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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Most Important Aspect in an MMO and Why Recent Games Have "Failed"

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  Alders

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1761

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

5/26/14 4:16:07 PM#41

Using MMO's for social aspects is probably foreign to younger players.  They have a dozen other better options for that.

For that aspect to make a return, the game would have to be designed for a crowd 35+ with a playerbase under 200k.  No company or studio wants to invest in that demographic.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

5/26/14 4:30:36 PM#42
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by rounner
Originally posted by DamonVile

If you forced your friends to hang out with you and socialize would they be your friends.....would they even like you ? Or would they resent the fact that they had to do this just to get what they really want.

Why do you think forcing people to do it in a game would turn out better ?

He didn't say friends. Trading doesn't need to be with friends and could even be with enemies. PVP definitely doesn't need to be with friends. Forming alliances and truces in PVP doesn't need to be with friends. Even grouping to do dungeon runs doesn't require having a barbeque afterwards.

But none of that is socializing, none of that is having a community.  If I go into a store and buy something, I'm not socializing with the cashier. I'm interacting.  I don't have to say three words to them to pay for my purchase.  If that's what people want in a game, okay, I guess.  That's just not what they claim they want.  They want the same kind of community they had in the good old days, but that's gone and will never, ever, ever come back again.  I've explained why many times in the past.

Honestly, interaction is one of the biggest lacking things in MMORPG's.  Everyone is playing inside of a bubble these days.  Developers stomped out all interactions to prevent bad ones.  So basically you can group and trade with players.  Even most times when you can PvP you can't touch or talk to them outside of defined areas.  I goes along with the whole appeasement trend you have in this genre and maybe in "young" generation period.  

  psiic

Elite Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 728

5/26/14 4:45:20 PM#43
Originally posted by DamonVile

If you forced your friends to hang out with you and socialize would they be your friends.....would they even like you ? Or would they resent the fact that they had to do this just to get what they really want.

Why do you think forcing people to do it in a game would turn out better ?

 

In EQ we may have had competing guilds racing for mobs and may have trained and steam rolled over each other to get to those mobs.

However, EVERYONE treated everyone else with respect and honor.

 

I remember we had one guy on our server that was such a dick to people that he became shunned by our entire server, he ended up quitting the game because nobody would talk to him or group with him so he could no longer progress in the game.

 

Problem is now  most of the gamers are dicks, and the people who treat people with respect and honor are the ones shunned. 

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/26/14 5:37:22 PM#44
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by rounner
Originally posted by DamonVile

If you forced your friends to hang out with you and socialize would they be your friends.....would they even like you ? Or would they resent the fact that they had to do this just to get what they really want.

Why do you think forcing people to do it in a game would turn out better ?

He didn't say friends. Trading doesn't need to be with friends and could even be with enemies. PVP definitely doesn't need to be with friends. Forming alliances and truces in PVP doesn't need to be with friends. Even grouping to do dungeon runs doesn't require having a barbeque afterwards.

But none of that is socializing, none of that is having a community.  If I go into a store and buy something, I'm not socializing with the cashier. I'm interacting.  I don't have to say three words to them to pay for my purchase.  If that's what people want in a game, okay, I guess.  That's just not what they claim they want.  They want the same kind of community they had in the good old days, but that's gone and will never, ever, ever come back again.  I've explained why many times in the past.

Honestly, interaction is one of the biggest lacking things in MMORPG's.  Everyone is playing inside of a bubble these days.  Developers stomped out all interactions to prevent bad ones.  So basically you can group and trade with players.  Even most times when you can PvP you can't touch or talk to them outside of defined areas.  I goes along with the whole appeasement trend you have in this genre and maybe in "young" generation period.  

But there is interaction.  If I sell something to someone, I interact with them.  If I answer someone's question in chat, I'm interacting.  If I join a PUG, I'm interacting.  I'm not socializing with anyone, the second I walk away from them, there is no more interaction.   Developers didn't stomp these things out, players didn't want them.  Developers can't stop people from interacting without making a single-player game where no one has any contact whatsoever with anyone else, ever.  You can group and trade with people if you want.  You're not required to.  People don't generally socialize when they group or trade though, it's a transaction, not a social activity.

Social activities are no longer important in MMOs.  The vast majority of people don't want to take part in it, that's why developers don't push it.  They cater to the vast majority, always have and always will.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/26/14 5:38:46 PM#45
Originally posted by psiic
Originally posted by DamonVile

If you forced your friends to hang out with you and socialize would they be your friends.....would they even like you ? Or would they resent the fact that they had to do this just to get what they really want.

Why do you think forcing people to do it in a game would turn out better ?

 

In EQ we may have had competing guilds racing for mobs and may have trained and steam rolled over each other to get to those mobs.

However, EVERYONE treated everyone else with respect and honor.

 

I remember we had one guy on our server that was such a dick to people that he became shunned by our entire server, he ended up quitting the game because nobody would talk to him or group with him so he could no longer progress in the game.

 

Problem is now  most of the gamers are dicks, and the people who treat people with respect and honor are the ones shunned. 

