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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » 4,528,187,928 possible skill combos!

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36 posts found
  Greymoor

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/30/10
Posts: 812

6/05/14 7:16:34 AM#21
Originally posted by Phry

Reminds me of the 'cable tv' joke, 1000 channels and nothing on worth watching.

Im not sure whether taking off the class restrictions that they had in place will really work tbh, i thought the whole idea of them having the game setup the way they did with classes etc, was to prevent FOTM imbalances. Does this mean that it will have the same disadvantages that DFO had with the horribad afk skill grinding.. i suspect it will. And the return of the 'everyone has the same combat skills' in PvP will no doubt rear its ugly head, what does it matter if there are a bazillion possible combinations, if everyone is just going to go for the most effective ones, which means, there really will only be 1 or 2 viable combinations at best. Hopefully i am wrong, but isn't this exactly what happened before?

In DF1 you had access to every single ability at the same time, there were no restrictions to how many you could have bound and there were no ultimate abilities. This lead to everyone having to be good at archery, melee and spamming spells to win a fight. So you were a hybrid master of everything or something known as a destroyer (no magic allowed, extra damage to staff users).

The game changers here are;

- The maximum number of abilities that are equippable at a time

- Each ability being unique and useful in different situations

- Being able to select one of 12 useful ultimates

 

  Betaguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2653

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

6/05/14 7:40:48 AM#22
and there will be like two decent builds that everyone will use.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2692

6/05/14 7:52:28 AM#23
Originally posted by Betaguy
and there will be like two decent builds that everyone will use.

Right. Because there were already only 2 decent builds to begin with when locked into classes, and now with freedom to mix any skills, weapons, and armor it's totally going to stay that way too....

Ignorance is so amusing.

  User Deleted
6/05/14 8:32:19 AM#24
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Betaguy
and there will be like two decent builds that everyone will use.

Right. Because there were already only 2 decent builds to begin with when locked into classes, and now with freedom to mix any skills, weapons, and armor it's totally going to stay that way too....

Ignorance is so amusing.

In EVE-Online the possible permutations for ship fittings are also astronomical, the valid permutations less so and the number of "decent" builds per ship for PvP or PvE and the meta shifts every now and then with patches or via player build innovations but at any one given time the number of fits per ship is 3-4 total and the number of ships used in PVP for example is small though CCP has taken steps to improve that in recent years but holding thine breath for AV to be even half as smart as 2 neurons from Monoclegate era CCP is a recipe for hypoxia.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

6/05/14 9:00:09 AM#25
Originally posted by Phry

Reminds me of the 'cable tv' joke, 1000 channels and nothing on worth watching.

Im not sure whether taking off the class restrictions that they had in place will really work tbh, i thought the whole idea of them having the game setup the way they did with classes etc, was to prevent FOTM imbalances. Does this mean that it will have the same disadvantages that DFO had with the horribad afk skill grinding.. i suspect it will. And the return of the 'everyone has the same combat skills' in PvP will no doubt rear its ugly head, what does it matter if there are a bazillion possible combinations, if everyone is just going to go for the most effective ones, which means, there really will only be 1 or 2 viable combinations at best. Hopefully i am wrong, but isn't this exactly what happened before?

Huh?? No, it doesn't mean the return of AFK skill grinding. You don't level up skills by using them anymore. 

 

And no, this isn't what happened before. What happened before was you had access to ALL the skills in the game. There were no tradeoffs. In this, you can pick a maximum of 8 skills and 1 ultimate. It's completely different. Everytime I talk with people about what build they're gonna do, they all say something different. People are excited to be able to play a playstyle they want to play.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2401

6/05/14 10:35:10 AM#26

One of my favorite skill system set ups was GW1.  The upcoming change to UW mimics by having you choose your skills from a pool of available skills.  This is going to be great. 

Also sounds like knives will be getting a buff as well.  I doubt they will be useful in pvp, but will definitely try them out.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5548

6/05/14 10:41:11 AM#27
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Phry

Reminds me of the 'cable tv' joke, 1000 channels and nothing on worth watching.

Im not sure whether taking off the class restrictions that they had in place will really work tbh, i thought the whole idea of them having the game setup the way they did with classes etc, was to prevent FOTM imbalances. Does this mean that it will have the same disadvantages that DFO had with the horribad afk skill grinding.. i suspect it will. And the return of the 'everyone has the same combat skills' in PvP will no doubt rear its ugly head, what does it matter if there are a bazillion possible combinations, if everyone is just going to go for the most effective ones, which means, there really will only be 1 or 2 viable combinations at best. Hopefully i am wrong, but isn't this exactly what happened before?

Huh?? No, it doesn't mean the return of AFK skill grinding. You don't level up skills by using them anymore. 

 

And no, this isn't what happened before. What happened before was you had access to ALL the skills in the game. There were no tradeoffs. In this, you can pick a maximum of 8 skills and 1 ultimate. It's completely different. Everytime I talk with people about what build they're gonna do, they all say something different. People are excited to be able to play a playstyle they want to play.

