaps the ideal use case that GPUs will fly at.  Change 32-bit to 64-bit, floating point to integer, FMA to transcendentals, do something not SIMD-friendly, or rely on heavy branching and performance drops off in a hurry.

Now, that's not to say that you can't do the other stuff.  You can do a little bit of the other things without completely killing your performance, and games do.  But adding more instructions means bigger shaders, and that means you can have fewer of them--which harms performance in everything that doesn't use the new instructions.  If there were some instruction that would double performance in voxel games at the expense of everything else being 5% slower, would you add it?  (There probably isn't any particular instruction that critical to voxels that could be added.)

But it's not just about shader instructions.  GPUs have a bunch of different types of things, with TMUs, ROPs, and memory controllers the other main units that you have more of in a high end GPU.  The relative number of these things is one of the design choices in making GPUs; for example, Radeon HD 4000 series cards went with about 20 shaders per TMU while GeForce 9000 series cards went with about 2.  This meant that AMD would win handily in games that relied heavily on shader computations as opposed to texture access, while Nvidia would win handily in the opposite scenario.  Games ended up going toward the former, which meant AMD won the generation and Nvidia subsequently had to focus on more shaders rather than more TMUs.

There are also wires to move data from one unit to another as efficiently as possible.  And the way things are wired is very much optimized for pushing things through the standard graphics pipeline as used for rasterization.  Notably, it's exactly the same pipeline for OpenGL as for DirectX; the different APIs just have different names for the same thing at some places.

Most voxel games probably cram things into the traditional graphics pipeline.  If the game is using OpenGL or Direct3D, it absolutely has to do this.  I know that Minecraft does, for example.  The only real alternative that lets you use the GPU at all is OpenCL--at least if you don't consider CUDA a serious alternative, which I don't.  But that means you give up a lot of graphics optimization in silicon.

  bingbongbros

Elite Member

Joined: 9/21/10
Posts: 643

6/29/14 4:40:28 PM#54
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer

There has been a general positive trend towards solo-centric game play in mmo's over the last decade or so.  You are no longer required to spend long minutes putting call-outs on general chat to complete content, or to socialise unnecessarily in order to achieve the game's goals.  You can simply solo your way through content, and if a group is required you can just jump onto a group finder and allow the game to do the socialising on your behalf.  

For me this stream-lining of group content towards solo-play has had a positive affect on the mmo genre.  In order for the genre to remain healthy, I would argue that the natural evolution would be the removal of other players from the game entirely.  Only by doing this can you prevent other players from interrupting the levelling process.  In fact I would argue that the removal of other players from mmo's is entirely necessary to keep the mmo alive as a genre.  

Please share your thoughts.     

 

 

to me this is everything wrong with mmo gamers and mmo games now

Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1076

6/29/14 4:42:15 PM#55
I believe sandbox + procedurally generated content.  MMORPG's engines that are more module to allow for more flexibility and sharing.  Getting those tools out will change how things are done.  
  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

6/29/14 4:51:57 PM#56
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Foomerang I can see level based progression being phased out for more achievement based progression.
It would make a lot more sense to build your game like that.  There would be so many advantages and any real negative is already in the current system.

Mmos are so achievement oriented anyways especially at endgame. Its getting to the point that levels are just a barrier to what people really want to accomplish.

 

I think you struck gold here Foomerang...

 

Just what do people really want to accomplish?  I suspect it's not what they currently do in games as that is more or less your only choice.  Kill boss.  Get ranked.  Whatever.  These are all things the developer trains us to want to accomplish.  If given a world with zero direction whatsoever, chaotic as it may seem, would they "choose" to do any of those things normally spoon fed to them in other games?  

  jonesing22

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/01/10
Posts: 748

6/29/14 4:52:05 PM#57
OH Lol - OP, You got me. 10/10. #trolldsohard
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12868

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/29/14 4:52:19 PM#58
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
I believe sandbox + procedurally generated content.  MMORPG's engines that are more module to allow for more flexibility and sharing.  Getting those tools out will change how things are done.  

I was kind of surprised that we hit 2014 without those being a lot more common than they are. One of the biggest obstacles is the fear of peen. I'm serious. There isn't a single brainstorming meeting or discussion that I have been in on the topic where Time to Peen (TTP) - not if, but when -  isn't brought up as a concern. 

 

 

Cool Crowfall info and speculation - http://www.thewulfden.com/search/label/Crowfall

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12868

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/29/14 5:00:24 PM#59
Originally posted by Foobarx
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Foomerang I can see level based progression being phased out for more achievement based progression.
It would make a lot more sense to build your game like that.  There would be so many advantages and any real negative is already in the current system.

Mmos are so achievement oriented anyways especially at endgame. Its getting to the point that levels are just a barrier to what people really want to accomplish.

 

I think you struck gold here Foomerang...

Just what do people really want to accomplish? 

One example would be PVP, which is why some games have detached the PVP progression system from the PvE system. Some examples of different ways it has been done can be seen in Guild Wars (yes... yes... it's not an MMO), LOTRO, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online.

Some really like the raiding aspect of MMOs, and the sooner they get up to the level of the raid content the better. Leveling becomes even more of an unwanted barrier when it comes to creating alts or rerolls to try a different role in the raid content. RIFT took a very interesting approach to that, and newer MMOs also try to make their classes flexible enough to let people switch between two or more roles without having to level up a whole new character to do so. Wildstar is an example of that, where you can swap out gear, AMPS (role bonuses) and other aspects of your character two switch relatively quickly between two different roles. 

Cool Crowfall info and speculation - http://www.thewulfden.com/search/label/Crowfall

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7675

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/29/14 5:04:26 PM#60

I would say this....

Anyone who thinks soloing is better ..

1 misses the point of a MMO

2 has been so busy chasing yellow markers that does not pay attention to what is actually happening.

1 is obvious,if you  want to remove other players and solo,don'tr bother playing a mmo and wasting your money on internet.

2 If you pay attention at all,you would have noticed you WASTE a LOT of time running around looking for that next yellow marker and running back n forth turning them in.That time in total probably surpasses any time setting up a group.

There is one other factor,just because developers are too dumb to create better grouping mechanics,does not mean it is a waste of time system.We have already seen ideas that help like mentoring or ques ues to auto group.There are other ideas that can speed this up as well and i mentioned one many years ago.

soloing or grouping is NOT an evolution in gaming it is just a simplistic LAZY way for developers to just make use of single player gaming without the added effort of making a true MMORPG.All they do is make the single player game add internet and create co-op play to take down Raids,really a slack effort to calling yourself a MMORPG.

BTW the next evolution is probably going to involve a few things we are already seeing,added ways to bring 3d into the game with headsets and other peripherals.Another evolution would be to try and eliminate the need to make a low end game to cater to a bigger audience by utilizing Cloud structure gaming.The third and more obvious evolution will be player created content example sort of what EQ Landmark is doing.One other evolution is still slow in taking shape and that is advanced physics,developers are still making very low end games in the rpg market,that is where CLOUD gaming off of master computers can make a difference.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

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