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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will the MMORPG genre ever get out of this rut?

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80 posts found
  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

5/31/14 11:51:51 AM#41

Simply stated, if you continue to buy crap, they will continue to make crap.

 

The problem here is the consumer, not the developer...

 

Consumers pay to play an alpha for a game that is slated to be F2P.

Consumers pledge money to kick starters in order to get developers to make the game they want (which may or may not be vaporware).

Consumers pay real money for virtual items in cash shops.

Consumers pay subscriptions to games they hardly ever even play.

Consumers pre-purchase games in order to be part of the beta testing.

Consumers buy founders packs, lifetime subscriptions, you name it, based solely on hype and/or very limited exposure to the game.

Consumers will try every new game, even if it's not worth the box price, just to have something new to do while they wait on another game release.

 

Based on the above, there is no hope in sight for MMOs... the consumers are just plain daft.  They might as well put a lighter to their wallet and say "Hey kids, look... fireworks!"  Sure, some may have a brain, but they are so far outnumbered by those that don't that they are statistically insignificant.

 

  Boardwalker

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 383

5/31/14 11:54:27 AM#42

What rut? I'm having a blast! The only "rut" that I see is my ever consistent lack of time to play all the great MMORPGs that are available now.

 

If you feel the MMO industry is in a rut, it's time to look inward and re-examine whether this genre is right for you. It might be time to walk a way and try something else.

They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19242

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

5/31/14 12:30:15 PM#43
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran

 

 

LOL, yes the classic example about how to do it wrong, but there is hope even for you to one day realize your error.

LoL .. as if there is a "wrong" way to use entertainment products. I use it in any way I like it ... not only there is little anyone can do about that, devs seem to respond and cater to players like me.

 

People always do as they like, it just isn't always good for them or society (or gaming) as a whole.  Even if Dev's are catering to you, don't take it as a compliment, as they are currently pandering  to the lowest common denominator, it makes the most money after all.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Reklaw

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

5/31/14 12:36:03 PM#44

When the day comes we see topic being mature and constructive will be the time we might see as a community changes to this genre.

But topics like this one do more damage then good!

 

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 324

5/31/14 12:42:28 PM#45
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran

 

 

LOL, yes the classic example about how to do it wrong, but there is hope even for you to one day realize your error.

LoL .. as if there is a "wrong" way to use entertainment products. I use it in any way I like it ... not only there is little anyone can do about that, devs seem to respond and cater to players like me.

 

You're an advocate for playing solo because you don't want to deal with other folks.  Devs aren't making solo-friendly, massively multiplayer games because their massively multiplayer gamers all want to play singleplayer.  They're making them that way because the more casual players wanna be able to jump in and immediately make measurable progress.  Looking for a group is not measurable progress.  And since MMOs and PC gaming has become increasingly popular, more and more casual players are looking to jump into the genre.  These are the players developers are trying to cater to.  Not antisocial gamers who want to play in a social setting (note I mean to use the term antisocial, without its negative connotations, to simply identify a gamer who wishes to never interact with other players).

 

I agree there's no wrong way to use an entertainment product (so long as it does not interfere with others' ability to enjoy that product or stiff those who worked to create said product), but it's becoming increasingly obvious that you believe a cheap solution to a largely unrelated problem supports your theory about 9 out of 10 online gamers being purely awful human beings, your justification for playing solo, and your belief that everyone outside of these forums agrees with you.

 

Correlation does not always equal causation.

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

5/31/14 1:00:38 PM#46
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran

 

 

LOL, yes the classic example about how to do it wrong, but there is hope even for you to one day realize your error.

LoL .. as if there is a "wrong" way to use entertainment products. I use it in any way I like it ... not only there is little anyone can do about that, devs seem to respond and cater to players like me.

 

People always do as they like, it just isn't always good for them or society (or gaming) as a whole.  Even if Dev's are catering to you, don't take it as a compliment, as they are currently pandering  to the lowest common denominator, it makes the most money after all.

 

Who says how you like to play is better ? Have you done some study or market research to show this or are you just some guy on a forum that thinks his way is better than someone else's.

