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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I believe I finally understand what the FFA community wants out of a MMO, but it will never workout using current game design methods.

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35 posts found
  seraphynx

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/08
Posts: 147

6/18/14 4:16:56 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seraphynx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Inf666

A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

EvE first off is a space game has time based skill progression, and is not a dog fight type game and STILL keeps as many people as it does.. that right there is damn impressive.. you make a AAA ground fantasy based MMO with the complexity of EvE(maybe toned down a bit) it will blow up.. just no developer has tried yet...

may be impressive to you ... certainly it does not to other devs since no one is copying them.

And obviously no one is going to spend money trying a niche formula on a AAA game. Heck, even wow has to TONE down the open-pvp, and complexity ... that is better evidence that there is little market for a fantasy version of Eve.

But you don't have to (and can't) convince me. You have to convince those who have money to invest.

if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/18/14 4:53:44 PM#22
Originally posted by seraphynx
 

if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

 

  seraphynx

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/08
Posts: 147

6/18/14 5:01:58 PM#23
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seraphynx
 

if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

 

and why would that be? and if so most likely because over the past decade they have pretty much done nothing much to really shake up the genre and basically used the same basic model with couple tweaks in almost every single game..and now the market is completely saturated with these games.. if EQ Next hits it huge with their hybrid MMO others will follow suit.. we shall see.. also plenty of indie ones on the horizon  to keep people interested as well

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

6/18/14 5:11:44 PM#24
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seraphynx
 

if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

 

Blizzard is rumored to release details on their new MMO during BlizzCon this year, we'll see.  You're assertion that devs are moving away from MMOs all together is unfounded speculation.  Off the top of my head, you have Black Desert, Blade and Soul, Camelot Unchained, Everquest Next, The Repopulation, Wildstar (just released), ESO (just released), Archeage (porting to US market), City of Titans, FF XIV (was re-released)... I mean common man.  These are just the titles off the top of my head released this year or to be released by 2015 and remember, we're already half way through 2014.

I think it's great that developers are putting resources into Multiplayer games such as Elite, The Division and Watchdogs so that players can do single player stuff, play with a team or play online.  

But damn man, goin out on that toothpick sized limb of "[Devs] are moving away from MMOs all together"...that's an awfully ostentatious statement.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/18/14 5:14:14 PM#25
Originally posted by seraphynx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seraphynx
 

if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

 

and why would that be? most likely because over the past decade they have pretty much done nothing much to really shake up the genre and basically used the same basic model with couple tweaks in almost every single game..and now the market is completely saturated with these games.. if EQ Next hits it huge with their hybrid MMO others will follow suit.. we shall see.. also plenty of indie ones on the horizon  to keep people interested as well

Or because they found greener pastures to invest in  .. like MOBA?

Obviously whether EQ Next will hit it big will make a difference .. and we shall see. But i am not going to bet money on it. It is just another f2p MMO (despite all the hype that "it is different") in a crowded market. I would be surprise if they can steal any thunder from say a real success like LoL, or even just WoT.

 

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1703

6/18/14 5:26:44 PM#26

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why a developer would even attempt to make a FFA MMO anymore, especially when they could make something more like a DayZ stand alone and allow folks to create private servers to enforce their own rule sets. They have a better chance at obtaining a purchase from folks who may avoid ffa mmos all together, but don't mind playing a FFA game on a private server where they feel more comfortable.

 

  seraphynx

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/08
Posts: 147

6/18/14 5:31:09 PM#27
Originally posted by Kaneth

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why a developer would even attempt to make a FFA MMO anymore, especially when they could make something more like a DayZ stand alone and allow folks to create private servers to enforce their own rule sets. They have a better chance at obtaining a purchase from folks who may avoid ffa mmos all together, but don't mind playing a FFA game on a private server where they feel more comfortable.

 

think one of the main issues is the stigma of FFA is nothing but grievers and gankers but if designed well it doesn't need to be like that at all

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/18/14 7:14:26 PM#28
Originally posted by seraphynx
Originally posted by Kaneth

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why a developer would even attempt to make a FFA MMO anymore, especially when they could make something more like a DayZ stand alone and allow folks to create private servers to enforce their own rule sets. They have a better chance at obtaining a purchase from folks who may avoid ffa mmos all together, but don't mind playing a FFA game on a private server where they feel more comfortable.

