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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Solo (lol) MMORPGs shouldn't have forced group contents .

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118 posts found
  kabitoshin

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 730

5/25/14 12:39:37 PM#21
Originally posted by Asm0deus

What I find strange is people that play massively multiplayer games yet really want to solo like it was a single player game...

Honestly if I could find a SP with a massive world as some MMO's with fun PvE and updates every couple months I'd be done with this genre.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1036

5/25/14 1:06:35 PM#22
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by iixviiiix

From start of game to level 20 , you solo questing .

Then at level 20 the game force you group to finish dungeon quests.

manage to get pass the level 20 dungeon after finish it 1 time and never look back

then after 10 level solo , another dungeon force player to group lol .

Then solo 10 more levels , another force group contents appear .

 

Then after 10 more solo levels .... after 10 more  ... after ... 10 ... after ....

 

Okay , i don't know why they keep this retard design around .

If the game design total for solo , then why add group contents ? It feel like sweet candy with salt at core , seriously .

If they going to make solo MMORPGs from the start , never add forced group contents.

 

No trading (no bots lol) , no AH , no forced group . If they want to create solo (lol) MMORPGs.

 

Then how they disguised they game as MMORPGs to draw the crowd ?

Simple , the town are place where players see other ,

there are chat box for players to chat with other .

Players can make party at town

And when player join party , they become weaker so the contents become harder and more challenge . And the reward are same as solo playing.

They still Massively (at town and chat box ) multiplayer (optional) online (DRM lol) role-playing game

But build total for solo with multiplayer option.

 

No trading = no worry about bot , no worry about cheat , no more accounts hack .

Wonderful MMORPGs (lol) , so why keep (Forced) group contents when you build your MMORPG total for solo play ?

 

Yes! my question is

why keep (Forced) group contents when you build your MMORPG total for solo play ?

Seriously , who want sweet candy with salt at core ?

 

 

You are confused. MMO were never designed for solo.

 

the filler content was designed for solo, since sits filler content and meaningless. That's why in most MMO, you notice the only solo parts are the leveling part of the game, and not the meaningful endgame content.

 

There are a handful of MMORPGs that have majority forced grouped combat.  There hundreds that are solo combat.  Even EQ's community was more built around slow leveling, downtime and difficult.  

  Kopogero

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/27/09
Posts: 657

5/25/14 1:17:10 PM#23

I agree with OP and only in freedom friendly, sandbox worlds players can exceed in their specific role to do tasks that others would require to do together. In a themepark worlds where they are more directed how the player can approach them usually doesn't work that.

For instance, me being a power light jedi knight. I find a rare, random krayt dragon patrolling the deserts of Tatooine. This powerful dragon required a squad of players to tackle it, but me with my powers I could manage it solo. So as I fought with it a squad came and whoever did the most damage to the creature was worthy of its loot.

So yes, that is one example of a freedom and not a forced group content.

Starcraft aka wise/04. SWG/UO aka Wise HeRo, Light Jedi Knight pre-cu (Bria)

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 322

5/25/14 1:39:19 PM#24
Originally posted by Ghavrigg
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by MMOExposed

You are confused. MMO were never designed for solo.

the filler content was designed for solo, since sits filler content and meaningless. That's why in most MMO, you notice the only solo parts are the leveling part of the game, and not the meaningful endgame content.

No, this time you are wrong. MMOs now aren't designed for solo-centric progression. At one time there was no arbitrary line defining playstyles. There was just content in the open world and you could play and progress with whatever number of players you wanted.

They were designed no differently than today, really. If you didn't group, you were cut off to parts of the game that were too hard to solo, at least at the appropriate level, gear, whatever range, but soloing was possible, though a slower form of progression.

They're pretty close in speed nowadays, though.

That's the problem.  While grouping shouldn't be an insta-accelerate button for leveling or grinding rep/honor/what have you, it's potential should be much higher than the solo progression's potential.  It's not.  ESO is probably the worst culprit I've seen of this: doing a rather challenging, instanced group dungeon (including the quest turn-in for completion) was literally the worst way to level.  It also provided very, very little in the way of monetary or loot rewards.  It was, overall, a complete waste of time to build that group and complete that dungeon.  That's just silly.