You call people the lowest common denominator because they treat games like games and not a substitute for real life but I doubt you'd get much support if you said it like that.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3180

5/31/14 1:07:30 PM#47

As much as a story and lore hog that I am, I think the problem with most new MMOs is they want to tell a story.  Old MMOs also told a story, but it wasn't the main story.  The main story was made up by the player.  This is the story that I used to enjoy the most.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of stories that the developers have made over the years that I love.  WotLK and Cata in WoW, I loved those stories, but nothing will ever beat the story that you write yourself into.  In Lotro, I spent about 5-6 hours thinking and writing a Bio and background story for my characters, that's for my main, maybe a little less for alts.  I miss the days when you'd be walking down the road and see something.  You think to yourself, "Self, my character is an adventurous knight, there may be bandits or something evil that needs vanquishing over there, let's do this! LEEEROOOY...okay maybe not lol".  Or maybe "Self, I'm a timid and master farmer.  I don't want to go over to that scary looking place.  I'd rather just stay near a town and grow crops to sell."  This is what I miss most in MMOs, the ability to choose.

 

Edit: Most MMOs today, you have enough quests or objectives to complete in an area to barely make it to the level that is needed for the next area.  I would rather have the choice to do like maybe 70% of the quests of an area to get the level for the next area or zone.  Even better, the game would be nice to level up with you like in Skyrim.  You could travel almost anywhere you wish (I could understand making some dungeons and stuff high level only), and do anything you wish, with no limitation from your level.

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 324

5/31/14 1:11:13 PM#48
Originally posted by Gravarg
As much as a story and lore hog that I am, I think the problem with most new MMOs is they want to tell a story.  Old MMOs also told a story, but it wasn't the main story.  The main story was made up by the player.  This is the story that I used to enjoy the most.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of stories that the developers have made over the years that I love.  WotLK and Cata in WoW, I loved those stories, but nothing will ever beat the story that you write yourself into.  In Lotro, I spent about 5-6 hours thinking and writing a Bio and background story for my characters, that's for my main, maybe a little less for alts.  I miss the days when you'd be walking down the road and see something.  You think to yourself, "Self, my character is an adventurous knight, there may be bandits or something evil that needs vanquishing over there, let's do this! LEEEROOOY...okay maybe not lol".  Or maybe "Self, I'm a timid and master farmer.  I don't want to go over to that scary looking place.  I'd rather just stay near a town and grow crops to sell."  This is what I miss most in MMOs, the ability to choose.

I also agree MMO developers are trying too hard to make every character the star of the story.  They try to tell a story in which your character is the integral hinge on which the entire game world swings.  It's not necessary, and I agree with you and feel time would be better spent creating a world that lives, breathes, and interacts with itself in dynamic ways that the player can inject himself into, rather than spent creating and writing grandiose stories that lead the player through very specific experiences.

  koboldfodder

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 367

5/31/14 1:14:00 PM#49

Read up on the history of video games.  In the early 80s, you had a massive influx of console games.  They were all trying to capitalize on the popularity of Pac Man, which was a big time culture cross over and money maker.  There was nothing there but $$$ to be reaped.

 

So they made every single game they could.  None of them were any good, didn't matter.  They pumped them out by the tens of thousands.  300 different versions of Pac Man.  And none of them were any good.  It quickly reached the point of market saturation.  There were not enough people buying the product, and that was the end of that.

 

What happened next was the rise of Nintendo.  An old, Japanese card game business steered the genre into better quality games.  Almost immediately, the older consoles like Atari, Intellivision and all of the other smaller consoles went out of business.  They could not make quality games, Nintendo could and they knew how to market them.

 

The number of people playing the games stayed about the same, but the actual number of available product was cut in half, all in about a year or so.

 

The point is, it took an outsider (which Nintendo was back then) to right the ship.  That is what will have to happen with the MMO genre.  You have well over 300 MMOs available right now to play, but there is not enough people even to support a third of that number of MMOs.

 

But because of the dreaded "Free to Play" business model, they can stretch out their games a lot longer than the console wars could.  A crappy Free to Play game can be in existence a lot longer than a crappy Pac Man rip off, because it's free to play...when we all know it's not.

 

Just making a subscription game is not the answer.  Star Wars tried that, and it was a epic failure.  Elder Scrolls is trying the same thing, and it will turn out the same.

