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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are sandboxes ugly?

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59 posts found
  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1515

6/05/14 2:16:48 PM#21
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Nothing in a theme park says drops have to be the best n. The can be comparable or better or worse. Most theme parks these days also have several ways to level.

Gated content is just bad design nut specifically a theme park design.

Quests have never been mandatory in theme park abd even the beloved wow are nit the fastest way to level.

Nothing in a theme parks says that it have to be a themepark.. and nevertheless almost all themepark do have all of those design elements, or most.

And about Quests.. mandatory was maybe a little bit to strong of a word. Let's say the most effictive way to progress, or the only viable way(those viable could be to strong too). And questing was not the most effective and fastest way to progress in WoW? Really? Ok, now i am curious, what was the most effective and fastest way to progress in WoW?

But down to your basic question. What kind of themepark content do you want in sandboxes specifically. Because.. content is not really the problem.. it is much more, as i already described, the package of the content, what we call commonly themepark.

Because the content is stone age old. It is basicly Dungeons and Quests.. but how you do Dungeons and Quests that makes one game a themepark and the other a sandbox.. Dungeons and Quests are the Barebone of RPGs as we know them since early Dungeon & Dragons.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5050

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/05/14 3:16:58 PM#22
Fairr enough. I personally would want it but I can accept that I might be alone in that.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5050

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/05/14 3:17:40 PM#23
Ltd is the fastest way to level in wow

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5050

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/05/14 3:20:04 PM#24
In a sandbox I want all the quests and the ease of lfd of the theme park. I want the option to follow a path some days or be known as the master cake and castle builder other days.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

6/05/14 4:07:27 PM#25

Answer: Because the firms that have money to pay for high end graphics also dont know what they are doing.

 

Kind of like in other parts of reality

Correlation does not imply causation

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1397

6/05/14 4:17:24 PM#26
Originally posted by Distopia
Archeage?

Quite far from a true sandbox. It's a sandpark.

OP, because big money companies are afraid of "stepping out the box", even 10 years after WoW's success that they're still trying to accomplish the same by flooding the markets with themepark crap.

The real "WoW-killer" (hate the term, but i'll use it this time) will be a major company funded PROPER sandbox, hopefully somewhere in the not too distant future.

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  Grakulen

Staff Writer

Joined: 3/07/12
Posts: 455

6/05/14 4:22:35 PM#27
Art is expensive and a lot of the games that people equate with sandbox are pretty low budget in comparison to those good looking theme parks.
  Kangaroomouse

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/14
Posts: 415

6/05/14 4:40:17 PM#28

 

Because there are no good looking game engines that supports real-time deformable terrain. Voxels or marching cubes only get you so far. Look at landmark, it looks terrible and performance is abysmal. That is from a top studio and most sandboxes are developed with much lower budgets.

----

Maybe some day we will find a technical solution to this problem. Right now we don't have one other than throwing GPU cycles at it.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14119

6/05/14 4:45:07 PM#29

I wouldn't say that Uncharted Waters Online looks great, as the graphics are somewhat dated by now.  But it doesn't look bad, either--and it looks vastly better than Minecraft.

Sandbox games are supposed to have more variety in what goes on than theme park games, as in theme park games, you're expected to do just about every single thing and repeat a bunch of them, while in sandbox games, you're not.  But more variety means more graphics to make.  Make more artwork on a fixed budget and you end up with each piece of artwork looking uglier.

  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1515

6/05/14 5:54:03 PM#30
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Ltd is the fastest way to level in wow

You mean the LFD Tool? The insta get me in a dungeon and a group tool? Or differently put a lobby based themepark.

Edit: It was not part of WoW as i played it.. it was not part of Vanilla.. and in that time question was the way to go.. especially that instances started at lvl 15-18, and there was always room between instances, which usually was filled with questing. Though most Quests lead you to instances, too. So it is more or less the same. But that may have changed over the time.

Edit End.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
In a sandbox I want all the quests and the ease of lfd of the theme park. I want the option to follow a path some days or be known as the master cake and castle builder other days.