That does sound more reassuring, that and some of the previous comments too, might have to give the game another go and see how it works once its 'live'

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

6/05/14 3:57:53 PM#28
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Phry

Reminds me of the 'cable tv' joke, 1000 channels and nothing on worth watching.

Im not sure whether taking off the class restrictions that they had in place will really work tbh, i thought the whole idea of them having the game setup the way they did with classes etc, was to prevent FOTM imbalances. Does this mean that it will have the same disadvantages that DFO had with the horribad afk skill grinding.. i suspect it will. And the return of the 'everyone has the same combat skills' in PvP will no doubt rear its ugly head, what does it matter if there are a bazillion possible combinations, if everyone is just going to go for the most effective ones, which means, there really will only be 1 or 2 viable combinations at best. Hopefully i am wrong, but isn't this exactly what happened before?

Huh?? No, it doesn't mean the return of AFK skill grinding. You don't level up skills by using them anymore. 

 

And no, this isn't what happened before. What happened before was you had access to ALL the skills in the game. There were no tradeoffs. In this, you can pick a maximum of 8 skills and 1 ultimate. It's completely different. Everytime I talk with people about what build they're gonna do, they all say something different. People are excited to be able to play a playstyle they want to play.

That does sound more reassuring, that and some of the previous comments too, might have to give the game another go and see how it works once its 'live'

Yeah, it looks really cool. Of course it'll come down to how it's implemented and balanced, but everything we've heard so far sounds amazing.

  jahgreen

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 46

6/05/14 4:10:22 PM#29
I for one, think it is going to be a blast. Keep up the work AV.
  Deerhunter71

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 554

6/05/14 4:16:02 PM#30
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

 

And no, this isn't what happened before. What happened before was you had access to ALL the skills in the game. There were no tradeoffs. In this, you can pick a maximum of 8 skills and 1 ultimate. It's completely different. Everytime I talk with people about what build they're gonna do, they all say something different. People are excited to be able to play a playstyle they want to play.

I hear what you are saying and maybe they will get it right.  But trust me once folks find a few builds that just dominate; those other people may be excited to play a playstyle they like but only for so long when they get tired of losing gear to the "best builds" and want to leave the Ford Pinto behind and follow the others to the new car that just blows it away.  Eventually they cave in and turn to the "best" builds out there and soon everyone else and so on.  Maybe AV will implement it in a way that prevents this - time will tell and best of luck to them.

  User Deleted
6/05/14 4:25:32 PM#31


4,528,187,928 possible skill combos!

...but a niche aint one!

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1392

6/05/14 4:30:33 PM#32
Originally posted by Kyleran
Anything beyond 50 is probably highly abusable.

There, fixed it for you :)

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

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  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1309

6/06/14 10:29:28 AM#33
Originally posted by Lustmord

I think there will be a lot more than a handful..

Just look at the Ultimates..

There are currently 12 Ultimates in the game, and each is useful and viable for different things.

Alot of healers for example, might choose Spirit Bond, but others would prefer Stoic Defense.

Will heavy melee builds pick Pulverize, or Heightened Reflexes, or maybe Static Field?

In a siege when you want AOE, are you gonna pick Salvo, or Blizzard, or Pall of Pandemonium?

There's tons of options, and they are each viable.

 

Oh agreed. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, in practice, there will be many combinations that would be viable... in terms of what the game offers.

My post isn't a knock on the game. It's more a comment on the typical mindset of MMO gamers. Across the genre.

It's not a matter of "what the game offers". It's a matter of "how the players perceive what the game offers".

It's more a statement (albeit cynical) on how players, by and large, tend to want to reduce everything down to "the absolute best" - or at least what they currently consider the absolute best.

Basically, it goes like this...

Someone finds a particular build that seems to out-perform all other known builds at that time. Someone creates a wiki guide for it, it becomes "common knowledge and proven fact" that it's THEE BUILD to use, and those who don't are told - ironically - to "learn to play".

Then... one of those rare people who don't just fall in line aboard the sheep train do some experimentation for themselves, and find a new build that out-performs "THEE BUILD". They prove it to be true.

Someone writes a wiki guide and then that becomes "THEE BUILD", and those who don't use it are told to "learn to play"...

Until... one of those rare people who don't just fall in line...

And so on.. and so on.

Regardless of what game it is, or what kind of system it is... it's 100% a player thing. Many people just want to know two things:

1. What's the "best build", and..

2. Where they can find the guide for it

I guarantee you... The 'ultimates' thing will make absolutely no difference. Players will still reduce it down to a few that are considered "THEE BEST", depending on what playstyle they're going for... and then that's what most everyone else will fall in line with.

... until one of those rare people who don't just fall in line comes along...

 

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1309

6/06/14 10:36:28 AM#34
Originally posted by Realbigdeal
Originally posted by TangentPoint

Nice! More options are always good.

Sadly, due to players' obsession with having to find "The Best Builds",  that 4,428,187,928 combos will inevitably be reduced to a handful of "accepted builds" deemed "the standard". Experimentation with alternative setups will be mocked and/or otherwise discouraged.