 

They need to focus on the actual game not the business plan.  They do not understand that it is the Free to Play business model that halts creativity and forces you to design these chopped up, crap MMOs.

 

SO an outside developer, with probably his own money, will have to do what Nintendo did in the 80s.  Create a game that is a great product, collect a big percentage of the playing base, and force those crap MMOs out of business.  But it's not Chris Roberts, or Richard Garriot, or any of the known outside developers.  It has to be someone who thinks in a different way, is not afraid to fail, and is willing to take total control over every aspect of his product.

 

So far, that person has not appeared on the map.

  APRIME

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 69

5/31/14 1:23:33 PM#50
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran

 

 

LOL, yes the classic example about how to do it wrong, but there is hope even for you to one day realize your error.

LoL .. as if there is a "wrong" way to use entertainment products. I use it in any way I like it ... not only there is little anyone can do about that, devs seem to respond and cater to players like me.

 

People always do as they like, it just isn't always good for them or society (or gaming) as a whole.  Even if Dev's are catering to you, don't take it as a compliment, as they are currently pandering  to the lowest common denominator, it makes the most money after all.

 

Who says how you like to play is better ? Have you done some study or market research to show this or are you just some guy on a forum that thinks his way is better than someone else's.

You call people the lowest common denominator because they treat games like games and not a substitute for real life but I doubt you'd get much support if you said it like that.

 

My money is on some guy on a forum.

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

5/31/14 1:27:47 PM#51
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by c0exist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
And yet millions of people are somehow having fun and paying for the games you consider garbage. Maybe it's you.

Yes millions of people are having fun but you forgot a keyword there and thats temporarily.  The problem is not with the game at its core its more of a longevity issue.  People have their "fun" and hop to the next title.  Many on here see spending years on an MMO as a waste of time; actually taking time to build you character.  A waste of time to me is playing an MMO for 2 months just to jump to another.  I would rather just not play which I havent for the most part.  I dont believe it ever will change.  Hopefully one day there will be a developer that realizes not all of us wanted to be teleported everywhere, autogrouped up and instanced to death. 

All games are temporary. The idea of being dedicated to a single game for years is just not viable anymore. 

Embrace the temporary as that is our reality.

I reject your thesis, some day someone will build a game worthy of playing over the long haul, just won't be anything like the current offerings.

 

The players are changing - you are not taking that into the equation - the way we use technology is evolving as is the way we play games.

Its a lot more likely that future gamers play, leave, play, leave again (which is what the F2P model is perfect for) than the old idea of keeping a player for years - that model is dying out.

Remember that we are living in time of accelerated technology growth, our attention span is getting shorter and shorter, the new trends are coming in faster and faster and there is simply less time for an average gamer to stick to a single game.

So I will hold unto my thesis - time will tell, and

time destroys all things.

Well aren't you just a breath of sunshine. Bottom line seems to be that games being made to be disposable are the best way for companies to make money, because, like you said, the masses (newer gamers) don't want deep, time-consuming gameplay. They just want mmo's to play like single player games and be done in a few months so they can move on to the next. Us players that want deep, imersive worlds to game in for years aren't in high enough numbers for devs to bother with. Sucks for us, but mmos will never be that way again. We are too few.

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

5/31/14 2:22:37 PM#52
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Read up on the history of video games.  In the early 80s, you had a massive influx of console games.  They were all trying to capitalize on the popularity of Pac Man, which was a big time culture cross over and money maker.  There was nothing there but $$$ to be reaped.

 

So they made every single game they could.  None of them were any good, didn't matter.  They pumped them out by the tens of thousands.  300 different versions of Pac Man.  And none of them were any good.  It quickly reached the point of market saturation.  There were not enough people buying the product, and that was the end of that.

 

What happened next was the rise of Nintendo.  An old, Japanese card game business steered the genre into better quality games.  Almost immediately, the older consoles like Atari, Intellivision and all of the other smaller consoles went out of business.  They could not make quality games, Nintendo could and they knew how to market them.

 

The number of people playing the games stayed about the same, but the actual number of available product was cut in half, all in about a year or so.

