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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Limitted skills set

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24 posts found
  Lord.Bachus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8599

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

 
OP  5/15/14 12:00:16 PM#1

I left this game behind, the seccond i heared about their limited skillset.......... with only like 5 active skills on the bar.... which is far to minimalistic for me...  espescially if it is combined with CD´s as they announced...

 

Can anyone tell me, if this dessign aspect of this game has been changed?

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Wellspring

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/02/09
Posts: 105

5/15/14 12:05:49 PM#2

IIRC it was said to be 8 skills (4 weapon skills, 4 class skills). I could be remembering it wrong, but that's how I remember it from all the announcement interviews last year.

I don't mind having limited skills having to be set. It's like how EQ1 was with spell slots. You could only have 8 memorized at a time. EQ2 on the otherhand let you have every single ability you owned on hot bars, and that is not my preference.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

5/15/14 10:39:36 PM#3

Close to nothing has been released about combat since the initial reveal details, but...

Each class will have access to at least 12 abilities at one time. Each class will have 2 weapons with 4 skills each and they can be swapped during combat. Plus the 4 secondary skills/slots that can be mixed from other classes.

They also said there will be a combo system. No details though. Could be hit 1 1 1 and get a different result or 1 2 3 quickly and get another result, no idea. But essentially, 12 base abilities could equal quite a few more possibilities.

While not confirmed, I'd imagine they will have clickies/consumables of some sort as well. Items will have passive abilities (gliding boots) and I believe they've said active but I can't remember for sure.

GW2 classes have ~15-20 or so abilities each and it seems to work well. Even if 12 is too few, you have the ability to swap classes. 40 classes x 12 abilities = 480 abilities minimum. Each class will have 8 set abilities, but mixing the secondary 4 will also give quite a few options to enhance a class.

EQ had 8 abilities and was slow combat and still felt good (for me). MOBA's have even fewer abilities and again, they work well because you aren't stuck with a class/skills forever. Tired of playing Warrior, play a Tempest and get a different POV of a melee character.

Wildstar and ESO both went the limited route and seem fine.

I try to watch a WoW videos once in a while to see what is happening and all I can see is wow, someone took a dump on the screen in the shape of UI.

I can't wait for EQN's system, at least what they've announced so far. I like the idea of each class fitting into a role (offense/defense/support) yet having unique qualities and focus. Instead of one class that can do a little of everything all the time. Would much rather have fast combat that requires me to move and think constantly instead of just going down the line of macros/skills. Fewer abilities done well can have a lot more depth then a screen full of them.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3466

5/16/14 1:25:31 PM#4
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.
  aattss

Novice Member

Joined: 12/20/12
Posts: 40

5/17/14 7:46:26 PM#5
From my understanding, it's gonna be like a moba (with good ai as well), so no, 8 or so skills will be more than enough.
  Mozardd

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/14
Posts: 7

5/21/14 10:20:45 PM#6
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

Agree,

it's look like the Limited Abilities Set is a trends that many recent and upcoming RPG games are applying to it. You have to adapt to it OP, it quite a good system.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7246

5/21/14 10:30:46 PM#7
can't beat them change the game with qq and bring them down to your level! 3 skills ftw.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 830

5/21/14 10:35:30 PM#8
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

I feel this whole limiting of skill isn't a factor of them adding "depth" to each skill and more of the nature of wanting to mobafy  games to attract a certain target group.

I would much rather have games like DDO where you can have as many or as little skill bars on your screen as you want or feel you need.

 

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  Zegaloth

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/12/12
Posts: 47

5/21/14 10:58:45 PM#9
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

I feel this whole limiting of skill isn't a factor of them adding "depth" to each skill and more of the nature of wanting to mobafy  games to attract a certain target group.

I would much rather have games like DDO where you can have as many or as little skill bars on your screen as you want or feel you need.

 

Mobafy? D&D spell casters all had limited spells per day that they would have to prepare ahead of time, and that was back in the 1970's.

 

Limiting your skills in a meaningful way to me is a lot more fun.

  goozmania

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 118

5/21/14 11:07:59 PM#10
Originally posted by Wellspring

IIRC it was said to be 8 skills (4 weapon skills, 4 class skills). I could be remembering it wrong, but that's how I remember it from all the announcement interviews last year.