Grouping should be the fastest method of leveling/grinding in the game when done effectively, period.  To provide a solo option that competes with having a good group is doing a disservice to what it originally meant to be an MMO, in my opinion.  It may look good on the box sales initially to have such a design in place, but it won't really last or make a permanent imprint on the field.

  Ghavrigg

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 727

5/25/14 1:43:26 PM#25
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Ghavrigg
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by MMOExposed

You are confused. MMO were never designed for solo.

the filler content was designed for solo, since sits filler content and meaningless. That's why in most MMO, you notice the only solo parts are the leveling part of the game, and not the meaningful endgame content.

No, this time you are wrong. MMOs now aren't designed for solo-centric progression. At one time there was no arbitrary line defining playstyles. There was just content in the open world and you could play and progress with whatever number of players you wanted.

They were designed no differently than today, really. If you didn't group, you were cut off to parts of the game that were too hard to solo, at least at the appropriate level, gear, whatever range, but soloing was possible, though a slower form of progression.

They're pretty close in speed nowadays, though.

That's the problem.  While grouping shouldn't be an insta-accelerate button for leveling or grinding rep/honor/what have you, it's potential should be much higher than the solo progression's potential.  It's not.  ESO is probably the worst culprit I've seen of this: doing a rather challenging, instanced group dungeon (including the quest turn-in for completion) was literally the worst way to level.  It also provided very, very little in the way of monetary or loot rewards.  It was, overall, a complete waste of time to build that group and complete that dungeon.  That's just silly.

Grouping should be the fastest method of leveling/grinding in the game when done effectively, period.  To provide a solo option that competes with having a good group is doing a disservice to what it originally meant to be an MMO, in my opinion.  It may look good on the box sales initially to have such a design in place, but it won't really last or make a permanent imprint on the field.

Exactly.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/25/14 1:49:53 PM#26
Except it has made a permanent imprint and lasting impression. Those gangs last years. The original mmorpg games had soloing had a viable and real option. Eq broke that design. They are now coming back to their roots.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/25/14 1:50:24 PM#27
Err gangs equals games.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 884

5/25/14 2:37:43 PM#28
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Asm0deus

What I find strange is people that play massively multiplayer games yet really want to solo like it was a single player game...

[mod edit]

I find it strange when someone has been here 4 years almost and still feels the needs to take exception to a simple comment that has no judgement intended on anyone. It baffles me that because I find it strange to want to solo  a mmorpg some read extra in it like I was on some kind of crusade or whine fest.

I did not start this thread so kindly leave off the personal attacks mkay?  Regurgitating?

 

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Honestly if I could find a SP with a massive world as some MMO's with fun PvE and updates every couple months I'd be done with this genre.

Yes I can understand that though there are some nice single player games out there. Myself I mostly duo, solo and if I really like a game then I join a guild or make my own for the group content.

I am really not a big fan of the group finders like in Neverwinter and other such PWE games.  I daresay as well that the group finder in DDO is one I like.

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  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 884

5/25/14 3:12:23 PM#29

 


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by Asm0deus What I find strange is people that play massively multiplayer games yet really want to solo like it was a single player game...
  People thinking that MMORPG's have to have grouped combat to be social are far more of a problem then those wanting solo combat.  I guess the shallow nature of the genre leads if you group up in combat you're not being social.   Forced grouped combat is only one method of doing but many of the social experiences I had were in games you could solo combat like UO and SWG.  
Ah, I wasn't really talking about the social aspect, I was meaning more of mechanic wise. I have no problem with soloing content but I feel in a mmorpg soloing should be something that is not easily done and should be an accomplishment done only via game knowledge gear and practice or skill. 

 

I think grouping should make things (content) easier and give good incentives like XP and loot benefits. I am not saying we shouldn't be able to solo anything without a group, I also feel likewise group content shouldn't be "forced". I think if you over level something or are really really good you should be able to at least try to solo it.

Nowadays I find solo content is an easy cakewalk then they overcompensate by making group content forced and overly difficult in some cases. It feels out of whack or unbalanced to me.

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  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3739

RIP City of Heroes!

5/25/14 6:25:23 PM#30
Originally posted by iixviiiix

From start of game to level 20 , you solo questing .