 

The point is, it took an outsider (which Nintendo was back then) to right the ship.  That is what will have to happen with the MMO genre.  You have well over 300 MMOs available right now to play, but there is not enough people even to support a third of that number of MMOs.

 

But because of the dreaded "Free to Play" business model, they can stretch out their games a lot longer than the console wars could.  A crappy Free to Play game can be in existence a lot longer than a crappy Pac Man rip off, because it's free to play...when we all know it's not.

 

Just making a subscription game is not the answer.  Star Wars tried that, and it was a epic failure.  Elder Scrolls is trying the same thing, and it will turn out the same.

 

They need to focus on the actual game not the business plan.  They do not understand that it is the Free to Play business model that halts creativity and forces you to design these chopped up, crap MMOs.

 

SO an outside developer, with probably his own money, will have to do what Nintendo did in the 80s.  Create a game that is a great product, collect a big percentage of the playing base, and force those crap MMOs out of business.  But it's not Chris Roberts, or Richard Garriot, or any of the known outside developers.  It has to be someone who thinks in a different way, is not afraid to fail, and is willing to take total control over every aspect of his product.

 

So far, that person has not appeared on the map.

It's a bit different in some ways.  The Nintendo was a lot more powerful then an Atari and that meant a lot in those days.  The Super Nintendo was also a fair amount better then the Nintendo adding a large amount more colors and being 16 bit.  It's difficult to produce something new on the merits of hardware alone in this age.  I have a Windows 8 x86 (32 bit) tablet running a full version of Windows that is 8 inches and I can carry around.  Most people don't even want to upgrade their hardware these days unless it's their phone or tablet.  I doubt it would make a huge difference anyway.  Games are already more complex (to make) then they need to be.  You could argue that some older games were actually more complex to play then todays games even though they were quite a bit simpler to make.  I really dislike RMT and MMOs today, but I don't see how it's going to go away as people seem to want to play them.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20147

5/31/14 5:43:55 PM#53
Originally posted by ropenice
 

Well aren't you just a breath of sunshine. Bottom line seems to be that games being made to be disposable are the best way for companies to make money, because, like you said, the masses (newer gamers) don't want deep, time-consuming gameplay. They just want mmo's to play like single player games and be done in a few months so they can move on to the next. Us players that want deep, imersive worlds to game in for years aren't in high enough numbers for devs to bother with. Sucks for us, but mmos will never be that way again. We are too few.

Except deep and time consuming is not related. Deus Ex has deep gameplay. Dishonored has deep gameplay. All those games can be done in 2 weeks.

And yes, it would be good (for me) that MMOs play like deep SP games, and can be done in a few months, or even a few weeks.

 

  Master.Ryu

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 55

5/31/14 5:52:27 PM#54
Not if people continue to pay for the same garbage in 2004. That low of a standard, not many developers will look far if they feel that most fans standards are that low.
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5772

5/31/14 5:57:13 PM#55
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by DMKano

 

The bottom line is - coming up with a AAA game that will be a hit 5 years from now - good luck with that, it is an incredibly difficult task.

 

That is not how software is being built, or rather not the only way. Look up Agile software development. That can and should be applied to game development and I suspect it already is.

Agile is absolutely used in game Dev - I know agile PMs that work for major online game companies.

However the funding - and the vision, the concept that gets the funding are not done using agile - they can't be as you have to pitch the "end state" of the game as a finished product 5 years from now to GET the funding.

But yes the week to week development during those years is agile based.

Still doesn't change the fact that building a quest centric themepark game over 5 years makes zero difference that you use agile during those 5 years, its still gonna end up a quest centric themepark game when its completed.

 

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

6/01/14 5:25:26 PM#56
MMORPGs are indeed in a rut. But the main thing I do not see is challenge, gripping action from level one, dungeon-crawling, etc.  Even going back to EQ so much of the action in these games has seemed to focus on standing in one place in an outdoor area, killing a safe, static group of monsters. I imagine an MMO with a much more dangerous frontier--mostly only wildlife in the overworld areas, but in caves, fortresses, etc., hostile entities, which have reasons for killing them. When people talk about the "glory days" of EQ I often think of standing in the Oasis killing crocodiles.  Heroism, power, and fame should be earned, and there is no better way to do this than to enter into dangerous areas, at risk of experience, items, and life, and come out victorious. Anything less is a treadmill, and at no point do I support "tutorials"--that is what the manual is for. Sadly, if games like this were not made in '99, they will not be made now. That is why I voted yes.
  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