I don't mind having limited skills having to be set. It's like how EQ1 was with spell slots. You could only have 8 memorized at a time. EQ2 on the otherhand let you have every single ability you owned on hot bars, and that is not my preference.

For what it's worth, in EQ you had to have multiple hotbars, like any other game. At least 12 spells memorized (after just a few expansions) and dozens of abilities, potions, clickable items and necessary hotkeys.

 

A faaaaar cry from the simple and plain console style action game they are going for.

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

5/22/14 6:53:54 AM#11
Originally posted by goozmania
Originally posted by Wellspring

IIRC it was said to be 8 skills (4 weapon skills, 4 class skills). I could be remembering it wrong, but that's how I remember it from all the announcement interviews last year.

I don't mind having limited skills having to be set. It's like how EQ1 was with spell slots. You could only have 8 memorized at a time. EQ2 on the otherhand let you have every single ability you owned on hot bars, and that is not my preference.

For what it's worth, in EQ you had to have multiple hotbars, like any other game. At least 12 spells memorized (after just a few expansions) and dozens of abilities, potions, clickable items and necessary hotkeys.

A faaaaar cry from the simple and plain console style action game they are going for.

EQ1 was limited to 8 memorized spells when it was released, the number of hotbars didn't change anything to that.

Just like in EQNext the 8 skills is for weapons and class skills only, it's not for potions and other "clickables" that you might use.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 830

5/22/14 8:07:30 AM#12
Originally posted by Zegaloth
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

I feel this whole limiting of skill isn't a factor of them adding "depth" to each skill and more of the nature of wanting to mobafy  games to attract a certain target group.

I would much rather have games like DDO where you can have as many or as little skill bars on your screen as you want or feel you need.

 

Mobafy? D&D spell casters all had limited spells per day that they would have to prepare ahead of time, and that was back in the 1970's.

 

Limiting your skills in a meaningful way to me is a lot more fun.

In PNP sure but we are talking mmo here and I was thinking of DDO. This you can only have 5 or 6 skill/powers/spells total is total BS to me. Hell even then you had the spell point variant.

 

This is more about attraction a certain crowd and making the games accessible to console players.

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  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2393

5/22/14 8:27:26 AM#13
Oh yes I recall quite clearly how many spells you could put on the side gems in Everquest. 8 spells. I always was quite frustrated because playing a wizard I needed an evac for the group, invisibility, root, area aoe, PBAOE, DD spells ,gate. I always ended up leaving my gate out if I needed a snare or another dd. Then if someone came and asked for a port I would have to sit down open the spell book take off one spell put in that spell and my gate too after I bound myself to the room we were camping and hoping everyone does not die by the time I gate back. Somehow having to pick and choose then made it more interesting.

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  AmbrosiaAmor

Elite Member

Joined: 11/24/10
Posts: 830

5/22/14 2:12:37 PM#14

The last time they talked about skills sets was almost 9 months ago. It is still an 8 skill hotbar. I also found that weapon swapping was not available at the time. Nothing new has come out since then. I am hoping that they do make some addition/changes to the combat system. I honestly don't see this game being released this year. That should give them enough time to make changes to the number of skills or combat.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

5/22/14 2:48:24 PM#15

Here are two confirmations about swapping weapons during combat, one is talking about Landmark, but as they keep reminding us Landmark mechanics will have influence on EQN and the second is about EQN.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/05/13/latest-eq-next-round-table-response-covers-combat-in-landmark/

"Focusing on versatility, players will be able to switch between weapons during combat to access the various abilities."

http://www.eqnforum.com/threads/weapon-clarifiation-from-taliskerdev-darrin-mcpherson.1098/

Darrin McPherson ‏@TaliskerDev3m
@Murzerker great question. You can swap between them freely but you may not want to if you optimized around those weapon abilities.

I'm assuming Landmark's combat system will be more open then EQN's simply because there will only be one class and they'll want to get as much feedback/testing as possible for dialing down classes in EQN.

Similar to GW2, you'll have your standard 8 skills on screen, but can swap 4 for a different set of 4. Most likely a cooldown or some other factor that makes strategy important and when to swap or not at all. In GW2, there are builds that can function with 1 weapon, but adding in a second is usually a big help for most. I can see utilizing only one being popular if the 4 secondary skills and gear can be customized decently for specifics on one weapon. 

