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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Now Safe For Wallet

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66 posts found
  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/10/14 11:49:31 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Foomerang

I don't understand. So are they admitting that Defiance, up to this point, has been a rip off? Because if it is Now Safe For Wallets, doesn't that imply that it was not safe before?

Yes. And what is the problem of admitting that if they are going to make more money?

 

long term harm on the industry's image...that's my guess.

 

I mean what's the problem with smoking if I'm enjoying it?

 

or better yet...

 

McDonald's...How is it bad for my heart if i'm in love with it?

 

yes, guy below me, I make real life analogies, I have issues. I'll get them checked tomorrow. For now, I'll just enjoy the fact that I'm above you. BA-BAM!

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5804

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

6/11/14 12:00:28 AM#22
Originally posted by Scot

 

Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.

i think this phrase also fits perfectly with companies like EA and Activision who love to split their community by selling maps instead of cosmetics, effectively doubling the price of the standard game (shooters)

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3732

6/11/14 12:12:38 AM#23
Originally posted by Arclan

 


 


And the average user also doesn't stick around long. Statistics can be made to say anything. What we need are comprehensive data and those are things which companies never promulgate.

You would need comprehensive data on subscriptions too, and you can't really get that.  Subscribers is simply how many people are =paying=, not how many people spend any time playing the game or using it as more than a glorified chat client. :c

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2257

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

6/11/14 2:09:29 PM#24
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Scot Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.
Your average user in a F2P game spends considerably less than 5 dollars a month.

 

So either you think 5 dollars a month is very unreasonable (And therefore, a subscription is =3= times as unreasonable), or you have an interesting definition of the word 'never'.


 


And the average user also doesn't stick around long. Statistics can be made to say anything. What we need are comprehensive data and those are things which companies never promulgate.


Yes, OP, of course Cash Shops are by definition deceptive and constantly evolving pricing models, where the P2W'ness starts off small and increases over time. Basically milking the players for as much $ as possible. It's classic Mushroom Treatment.

I have a better acronym: New Suckers Forfeit Wealth.

Anyone who doesn't get that obvious truth is the real fool.

Arclan, you are consistently one of the wisest posters on the board.

The average really doesn't tell us too much if we don't know what is averaged, and don't know which of the three kinds of averages we are talking about (mean, median or mode).

__________________________
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  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2354

6/11/14 3:46:29 PM#25
Any game isn't safe for the wallet on launch day. MMOs that get the F2P treatment- well its still not safe but its a better demo.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6214

6/11/14 3:55:46 PM#26
Originally posted by Scot

Defiance went F2P and has been declared by Trion as 'now safe for wallet'. Any of us who have seen what a scam a F2P game can be will have a chuckle at the irony. By definition cash shops are not safe for your wallet, and those in F2P games tend to be the most abusive of the idea that they could ever be safe. But I am not excusing P2P MMOs with cash shops, as its the cash shop that is doing the mugging of your wallet here.

Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.

Trion has a history with good F2P model.

 

mainly with RIft.

 

Its same as before, but with optional cash shop for people that paid for the game.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5506

6/11/14 4:04:33 PM#27

F2P + Cash Shops = Pay Walls.

either you pay nothing, and accept that a number of 'fun' features are not going to be open to you. Or you pay to unlock or access them.

For anyone not wanting to look like just about every other player in the game, alternative appearances/gear etc. behind a pay wall.

Crafting is often nerfed or lacking signficant parts, full Crafting is usually behind a pay wall.

XP gains are often very low, unless, you guessed it, XP boosters are also, behind a pay wall.

 

F2P usually means, you can freely play the game, but in order to do anything meaningful ..$$$$$$$.

Its often the case when you consider 2 games alongside each other, that in order to enable game play in a F2P game, that is comparable to that obtained in a P2P game, you may have to pay more, sometimes considerably more. The number of F2P games that don't fall into that category are very very few.

 

Now safe for wallet is an extremely bold claim.

  Kilrain

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/03
Posts: 521

6/11/14 4:13:17 PM#28
All depends on how the cash shop is built tbh. I've been playing APB:reloaded for a few YEARS (3ish) now and I think I've spent less than $200 total.

professional web programming and design.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

6/11/14 4:19:23 PM#29


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by Robokapp if you're big, covered in tatoos, have a group of friends and all are very muscular you can walk through just about any neighborhood at night and be safe. Doesn't make that neighborhood safe though...
Excellent analogy. Safe for you doesn't mean safe for all.
What is safe for all ?
Strawman.
It's hard to have a strawman when the original analogy was pointless and irrelevant. Please do explain how the analogy applies to payments being optional and the ability to maintain self-control when spending money. Then analogy itself is a red herring.

I thought the title of this thread was "Now Safe for Wallet," which suggets safe for 'all' wallets; and Robokapp appropriately pointed out that it's not. So in fact, the only red herring here is Torvaldr's reply.