Then at level 20 the game force you group to finish dungeon quests.

manage to get pass the level 20 dungeon after finish it 1 time and never look back

then after 10 level solo , another dungeon force player to group lol .

Then solo 10 more levels , another force group contents appear .

 

Then after 10 more solo levels .... after 10 more  ... after ... 10 ... after ....

 

Okay , i don't know why they keep this retard design around .

If the game design total for solo , then why add group contents ? It feel like sweet candy with salt at core , seriously .

If they going to make solo MMORPGs from the start , never add forced group contents.

 

No trading (no bots lol) , no AH , no forced group . If they want to create solo (lol) MMORPGs.

 

Then how they disguised they game as MMORPGs to draw the crowd ?

Simple , the town are place where players see other ,

there are chat box for players to chat with other .

Players can make party at town

And when player join party , they become weaker so the contents become harder and more challenge . And the reward are same as solo playing.

They still Massively (at town and chat box ) multiplayer (optional) online (DRM lol) role-playing game

But build total for solo with multiplayer option.

 

No trading = no worry about bot , no worry about cheat , no more accounts hack .

Wonderful MMORPGs (lol) , so why keep (Forced) group contents when you build your MMORPG total for solo play ?

 

Yes! my question is

why keep (Forced) group contents when you build your MMORPG total for solo play ?

Seriously , who want sweet candy with salt at core ?

 

 

Not sure if a "solo mmorpg" exists but for the purpose of  this post we will assume there is such a thing.  The fact that you say some game has group content would automatically make that not a "solo mmorpg".  /end

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

5/25/14 7:08:27 PM#31

Even though it was said and then edited out by a mod ( for other reasons ) it still holds true. Forced grouping = more social games is a myth. The lack of social connection people suffer in modern mmos isn't from a lack of opportunity to group or even a lack of necessity. It comes from a lack of people who want to engage in it at all.

MMOs still have group content but still lack a social atmosphere. The groups are just a small number of people doing the same quest/dungeon that never speak unless they absolutely have to and most of the time when they do it's to call someone a name. Forcing those people into groups all the time, it's going to produce some magic solution and everyone will have a big party together.

If you want examples of what forced grouping in a modern mmo will really produce...log into world of tanks and see the way people talk to each other there. Is that really what you want your game communities to be like ?

If you want to be social in an mmo...go find the groups of people that play the game to be social. Put in the effort yourself and stop expecting the devs to hold your hands and lead you to it.

  issling

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/09/12
Posts: 128

I have my rose tinted glass's at a full shine!

5/25/14 7:47:42 PM#32

I think EQ1 was great for this, as a necro I could solo anything for the most part and it fit the lore in imo, that a necro was somewhat of a loner, or the druid could kit all day, or as a bard I could solo the island in the Oasis with those undead things and I mean all fifteen or how many there where, it did not matter. Even as I kited all them I would see a Giant then grab him and kit him, it did not matter how many. And I could watch a full group not be able to do it:)

Now that being said I could not go down in a dungeon and expect to kill anything by myself and I didn't expect I should. I would not have been first choice for a group. I had a blast out in the open world and left the grouping and dungeon crawls to those that wanted to do it.

The problem is there is no difference between class's anymore and everybody wants to be able to do the same thing, as a necro a warrior would not stand a chance against me, but could I lead a group, and keep them safe, no! But people want to play a necro and a warrior at the same time, and a healer, so who needs anybody anymore.

So in the old days you could role play and have a strong solo char and not care about some group, and still do stuff and have fun. And the key part nobody cared if you would crush them in pvp. Now every wants a fare chance and it has become boring:)

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 884

5/25/14 7:55:16 PM#33


Originally posted by DamonVile Even though it was said and then edited out by a mod ( for other reasons ) it still holds true. Forced grouping = more social games is a myth. The lack of social connection people suffer in modern mmos isn't from a lack of opportunity to group or even a lack of necessity. It comes from a lack of people who want to engage in it at all. MMOs still have group content but still lack a social atmosphere. The groups are just a small number of people doing the same quest/dungeon that never speak unless they absolutely have to and most of the time when they do it's to call someone a name. Forcing those people into groups all the time, it's going to produce some magic solution and everyone will have a big party together. If you want examples of what forced grouping in a modern mmo will really produce...log into world of tanks and see the way people talk to each other there. Is that really what you want your game communities to be like ? If you want to be social in an mmo...go find the groups of people that play the game to be social. Put in the effort yourself and stop expecting the devs to hold your hands and lead you to it.
See here group content is not and should not equal "being social". I do think though if group content and grouping is encouraged there is more chance for socialization but I think it has becomes less common with the mechanics used to "force" people into it.