Ok.. you want a Themepark with some themes offering Castle Building, and the other Giovanni bake the best cake. Well.. it is still then a themepark, it is separated content.. that's is basicly the opposite of a sandbox, at least as i do see a sandobx.

But that one is rather easy.

a) Themeparks like Wildstar with some Themes offering contained sandbox, or better building/creating features. As it is already with Wildstar and their instanced build your home, garage and garden theme.

or

b) play different games(not even neccesarily a MMO) games with the minigames you like

But a MMO sandbox is more of a evolving world, which is affected from all player, and not only one. This may include that some interfere your gameplay in one way or the other (and this does not mean neccesarily pvp, aka combat with other players). A Virtual World, where the players have different tools to shape the world, and different pathes/roles to play in that world.

As i already said.. the difference from sandbox and themepark is not so much the content, or the single features, or gameplay.. it is much more how that content, that gameplay, those features are presented and mixed together. Themeparks separate things in tiny parts for (often, not always) casual fun. Whereas in a sandbox all are side by side and everyone can choose their gameplay, content, whatever.. but all will affect the others and the world. The one is together and against, the other is more like everyone on their own(this can be a small, or in case of raids big groups, or even just a single player)

But that may be the fundamental difference between themeparks and sandboxes.. maybe it is my opinion about sandboxes, and it is more a virtual world of what i think, and not a sandbox.. though a true virutal world have to have sandbox features/tools.

But well.. this discussion is rather off topic. But i guess the OP question is already answered anyway.

  kakasaki

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/06
Posts: 1263

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

6/05/14 6:07:53 PM#31

First, can we all come to an agreement as to was a sandbox game is??? Cause from all the years I've been playing MMOs and frequenting game sites, there has never been an agreement....

Also, graphics aren't everything. I would happily trade beautiful graphics for more choice and play depth in my MMOs...

A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5050

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/05/14 6:12:01 PM#32
If you think adding all the quests that a theme park has to a sandbox game makes the game a theme park then we are at an impasse. I think it is simply a sandbox game with even more choice.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

6/05/14 6:17:17 PM#33
Originally posted by Distopia
Archeage?

The only things AA has going for it in the 'sandbox' area is the skill tree freedom and the ability to progress in different ways.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16345

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

6/05/14 6:19:13 PM#34
Originally posted by flizzer
Originally posted by Distopia
Archeage?

Sandpark not sandbox.

 

This has been a complaint of mine for ages also.  I don't see any acceptable options at the moment.  I dislike looking at boxy voxel games despite the sandbox quality of many of these titles. 

Of course..silly me ...

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1047

6/05/14 10:13:45 PM#35
What Sandbox that has been released by a mainstream developers or large budget? SWG which art style is hit or miss with people.
  Azrile

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 2615

6/05/14 11:08:05 PM#36
Originally posted by kakasaki

First, can we all come to an agreement as to was a sandbox game is??? Cause from all the years I've been playing MMOs and frequenting game sites, there has never been an agreement....

Also, graphics aren't everything. I would happily trade beautiful graphics for more choice and play depth in my MMOs...

For me, graphics have to be acceptable...  but the part of the graphics that really needs to work is the combat animations.  And the other part is feedback via animations.  I like games where my character, and the NPC I am fighting react to the fight and give feedback about how the battle is going without having to stare at numbers.  It is very easy to have two ´was hit´ animations, one for minor hits, one for crit hits.

The problem with the last 5 years of MMOs is that the Dev companies have focused on the ´screenshot´ art, and not the animation and playable art.   Like having a 10k poly dagger and then having the combat animation be .5 seconds slow and your dagger swing be 5 feet away from the NPC but still record a hit.

  User Deleted
6/06/14 3:47:38 AM#37
Originally posted by Azrile
Originally posted by kakasaki

First, can we all come to an agreement as to was a sandbox game is??? Cause from all the years I've been playing MMOs and frequenting game sites, there has never been an agreement....

Also, graphics aren't everything. I would happily trade beautiful graphics for more choice and play depth in my MMOs...