Beatnik59, you da man. Thanks.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  bestever

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/11
Posts: 613

6/11/14 4:20:02 PM#30
Originally posted by Phry

F2P + Cash Shops = Pay Walls.

either you pay nothing, and accept that a number of 'fun' features are not going to be open to you. Or you pay to unlock or access them.

For anyone not wanting to look like just about every other player in the game, alternative appearances/gear etc. behind a pay wall.

Crafting is often nerfed or lacking signficant parts, full Crafting is usually behind a pay wall.

XP gains are often very low, unless, you guessed it, XP boosters are also, behind a pay wall.

 

F2P usually means, you can freely play the game, but in order to do anything meaningful ..$$$$$$$.

Its often the case when you consider 2 games alongside each other, that in order to enable game play in a F2P game, that is comparable to that obtained in a P2P game, you may have to pay more, sometimes considerably more. The number of F2P games that don't fall into that category are very very few.

 

Now safe for wallet is an extremely bold claim.

Well Trion has done nothing you state with Rift so that's a good starting point. Same will go for Defiance. 

Defiance has DLC but they didn't block the content for non paying players just like Rift. Its been that way from the get go.

Really the only thing you would need to buy in defiance would be bag slots as always and maybe a cool looking car if you really wanted it other then that you can play the game for FREE. It wouldn't hurt to buy the season pass to support the game if you like it, you get some bonuses but nothing all that special.

So yes Trion does a great job with F2P and has never even been close to P2W.

  apocoluster

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1305

\m/,

6/11/14 4:21:02 PM#31
  I wish their cash shop had something to buy in it.  It was the same problem I had with giving them money in the first place.  Im not against cash shops..but I gotta have something i want to buy in it first  to buy first. 

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

6/11/14 4:22:51 PM#32
Originally posted by Phry

F2P + Cash Shops = Pay Walls.

either you pay nothing, and accept that a number of 'fun' features are not going to be open to you. Or you pay to unlock or access them.

For anyone not wanting to look like just about every other player in the game, alternative appearances/gear etc. behind a pay wall.

Crafting is often nerfed or lacking signficant parts, full Crafting is usually behind a pay wall.

XP gains are often very low, unless, you guessed it, XP boosters are also, behind a pay wall.

 

F2P usually means, you can freely play the game, but in order to do anything meaningful ..$$$$$$$.

Its often the case when you consider 2 games alongside each other, that in order to enable game play in a F2P game, that is comparable to that obtained in a P2P game, you may have to pay more, sometimes considerably more. The number of F2P games that don't fall into that category are very very few.

 

Now safe for wallet is an extremely bold claim.

Then you need to make a decision, is the game fun for you or not?  If not, go play something else.  If you insist on having everything open to you all the time, then F2P isn't for you.  Most people are entirely fine with some things behind pay walls. I've never once in my life felt the need to pay to open a pay wall.  I just consume the content that's available for nothing.

You sound like someone with no self-control, who has to have everything.  That's a problem with you, not F2P.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  alkarionlog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1078

6/11/14 4:53:56 PM#33
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Scot

Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.

Your average user in a F2P game spends considerably less than 5 dollars a month.

So either you think 5 dollars a month is very unreasonable (And therefore, a subscription is =3= times as unreasonable), or you have an interesting definition of the word 'never'.

nope, taht is a lie and you know it, if the average would only spend less then 5 dolar sa month we would never have that much games going for F2P, the average spend more then 15 monthly, and we always ahve the competitive crowd who spend a lot more then that to stay on top, course you can argue some don't spend anything, but at the same time some spend well over thousands to keep playing. but tossing that aside, the average is not only 5.

 

also if what I remember from defiance CS they never really sold anything there, course I would still need to play now, last time I played it was alpha, it was a cool game, some good things other no so much but in overall a nice one, but I enver saw me paying to play a monthly fee plus DLCs around, that never sold to me, I always played the monthly free with expansions happening without extras fees. but I consider this game more like something to pop in do some shooting, maybe hunt some arkfalls and be done, nothing else

FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6095

6/11/14 5:34:21 PM#34
Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by Robokapp if you're big, covered in tatoos, have a group of friends and all are very muscular you can walk through just about any neighborhood at night and be safe. Doesn't make that neighborhood safe though...
Excellent analogy. Safe for you doesn't mean safe for all.
What is safe for all ?
Strawman.
It's hard to have a strawman when the original analogy was pointless and irrelevant. Please do explain how the analogy applies to payments being optional and the ability to maintain self-control when spending money. Then analogy itself is a red herring.

I thought the title of this thread was "Now Safe for Wallet," which suggets safe for 'all' wallets; and Robokapp appropriately pointed out that it's not. So in fact, the only red herring here is Torvaldr's reply.

Beatnik59, you da man. Thanks.