Why?

Because there are very, very few players in the MMO genre who truly embrace experimentation; who enjoy trying different combinations, to find what works through trial and error. Something like this is a gold-mine to them.

Many - perhaps even most? - players just want to look up a guide online and be shown/told exactly what build to use and exactly how to play it. The idea of having to learn or figure things out for themselves is anathema. They just want to be told/shown "the best way to play", and let others do "all that boring research".

Not if balanced in a way to allow all combinations to be viable and fun. Not everything has to be the best. Destroyers in DFO was not so good, but players made that build because it was viable and fun and you still had enough tools to be good in all areas. If you were the best in DFO, it was even possible to be the best as a destro. 

To allow all those builds to be viable and fun, they will have to balance everything based on the fact that DF is a sandbox. They shouldnt in no way balance DF like a dev usually balance a moba like league of legends and DF UW at first, was balanced with a moba in mind.

All that mobility spells ruined roles that didnt had any.  Those roles were good in large scale or 1on1, but not in between. Even if they are good in both of those, there is just no way for them to dictate the fight against a role that can run away or prevent the mage from running away. Everyone who plays DF see 2 goals, surviving or killing.

Mobas are always 5v5, you have towers, you start at level 1 and 0 gold, you got all type of CC's and they can last as long as 5+ sec. Counters in mobas are real simple. You don't like champs that can escape so easily? Use stun. You hate the fact that they can chase you down so easily? Use your towers if they're not tanky enough to get you in there. So many counters in mobas. Unlike a sandbox, a character that can escape in moba's can't escape from the game. They're must finish the game and if they logout, they lose. In a sandbox, you don't lose for escaping from the whole fight so you won because you survived(Moral victory right there).

DF is not heavy on CC and again, it's a sandbox. Fights are not always fair so with all that in mind, some aspect on skills can never be balanced. If you don't have all mobility spells and someone else does, than that character will have a chance to be good in more areas. 

I usually prefer to be original, but once that customization patch drops, we all know what everyone is gonna get. I said since the start that mobility spells either have to be common or removed or the roles that got most of those will be the FOTM.

Well, again.. it's not about what the game has or offers. It's a people thing.

It's not about what actually is viable. It's about what people perceive as "the best". Though many insist otherwise... in practice, gamers don't tend to like having many options to choose from. They like it as a bullet point on a features list, but not so much in implementation. They want to know what is thee #1 absolute best build... and that's what they stick to.

But, to inject a bit of cynicism here, in the form of a question...

Do you believe AV would ever be able to balance a system that allows 4,428,187,928 combos?

  Deerhunter71

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 554

6/06/14 10:55:21 AM#35
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by Lustmord

I think there will be a lot more than a handful..

Just look at the Ultimates..

There are currently 12 Ultimates in the game, and each is useful and viable for different things.

Alot of healers for example, might choose Spirit Bond, but others would prefer Stoic Defense.

Will heavy melee builds pick Pulverize, or Heightened Reflexes, or maybe Static Field?

In a siege when you want AOE, are you gonna pick Salvo, or Blizzard, or Pall of Pandemonium?

There's tons of options, and they are each viable.

 

Oh agreed. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, in practice, there will be many combinations that would be viable... in terms of what the game offers.

My post isn't a knock on the game. It's more a comment on the typical mindset of MMO gamers. Across the genre.

It's not a matter of "what the game offers". It's a matter of "how the players perceive what the game offers".

It's more a statement (albeit cynical) on how players, by and large, tend to want to reduce everything down to "the absolute best" - or at least what they currently consider the absolute best.

Basically, it goes like this...

Someone finds a particular build that seems to out-perform all other known builds at that time. Someone creates a wiki guide for it, it becomes "common knowledge and proven fact" that it's THEE BUILD to use, and those who don't are told - ironically - to "learn to play".

Then... one of those rare people who don't just fall in line aboard the sheep train do some experimentation for themselves, and find a new build that out-performs "THEE BUILD". They prove it to be true.

Someone writes a wiki guide and then that becomes "THEE BUILD", and those who don't use it are told to "learn to play"...

Until... one of those rare people who don't just fall in line...

And so on.. and so on.

Regardless of what game it is, or what kind of system it is... it's 100% a player thing. Many people just want to know two things:

1. What's the "best build", and..

2. Where they can find the guide for it

I guarantee you... The 'ultimates' thing will make absolutely no difference. Players will still reduce it down to a few that are considered "THEE BEST", depending on what playstyle they're going for... and then that's what most everyone else will fall in line with.

... until one of those rare people who don't just fall in line comes along...

 

Exactly spot on!  

  Alka_Setzer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/09/12
Posts: 151

6/06/14 11:03:29 AM#36
"Meh" is about the extent of my hype for something like this. Borderlands said the same thing and while true, realistically, it didn't matter one bit because there were only a small handful of combinations that were any good. Even more so in bl2 end game stuff.
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