 

think one of the main issues is the stigma of FFA is nothing but grievers and gankers but if designed well it doesn't need to be like that at all

Why would a player who does not want FFA even be interested to take a look when they can easily go to a game without FFA?

FFA will just stop players to even care, whether you do it well or not.

 

  Colt47

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/14
Posts: 227

6/18/14 8:37:22 PM#29
The developers in general are moving away from Themepark style games due to the justly found limitations previous developers have had to deal with trying to run them.   By making a themepark the developers are forcing themselves to have to support centralized infrastructure to run it and isolate all content creation to their studio.   Sandbox style MMOs are less popular and don't get as many players, but they are more sustainable thanks to player created content and events.  Heck, open world PvP is technically a sandbox style feature.
  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 390

6/18/14 9:19:22 PM#30
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Inf666

A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

 

Where did you get that revenue number for TOR in 2013, if you don't mind me asking? I'm curious, couldn't find it in a quick Google search.
  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1187

6/18/14 9:29:54 PM#31
Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
Originally posted by goofy3k

Sorry OP, but are you new to the world of MMO's? FFA has been done before and worked. UO pre trammel. It's not some new dream or idea, it's how MMO's USED TO BE. Real worlds where player actions have an impact. With the moron gamers of today's world (mostly kids but also crybaby adults) the idea unfortunately has become only a dream. 

So basically what I'm saying, the problem isn't in the game design or mechanics. Developers want money. Loads of crybaby  customers who think existance should revolve around them means less money, which in turn means no FFA type MMO's will ever be created by mainstream developers, and most indie developed games are just poorly done.

LOL. UO pre-trammel is exactly what the type of gameplay the OP is talking about. UO pre Tram only worked for gankers and griefers. People who actually tried to play the game couldn't and left in droves. Pre tram was full of asshats and immature idiots who tried to ruin every community event. They were the ones who sat around moongates ganking everyone who came out. They were the ones who would aggro in the dungeons then go running and hide in a corner till everyone was dead so they could loot the corpses. They stood outside mines waiting for the miners to fill up then would gank. Or ran around the forest ganking noobies who left the cities. And lured people into Moongates to their homes where they trapped them, made them grey for trespassing then killed them.

So basically you are right in the end. Developers want money. A smaller amount of asshat customers who think they pay for the right to be a complete jerkoff to other people and ruin everybodies gaming experience have made sure the FFA MMOs never get developed. And most FFA MMOs that have been developed have not done so well. So why should any Dev put millions of dollars into a game that would have a high chance failure?

Yeah, I was confused by that argument as well.  People voted with their feet when Trammel came out. 

 

And I know the original UO designers were pretty shocked by the bozo bad behavior in the early days, because the devs just didn't play the game that way.   And those bad bozos did (and do)  drive off way more paying customers than they bring in.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/19/14 3:58:52 PM#32
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Inf666

A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

 

Where did you get that revenue number for TOR in 2013, if you don't mind me asking? I'm curious, couldn't find it in a quick Google search.

From two parts .. first part ...

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-01-20-league-of-legends-2013-revenue-topped-USD600m-report

This shows TOR made $139M from micro transaction in 2013. TOR also public stated that their number of sub is at 500k (you can find that easily).

500k sub = $15 * 12 *1/2 = $90M

So I conclude TOR made $139 + 90 ~ $229M in 2013 .. conservatively >$200M.

 

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 390

6/19/14 8:16:19 PM#33
That's a very interesting article. I was amazed to see the levels of money made by games such as Lineage and TF2. Though I should've expected it considering the prevalency of the Asian market. Still, there are only a few names up there I'm intimately familiar with.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/20/14 12:29:12 PM#34
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
That's a very interesting article. I was amazed to see the levels of money made by games such as Lineage and TF2. Though I should've expected it considering the prevalency of the Asian market. Still, there are only a few names up there I'm intimately familiar with.

Yeh .. cash shop and p2w work wonders. It is no surprise many devs jump into the game. There is a lot of money to be made, more so than following wow.

(Hence, all the new MOBA games coming to the market).

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

6/20/14 5:22:03 PM#35

The real issues with FFA PvP MMORPG's are.

  1. Too big of a power gap between new and old players.
  2. Too many designed like PvE games.
  3. Lawlessness can only be solved by tools to bring order.  Might makes right is not enough.
  4. Lack of funding and experience by those making them.
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