Actually Arclan, Robo made an irrelevant analogy to support his point. He didn't point out or prove anything because personal safety in a crime ridden neighborhood filled with scary stereotypes about people with tattoos has nothing to do with the ability to pay or not pay in a video game.

Can the game spend your money without your approval? If it can't then you're wallet is safe from theft. Can you play the game without spending money? Are you forced at anytime to part with your money through criminal coercion? How exactly does that criminal safety analogy apply exactly?

Now if you're trying to posit that the ability to spend money in the game through a shop is unsafe thievery then please be warned about sites like Amazon and stores like Walmart, BestBuy, your local grocery store, NewEgg, and anywhere else you have the option of spending your money because your wallet is obviously not safe anywhere. I believe there are help groups for people with those problems though.

My original criticism of his poor and baseless analogy stand.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/11/14 5:46:52 PM#35

title says "Now safe for wallet".

 

my argument addressed the safety.

 

I have a feeling that in the big scary neighborhood your wallet's safety is in question...

 

  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

6/11/14 5:50:42 PM#36

My wallet is safe... Trion doesn't know where it is and if I stupidly choose to tell them where it is, that's my fault, not theirs.

 

Those of you that have this need to purchase your way through a game are the ones with need of a spending limit... not the rest of us.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/11/14 10:12:20 PM#37
Originally posted by alkarionlog
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Scot

Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.

Your average user in a F2P game spends considerably less than 5 dollars a month.

So either you think 5 dollars a month is very unreasonable (And therefore, a subscription is =3= times as unreasonable), or you have an interesting definition of the word 'never'.

nope, taht is a lie and you know it, if the average would only spend less then 5 dolar sa month we would never have that much games going for F2P, the average spend more then 15 monthly, and we always ahve the competitive crowd who spend a lot more then that to stay on top, course you can argue some don't spend anything, but at the same time some spend well over thousands to keep playing. but tossing that aside, the average is not only 5.

 

also if what I remember from defiance CS they never really sold anything there, course I would still need to play now, last time I played it was alpha, it was a cool game, some good things other no so much but in overall a nice one, but I enver saw me paying to play a monthly fee plus DLCs around, that never sold to me, I always played the monthly free with expansions happening without extras fees. but I consider this game more like something to pop in do some shooting, maybe hunt some arkfalls and be done, nothing else

Actually it's been shown on many different stats, many different times though many different companies and is right.  The average user spends very little.  The mode spend nothing, average is a little, and a tiny fraction spend a lot.

2 million at an average of $5/month is far far far more than 200,000 at $15/month.

Again the stats have been reported here many times.

Use swtor's last stats as an example.  2 million f2p and 500,000 subs.  $300 million in the CS alone.  We'll just use f2p because subs scew it a bit but see edit below.  $150 million / 2 million = $150/year = $12.50 per month Average Revenue Per User.  Not the $5 stated but less than $15.

- Edit - undoubtedly many of the subs bought in the CS as well making it more than 2 million players so they paid even less.  But counting the subs as well makes things murky.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20539

6/11/14 10:54:25 PM#38
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Foomerang

I don't understand. So are they admitting that Defiance, up to this point, has been a rip off? Because if it is Now Safe For Wallets, doesn't that imply that it was not safe before?

Yes. And what is the problem of admitting that if they are going to make more money?

 

long term harm on the industry's image...that's my guess.

 

I mean what's the problem with smoking if I'm enjoying it?

Exactly ... if you have full information, and decide that you would rather die young with painful lung cancel in exchange of some enjoyment, what is the problem?

And it is not like a single company needs to care about the image of the whole industry?

  Panther2103

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 2110

6/11/14 11:03:47 PM#39
Did it even affect the amount of people that are playing the game? It didn't even break the steam top 100 list for being F2P, or is there a lot of people playing the game in the non steam client?
  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2204

6/12/14 4:09:38 AM#40
Originally posted by Panther2103
Did it even affect the amount of people that are playing the game? It didn't even break the steam top 100 list for being F2P, or is there a lot of people playing the game in the non steam client?

That's the plan I guess, increasing the playerbase. Can't say if it's working or not, haven't played on the last week, but before that date there was a notice-able increase in player count (probably they went back for the Season 2 content like I did). Actually the real influx is gonna happen when the show will launch as well, I think.

"It didn't even break the steam" can't say either, wasn't in the kitchen today... :) Ok, seriously, folks should finally detach themselves from those crap client/launcher/achievment BS's. Glyph included, might I add.

 

On a sidenote, the NSFW ad is great, kudos for the marketing team. Just look at this very thread, still going and quoting statistics etc., under an f2p model which has none of those issues peeps are mentioning. I'm not saying those are invalid facts or arguments, just that those are not fit for Defiance's model. And still, the thread is rolling on, just because of the NSFW. Great job, Trion :)

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