6/01/14 5:56:09 PM#57

These games are just products of their environment. Unless we can get out of the "rut" of giving in when a bad game is released, they will keep releasing bad games. The only way we can do this is by upholding standards, which is essentially impossible with the massive amount of players, or there will be a game released that establishes the standard of a real AAA title. I'm a strong believer in supporting what you enjoy, whether it be art, music, institutions, etc. but it irks me seeing players blindly supporting these games that are released half-baked just because they saw promise in the hype.

We used to be a timid bunch, waiting for games to be released, reviewed, and fully complete in their development before deciding on the purchase. Now, we pre-order, preview, and prematurely buy games we don't even know if they are up to our standards. It's enticing to be the first in a game, to have your name reserved, or even see a game before it is released, but this has really gone too far. They literally have our money before they release the product. We, as the target audience and player base, are just a bunch of animals ready to strike the next moving thing before we know if it is a tasty snack or a load of excrement rolling down the hill.

As a web developer, there is nothing more disappointing than showing the preview of a product to a client if the entire rest of the product cannot hold up to the same standard you have set for yourself. You are destined to fail in the client's eyes from that point forward unless that standard is maintained. No matter what you do to keep that standard, if you fall below it, the client will be disappointed because the preview you showed them is the standard they maintain for the ENTIRE application. This is why we, by far, have been the most disappointed in most MMORPGs that have come out within the past years.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3616

6/01/14 7:42:29 PM#58
Im actually surprised so many are defending teh genre thinking it is healthier than ever?....When EA closed down Mythic they stated taht they could make more money with a single free mobile app now than they can with a multi million dollar budget MMO...Sure I think there are enough of us to keep MMOs fairly healthy for a few years but I really donmt see the incentive for companies to keep making them....PC sales have declined severely the last couple of years, and unless MMOs are headed for phones, tablets, and consoles I jsut dont see companies continuing to spend resources in this area.
  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

6/01/14 7:56:12 PM#59
Originally posted by Theocritus
Im actually surprised so many are defending teh genre thinking it is healthier than ever?....When EA closed down Mythic they stated taht they could make more money with a single free mobile app now than they can with a multi million dollar budget MMO...Sure I think there are enough of us to keep MMOs fairly healthy for a few years but I really donmt see the incentive for companies to keep making them....PC sales have declined severely the last couple of years, and unless MMOs are headed for phones, tablets, and consoles I jsut dont see companies continuing to spend resources in this area.

I believe this is the problem.  People are spending too much money on crappy RMT (free to play games).  The MMO Market is making money sadly.  It's making more then I would like to see.  If the major developers concentrated on phone apps that would be good for myself as I don't play phone apps or free to play.  That would leave the market to people who actually care about the genre instead of mass market.  Maybe things would go back to a subscription based model and the people playing MMOs now would go play crappy phone apps more.  Unfortunately I don't think you can say the MMO market is unhealthy at all in terms of making money overall.  They are making a lot more then they did off the old MMOs (which provided a profit).  I doubt phone apps cost much to make, they have a bit larger audience, and they do the same thing as MMOs in terms of crappy (RMT) rip offs.  It would be more accurate to say that phone apps are more profitable.  That doesn't mean the MMO market isn't worth the effort.  There are only so many phone apps they can make.  Right now they are milking money from both sides even if the phone app is the more profitable one.  Sadly that's all these companies think about.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20147

6/01/14 9:17:10 PM#60
Originally posted by Rossboss

These games are just products of their environment. Unless we can get out of the "rut" of giving in when a bad game is released, they will keep releasing bad games. The only way we can do this is by upholding standards, which is essentially impossible with the massive amount of players, or there will be a game released that establishes the standard of a real AAA title. I'm a strong believer in supporting what you enjoy, whether it be art, music, institutions, etc. but it irks me seeing players blindly supporting these games that are released half-baked just because they saw promise in the hype.

"blindly"?

If people supporting stuff you don't like, they are "blind"? May be they just have different preferences.

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