That's a complete lie, there were tons of dicks in EQ.  You've got a very convenient memory.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  coventryhagdog

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/14
Posts: 94

 
OP  5/26/14 5:43:48 PM#46
Originally posted by Cephus404

 

That's a complete lie, there were tons of dicks in EQ.  You've got a very convenient memory.

 

    Lies and slander. EQ and any other MMO 10+ years back didn't have half the ton of smegma that pervades todays MMOs.

   Got to separate the wheat from the chaff somehow.... somehow.

   Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the industry has been evading that aspect intentionally, because it realizes that there is nothing to fuse the populations of indignant maggots. However that would be impossible, because then I would have somehow been wrong and I could never be wrong.

  Therefore populations today are comparable to populations then.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1876

5/26/14 5:46:50 PM#47
Originally posted by coventryhagdog
Originally posted by Cephus404

 

That's a complete lie, there were tons of dicks in EQ.  You've got a very convenient memory.

 

    Lies and slander. EQ and any other MMO 10+ years back didn't have half the ton of smegma that pervades todays MMOs.

   Got to separate the wheat from the chaff somehow.... somehow.

   Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the industry has been evading that aspect intentionally, because it realizes that there is nothing to fuse the populations of indignant maggots. However that would be impossible, because then I would have somehow been wrong and I could never be wrong.

  Therefore populations today are comparable to populations then.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this fine sir is confused as to why people do not group with him.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/26/14 5:48:58 PM#48
No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 374

5/26/14 5:52:49 PM#49


Originally posted by Cephus404But there is interaction.  If I sell something to someone, I interact with them.  If I answer someone's question in chat, I'm interacting.  If I join a PUG, I'm interacting.  I'm not socializing with anyone, the second I walk away from them, there is no more interaction.   Developers didn't stomp these things out, players didn't want them.  Developers can't stop people from interacting without making a single-player game where no one has any contact whatsoever with anyone else, ever.  You can group and trade with people if you want.  You're not required to.  People don't generally socialize when they group or trade though, it's a transaction, not a social activity. Social activities are no longer important in MMOs.  The vast majority of people don't want to take part in it, that's why developers don't push it.  They cater to the vast majority, always have and always will.
 

That may be true when you consider the generational effects on the playerbase. The kids that were still growing up when EQ1 and UO were in their prime are the kids that are all grown up now, buying video games and becoming the number one demographic for such games. Maybe they don't want to have to socialize in an MMO. Maybe that's so.

I know I'd still love to have the feeling I used to get logging into DAoC back in its prime. But maybe those games are relics. However, I'll always find it silly to hear that in a massively multiplayer game, the majority of the playerbase would rather everyone else shove off so they can play the game alone.

  coventryhagdog

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/14
Posts: 94

 
OP  5/26/14 5:59:35 PM#50
Originally posted by Rusque
 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this fine sir is confused as to why people do not group with him.

 

On the contrary. I am well aware why people do not group with me. It is because they are simply not worthy.

To even be considered worthy of approaching me in-game, you must pass the trials of flame, cross the gorge of mountains end and best the dragon of despair.

To even be considered worthy of inviting me, you must have done the aforementioned naked.

To even be considered worthy of grouping with me, you must be naked.

Few meet the above criteria. Less know the joys of nudity.

  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2548

5/26/14 6:04:42 PM#51

I played Everquest from 1999 and my memory even though I am getting old can definitely testify there was horrible dicks in Everquest. The deterrent was that they were refused groups and levelling opportunities if their rubbish behaviour got out. So those people bided their time until they got into guilds or  more powerful positions like leaders of big guilds. Then they would treat people outside the guilds and sometimes even inside the guilds horribly . I have witnessed it first hand and also not being a golden enchanter or cleric  was not in a position to fight the nonsense they tried to pull.

 

The number of players on each server was small compared to the numbers you see now. So when people trained others or stole camps and did other things word got out quickly. So players found themselves quickly ostracized so they played more carefully .This did not mean there were fewer people who would not have behaved poorly if the gaming atmosphere allowed them to.

 

Nowadays gaming dynamics having changed and people get into LFG and other systems to get groups and cross server mechanics this circumspection in behaviour is no longer necessary. So their true nature just surfaces. People who help others or play with others well do not change because you have a system put in place. They will help and play nicely because they are decent people. However anonymity does breed opportunities for the borderline dicks to become full blown ones.

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  Gormogon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 166

5/26/14 6:09:36 PM#52

The fact that TURNIPS is not winning says a lot about how out of touch the people on this site are with today's broader mmropg community.

 

But really, the mistake is in thinking that today's players want to play the same game indefinitely and be a part of that game's community.  Most of them don't, and the rest of the player base is not large enough to justify large-scale games with today's production costs.   Today's consumer market consists largely of solo gamers whose self-esteem is derived from comparing and showing off their gaming accomplishments to others.  MMORPGs make that possible in a way traditional single player games do not.  These people don't usually want anything to do with you or anyone else (except maybe a few friends) unless perhaps to put you down.  That's not to say they can't be perfectly civil and cooperative; most of them can.  It's just not normally worth their time to go out of their way for it.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/26/14 6:18:26 PM#53
Somehow those ducks still managed to get epics and flagged and new flash equipment do someone wad grouping with them. Blacklisting was a myth. It only worked with your particular circle of friends

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2548

5/26/14 6:22:41 PM#54
In Guk I recall players getting turned away for poor reps unless they were a cleric. Dickhead clerics got away with most anything. In the first year before Kunark reputation really mattered things did change later though.