For me, graphics have to be acceptable...  but the part of the graphics that really needs to work is the combat animations.  And the other part is feedback via animations.  I like games where my character, and the NPC I am fighting react to the fight and give feedback about how the battle is going without having to stare at numbers.  It is very easy to have two ´was hit´ animations, one for minor hits, one for crit hits.

The problem with the last 5 years of MMOs is that the Dev companies have focused on the ´screenshot´ art, and not the animation and playable art.   Like having a 10k poly dagger and then having the combat animation be .5 seconds slow and your dagger swing be 5 feet away from the NPC but still record a hit.

Get your graphics out of my sandbox definition. Yes they are graphics not aesthetics, learn the difference because next you'll tell me "EVE-Online would be awesome if it had hands on combat" which sounds nice in theory but would murder the server or cause widespread hacking (they regularly kill server nodes, even reinforced ones, during major fleet engagements with the current system, what do you think the extra input from thousands of people would do to the server?).

There's a reason most sandboxes have shit combat systems and why games like minecraft also look like arse: The type of graphics engine required to have destructible terrain in combat cannot be scaled up too far without A) murdering the server and B) murdering your average gamer PC, just look at EQN and Landmark.... and then realize that for a long, long time that is how good a sandbox will look that also has hands on combat (the former is not a sandbox yes but it does feature destructible terrain which is a hallmark of real sandboxes, one which is utterly lacking in most good looking sandboxes currently with good reason).

  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1515

6/06/14 4:29:47 AM#38
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Azrile
Originally posted by kakasaki

First, can we all come to an agreement as to was a sandbox game is??? Cause from all the years I've been playing MMOs and frequenting game sites, there has never been an agreement....

Also, graphics aren't everything. I would happily trade beautiful graphics for more choice and play depth in my MMOs...

For me, graphics have to be acceptable...  but the part of the graphics that really needs to work is the combat animations.  And the other part is feedback via animations.  I like games where my character, and the NPC I am fighting react to the fight and give feedback about how the battle is going without having to stare at numbers.  It is very easy to have two ´was hit´ animations, one for minor hits, one for crit hits.

The problem with the last 5 years of MMOs is that the Dev companies have focused on the ´screenshot´ art, and not the animation and playable art.   Like having a 10k poly dagger and then having the combat animation be .5 seconds slow and your dagger swing be 5 feet away from the NPC but still record a hit.

Get your graphics out of my sandbox definition. Yes they are graphics not aesthetics, learn the difference because next you'll tell me "EVE-Online would be awesome if it had hands on combat" which sounds nice in theory but would murder the server or cause widespread hacking (they regularly kill server nodes, even reinforced ones, during major fleet engagements with the current system, what do you think the extra input from thousands of people would do to the server?).

There's a reason most sandboxes have shit combat systems and why games like minecraft also look like arse: The type of graphics engine required to have destructible terrain in combat cannot be scaled up too far without A) murdering the server and B) murdering your average gamer PC, just look at EQN and Landmark.... and then realize that for a long, long time that is how good a sandbox will look that also has hands on combat (the former is not a sandbox yes but it does feature destructible terrain which is a hallmark of real sandboxes, one which is utterly lacking in most good looking sandboxes currently with good reason).

First of all you are right.. that some game mechanics, like seamless world, or 1000 player battles restrict the graphically(polygon count, texture size, and for network, hitboxes, latency, projectiles or not) quality. But nevertheless most indy sandboxes look ugly nevertheless, and not because of graphical limitation, but more because of aesthetic limitation of the development team.

And in all honestly, everyone saying that EvE or EQN look ugly don't know what they talk. Both look very good. And just because you don't like stylized Art doesn't make EQN a bad looking game.. because it isn't. Minecraft on the other side is ugly.. because art, design, voxel count did not matter as they made the game... the priority was gameplay.. and Art, aesthetics was a afterhthough.. if at all.

  EvilestTwin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/11
Posts: 287

6/06/14 4:58:07 AM#39

What about Black Desert Online?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G6EXTBrwUY

  User Deleted
6/06/14 5:21:26 AM#40
Originally posted by EvilestTwin

What about Black Desert Online?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G6EXTBrwUY

Sandpark by what I know...

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