While 4-8 weapon locked skills seems limiting, I think with the addition of combos and gear effects, there will be plenty to do. Beauty of it is if you get bored with that particular set of 8, you can switch classes and try something else. Not a huge leap from retraining a skill tree or changing focus for a class. 

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3466

5/23/14 9:12:59 PM#16
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

I feel this whole limiting of skill isn't a factor of them adding "depth" to each skill and more of the nature of wanting to mobafy  games to attract a certain target group.

I would much rather have games like DDO where you can have as many or as little skill bars on your screen as you want or feel you need.

 

Sorry even EQ1 had many spells and only 1 spell bar with something like 8 spells you could memorize. If you have unlimited skills you can have access to and unlimited hot bars, where is the fun and style. This is not mobafy, its old school made new. In EQN you will have a tone of skills to pick from, more classes you unlock the more skills you can earn. What you can use at one time, kicking it old school. Pick your build and play.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 830

5/23/14 9:44:31 PM#17
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

I feel this whole limiting of skill isn't a factor of them adding "depth" to each skill and more of the nature of wanting to mobafy  games to attract a certain target group.

I would much rather have games like DDO where you can have as many or as little skill bars on your screen as you want or feel you need.

 

Sorry even EQ1 had many spells and only 1 spell bar with something like 8 spells you could memorize. If you have unlimited skills you can have access to and unlimited hot bars, where is the fun and style. This is not mobafy, its old school made new. In EQN you will have a tone of skills to pick from, more classes you unlock the more skills you can earn. What you can use at one time, kicking it old school. Pick your build and play.

Allow me to be more clear,  I hate the limited skill bar UI where you can only use so many skill bars. I like that as a wizard you can only use so many spells at once but have to swap them out depending on what your going to do, same for skills for other classes.

I dislike the limited skill bars we have in many games because it feels like they are limiting how many skill/items/potions  you can slot and have ready access to quickly.

I enjoy how like in DDO you can have many skill bars and have one bar for pots, one for different weapons, one for clickies with various timers etc etc

I am not speaking of one class being able to do it all, builds and choosing one or better yet making your own is great but these games like say Neverwinter are just boring to me after  awhile as it feels like I am doing the same thing pretty much with each class.

Dunno but 6 ~ 8 skill and a space maybe for HP and MP pot is boring.

I would also point out not everyone was stark raving mad for EQ1 I dunno why you bring that into the mix when I was comparing to DnD and DDO.

I just think this whole "lets limit the UI and how many bars and whatnot" is just to limit your access so it fits and crosses over better to consoles.

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  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

5/24/14 12:19:49 AM#18
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im sick of MMOs that give you skills that do just one thing and require you to have 4-6 hot bars to memorize. I find games that are scaling back on the number of skills and adding depth to the skills a move I love. Its like Wildstar, very small set of skills but you can add much depth to skills so they are something new when you are done with them. Same with ESO (hate the game) but they had a great skill system.

I feel this whole limiting of skill isn't a factor of them adding "depth" to each skill and more of the nature of wanting to mobafy  games to attract a certain target group.

I would much rather have games like DDO where you can have as many or as little skill bars on your screen as you want or feel you need.

Sorry even EQ1 had many spells and only 1 spell bar with something like 8 spells you could memorize. If you have unlimited skills you can have access to and unlimited hot bars, where is the fun and style. This is not mobafy, its old school made new. In EQN you will have a tone of skills to pick from, more classes you unlock the more skills you can earn. What you can use at one time, kicking it old school. Pick your build and play.

Allow me to be more clear,  I hate the limited skill bar UI where you can only use so many skill bars. I like that as a wizard you can only use so many spells at once but have to swap them out depending on what your going to do, same for skills for other classes.

Doesn't seem very clear, seems like opposite views on the subject. Dislike limited but then like it?

I dislike the limited skill bars we have in many games because it feels like they are limiting how many skill/items/potions  you can slot and have ready access to quickly.

I enjoy how like in DDO you can have many skill bars and have one bar for pots, one for different weapons, one for clickies with various timers etc etc

We have no idea what they are planning yet for the bars. Highly likely that there will be clickies and consumables, but have to wait and see.

I am not speaking of one class being able to do it all, builds and choosing one or better yet making your own is great but these games like say Neverwinter are just boring to me after  awhile as it feels like I am doing the same thing pretty much with each class.