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  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/26/14 6:34:38 PM#55
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

5/26/14 6:47:55 PM#56
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

I don't.  Communities weren't better because of better players.  They just mattered more and existed for better and world.  But I rather have to deal with assholes then be in a bubble.   There is very little players can do to negatively effect your gameplay.  While griefing sucks going through the motions of playing games that are very predictable, no consequences and generally easy is very boring.  

  BartDaCat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/04
Posts: 823

Gamer Forums, where "First World Problems" are our specialty!

5/26/14 6:49:47 PM#57
Originally posted by jdizzle2k13

In all honesty, I think the most important aspect in any MMO is different for different people.  But I would say combat.  Since most of my time in an MMO is generally spent fighting something, be it a mob or another player, I want fun combat.  It doesn't matter if I play the game for 3 hours or 3 years.

I'm not denying the importance of the social aspect of the game.  Heck if it weren't for the friends I made in WoW I most likely wouldn't have played it as long as I have.  I'm just saying that for me, fun combat is important.

I'd have to agree with you to an extent, because combat does play a major role in almost every other aspect of your "typical" MMORPG; hunting to gather resources, killing for survival in the wild as you explore, and combat for defense and/or pleasure.

 

To explore what "good" combat consists of is an undertaking in itself.  Do NPC enemies have decent AI to add to the challenge?  Are the combat skills your character possesses aesthetically pleasing?  Do the combat skills your character wields have enough of an impact to both satisfy your play style and your current experience level?  Is the combat balanced?  The list goes on... Even in the single-player, "sleeper hit" survival titles, players are challenged to find and/or craft better equipment to stake more of a claim/survive bigger challenges to their well-being- so, does the gear fit the character, and does that contribute to a perception of "good" combat?  

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1040

5/26/14 7:05:26 PM#58
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by rounner
Originally posted by DamonVile

If you forced your friends to hang out with you and socialize would they be your friends.....would they even like you ? Or would they resent the fact that they had to do this just to get what they really want.

Why do you think forcing people to do it in a game would turn out better ?

He didn't say friends. Trading doesn't need to be with friends and could even be with enemies. PVP definitely doesn't need to be with friends. Forming alliances and truces in PVP doesn't need to be with friends. Even grouping to do dungeon runs doesn't require having a barbeque afterwards.

But none of that is socializing, none of that is having a community.  If I go into a store and buy something, I'm not socializing with the cashier. I'm interacting.  I don't have to say three words to them to pay for my purchase.  If that's what people want in a game, okay, I guess.  That's just not what they claim they want.  They want the same kind of community they had in the good old days, but that's gone and will never, ever, ever come back again.  I've explained why many times in the past.

Honestly, interaction is one of the biggest lacking things in MMORPG's.  Everyone is playing inside of a bubble these days.  Developers stomped out all interactions to prevent bad ones.  So basically you can group and trade with players.  Even most times when you can PvP you can't touch or talk to them outside of defined areas.  I goes along with the whole appeasement trend you have in this genre and maybe in "young" generation period.  

But there is interaction.  If I sell something to someone, I interact with them.  If I answer someone's question in chat, I'm interacting.  If I join a PUG, I'm interacting.  I'm not socializing with anyone, the second I walk away from them, there is no more interaction.   Developers didn't stomp these things out, players didn't want them.  Developers can't stop people from interacting without making a single-player game where no one has any contact whatsoever with anyone else, ever.  You can group and trade with people if you want.  You're not required to.  People don't generally socialize when they group or trade though, it's a transaction, not a social activity.

Social activities are no longer important in MMOs.  The vast majority of people don't want to take part in it, that's why developers don't push it.  They cater to the vast majority, always have and always will.

 

I should be clear there be very little overly negative or positive interaction from players.  They aren't purposely stomping interaction out.  They've done it by convenience and anti-grief tools.  You can't twink a friend or train a mob or steal kill or be competitive over mobs or even PvP without special situations.  

 

Of course, there is nothing stopping players from seeking groups and other players.  Its limited it.  It just nothing that needs to be done nor efficient to the psychologically driven treadmill.  Its like saying the rats could run the maze to get the food instead of running the straight line to the food.   Choice is there but...

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

5/26/14 7:11:22 PM#59
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

And that's the point that seems to be lost on all of this forced grouping nonsense. You can't change the way people are. Forced grouping will only lead to more group but no talking situations.

The only way you will ever have the social environment you're looking for is to find the like minded people who want the same and create the community you want to be part of. The devs can't and wont do it for you.

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

5/26/14 7:16:28 PM#60

Analyzing why games fail yet fail to bring in other key aspects like, crafting/production, trade, and resource gathering.  Lets not even mention that you need all of the features you mentioned, plus the aforementioned, to create an immersive and compelling world not a single aspect of a game.

Great poll and great insight ... lol.

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