Like much else when someone feels forced into something it is less conducive to a good experience or social interaction.

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  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 540

 
OP  5/25/14 9:04:12 PM#34
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by iixviiiix

then after 10 level solo , another dungeon force player to group lol .

what's so funny? Tell me so I can laugh too.

The joy when you discover the cycle of solo and forced group ...

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 322

5/25/14 9:22:03 PM#35

 


Originally posted by DamonVile
Even though it was said and then edited out by a mod ( for other reasons ) it still holds true. Forced grouping = more social games is a myth. The lack of social connection people suffer in modern mmos isn't from a lack of opportunity to group or even a lack of necessity. It comes from a lack of people who want to engage in it at all. MMOs still have group content but still lack a social atmosphere. The groups are just a small number of people doing the same quest/dungeon that never speak unless they absolutely have to and most of the time when they do it's to call someone a name. Forcing those people into groups all the time, it's going to produce some magic solution and everyone will have a big party together. If you want examples of what forced grouping in a modern mmo will really produce...log into world of tanks and see the way people talk to each other there. Is that really what you want your game communities to be like ? If you want to be social in an mmo...go find the groups of people that play the game to be social. Put in the effort yourself and stop expecting the devs to hold your hands and lead you to it.
I understand your sentiment, but I have to disagree.  The fact that, in older MMOs, soloing meant really slowing down your progression or completely halting it at higher levels forced people to be social and establish they could play well with others.  Being an incredibly awful and/or antisocial person meant you had a hard time finding groups to advance your character at best, or you were blacklisted by the most effective players on your server, at worst.

 

When you don't have to depend upon any other player for your own personal progression, you have no compelling reason to be friendly or "social" towards those other players.  Interdependence breeds a friendly atmosphere where players want you around to experience content and progress with them.

 

This article, written in 2011, explains it perfectly.

To quote a specific portion which is directly applicable:

 


Wolfshead said:

 

The fact is that MMO companies have long neglected to design the need for player interdependence into their game worlds. When players don’t need each other it breeds anti-social behavior and it results in the devaluation of other players. Players become nothing more than advanced NPCs.

For some reason, the masters of the MMO universe just assumed that the community — much like oxygen in the real world — would always be there. They were wrong.

Some people are trying to rewrite history of MMOs and asserting that requiring community as part of the design was some kind of accident. I do not agree. Community and socialization were always the entire point of MMORPGs back then.

 


 

Breed a game that requires interdependence between players and you breed a friendly, socially adept playerbase.

 

EDIT- Further evidence supporting this case is the fact that, in older MMOs, piecing together a good group was much, much harder and more time-consuming than in today's MMOs.  Yet the majority of the playerbase grouped on a regular basis, or whenever the opportunity presented itself, because it was by far the most effective way to experience content and progress efficiently.  In today's MMO, grouping has never been easier, and there's never been more players who avoid it like the plague.  You say the cause of this problem is antisocial and/or awful personalities.  I say that's that's simply a symptom of the problem caused by a shift in the genre development paradigm for the worse in the interest of simply moving as many boxes as possible on launch day.

  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 540

 
OP  5/25/14 9:39:28 PM#36
Originally posted by DamonVile

Even though it was said and then edited out by a mod ( for other reasons ) it still holds true. Forced grouping = more social games is a myth. The lack of social connection people suffer in modern mmos isn't from a lack of opportunity to group or even a lack of necessity. It comes from a lack of people who want to engage in it at all.

MMOs still have group content but still lack a social atmosphere. The groups are just a small number of people doing the same quest/dungeon that never speak unless they absolutely have to and most of the time when they do it's to call someone a name. Forcing those people into groups all the time, it's going to produce some magic solution and everyone will have a big party together.

If you want examples of what forced grouping in a modern mmo will really produce...log into world of tanks and see the way people talk to each other there. Is that really what you want your game communities to be like ?

If you want to be social in an mmo...go find the groups of people that play the game to be social. Put in the effort yourself and stop expecting the devs to hold your hands and lead you to it.

More like lack of common goal than opportunity to group or the necessity.

As some ready said , you can solo in old game , but people still willing to group because it faster way to progress (than solo) or because solo is boring .

Nowadays we mainly do quest hubs to progress and because of that there are no common goal between players. Everyone in they own quests .

Even if you are in same quest , grouping give less exp (from killing mobs)

 

Then there are difference between time of play and number of contents consumed .

In old game , because the natural of mobs grind , the party can have difference levels and still run well ,

But nowadays game , there are no place for difference .

Even in same level , if you ready do A,B,C quest then it impossible to have long time party (hours) with people wasn't do A,B,C quests but ready done D . E . F. G quests

 

ect...

 

So  you gain less from group with other than do it solo . Unless the contents forced you to group , you will never want to group.

No reason to group beside you feel the game boring . But even you feel so , other may not .

And the difference of contents consume make it impossible to group

So ... no willing to group anymore ... let forced (lol)

 

Basically , the design of nowadays MMORPGs make people prefer solo , and group are like punishment.

It all because the environment change how player playing.

And of course we cant ignore the fact that nowadays, a lots players (teens and young adults) have pretty bad personality.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

5/26/14 3:13:40 AM#37
Originally posted by MadFrenchie

Breed a game that requires interdependence between players and you breed a friendly, socially adept playerbase.

nah .. breed a game that requires interdependence between players and you breed drama, bad behavior and aggravation.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

5/26/14 4:11:56 AM#38
Originally posted by MadFrenchie

 


Originally posted by DamonVile
Even though it was said and then edited out by a mod ( for other reasons ) it still holds true. Forced grouping = more social games is a myth. The lack of social connection people suffer in modern mmos isn't from a lack of opportunity to group or even a lack of necessity. It comes from a lack of people who want to engage in it at all. MMOs still have group content but still lack a social atmosphere. The groups are just a small number of people doing the same quest/dungeon that never speak unless they absolutely have to and most of the time when they do it's to call someone a name. Forcing those people into groups all the time, it's going to produce some magic solution and everyone will have a big party together. If you want examples of what forced grouping in a modern mmo will really produce...log into world of tanks and see the way people talk to each other there. Is that really what you want your game communities to be like ? If you want to be social in an mmo...go find the groups of people that play the game to be social. Put in the effort yourself and stop expecting the devs to hold your hands and lead you to it.

I understand your sentiment, but I have to disagree.  The fact that, in older MMOs, soloing meant really slowing down your progression or completely halting it at higher levels forced people to be social and establish they could play well with others.  

EQ isn't all older MMOs. It isn't even typical of older MMOs. Most older MMOs didn't have that issue, partially because leveling wasn't the focus of many of them. The scenario you describe is almost exclusively an issue of EQ and the MMOs that patterned themselves after it, including WOW. 

We went from a diverse playfield of Furcadia, UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, AO, Second Life, Entropia, There, Puzzle Pirates, SWG, and EVE to a decade-long monoculture of EQ/WOW-style graphical dikuMUDs. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4751

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

5/26/14 4:17:36 AM#39
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MadFrenchie

Breed a game that requires interdependence between players and you breed a friendly, socially adept playerbase.

nah .. breed a game that requires interdependence between players and you breed drama, bad behavior and aggravation.

 

people put aside their differences when the goal is worth the effort to behave like human beings.

 

that's the long lost charm of MMOs.

  phumbaba

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 89

5/26/14 5:27:40 AM#40
Originally posted by Robokapp

people put aside their differences when the goal is worth the effort to behave like human beings.

 

that's the long lost charm of MMOs.

Yep. Even if the interaction at face level is premature and bad, if the mechanics allow it, there will be many forms of positive interaction and ways for players to immerse and commit themselves.

If you want to cater to all, you should consider separating the lines of progression more; if you solo to max lvl, you can't be forced to do only group content all of a sudden. A separate server for most of the stuff being group content or simply more difficult? A hardcore server? Lol it would be rushed by all the people crying for NERFs and rebalancing. And then there would be your typical hc-guilds raping the content in a flash and demanding more content for them to trample.

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