Dunno but 6 ~ 8 skill and a space maybe for HP and MP pot is boring.

It's at least 8~12 so far and unlike most games, you can swap classes when you want. I agree, playing a Warrior forever with 8 skills on a bar and having to swap them out does get tedious. But instead of swapping out 1-2 skills, you can swap an entire different class, weapons, role, skills, etc.

If you find 40+ classes with who knows how many skills each, along with however many weapons/gear, etc as being boring, well, guess it is.

I would also point out not everyone was stark raving mad for EQ1 I dunno why you bring that into the mix when I was comparing to DnD and DDO.

I just think this whole "lets limit the UI and how many bars and whatnot" is just to limit your access so it fits and crosses over better to consoles.

Limited skill bar is not new. Sort of the point I'm assuming. Early EQ is looked at as the holy grail of mmorpgs to many around here apparently, which included 8 skills on a bar and was very tedious in swapping them out and just combat in general. Nothing like what we have today in most games. While I enjoyed it, much prefer a faster, more fluid type system.

You implying that them going back to this system is to make it accessible to MOBA or console fans might not be totally off base, but as we've seen with Wildstar, ESO, GW2 and other popular current games, the system does work and people do like it. None of those are MOBA/Console games (yet). While it is also going back to a simpler approach at the same time.

I think there are many factors as to why they are taking this approach. Action combat requires players to move around and spend more time on positioning, aiming, and basically paying attention to the action. While I'm sure there are people that can macro/bind 50 skills and be able to bounce around the screen while hitting them all blindly, most people can't. Which is why we have games like WoW where people just stare at the skill bar and health/threat bars all day.

They want players actually playing. Not staring and cooldowns and the UI. Much like a console fighter game. When playing Street Fighter you don't stare at your controller, you are watching the action and planning what to do next.

Again, looking at WoW, EQ2, and even EQ now a days, the majority of skills on the bar are not used constantly.

Remove the long duration buffs, teleports, fluff spells, skills that can be combined into fewer abilities, skills that enhance another and are useless alone, etc and you don't have that many. Yes I'm sure people can give examples where they "needed" 1000 skills for a fight, but for the majority of it, unless you are hitting a meatsack for an hour, you don't need them all.

We've yet to learn much about how they will handle buffs and the typical skill pool.

While I'd say most games average more in the 15-25 range, this again goes back to being stuck with one class forever.

Instead of a Warrior needing 50+ skills, you can break that down into multiple classes that have similar roles, but have uniqueness to them. Instead of being a Sword/Board Tank or DPS or whatever, you literally have a melee DPS class and a sword/shield class that specialize in that area and come with unique skills/items/stances/looks.

For me, as long as the options are there to do what I want, I'm good. If that means having to unlock multiple classes and swap them, I'm fine. I find being stuck with one class boring. Along with having unlimited options to do everything at once with that class. I like having to plan and experiment.

I look at it like tools. A toolbelt can only hold so many. Sure I can bring in every tool I own and have a truck load, but it is a hassle and wastes time. Much rather think ahead, narrow down what I'll need, and bring that along. If I see I'm missing key tools, I'll go back and swap a few out, but I'm not going to carry loads of them with me every step of the way.

Again, we don't know what is planned, until we do, I'm giving them my faith that it will turn out okay. Could be awesome or garbage, who knows. What I'm not doing is worrying about what has or hasn't worked in previous games. This is a new take on a fantasy mmorpg and with that comes brand new things and polishing what has come before.

  Drecapz

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/13
Posts: 26

5/29/14 12:38:09 PM#19
Originally posted by aattss
From my understanding, it's gonna be like a moba (with good ai as well), so no, 8 or so skills will be more than enough.

Can someone explain to me EQN gonna be like a MOBA (no disrespect to the OP) I'm not quite following, is it gonna be like leagues but a virtual world, I'm not sure I'm understand.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

5/29/14 6:33:34 PM#20
Originally posted by Drecapz
Originally posted by aattss
From my understanding, it's gonna be like a moba (with good ai as well), so no, 8 or so skills will be more than enough.

Can someone explain to me EQN gonna be like a MOBA (no disrespect to the OP) I'm not quite following, is it gonna be like leagues but a virtual world, I'm not sure I'm understand.

Someone can probably explain this better them me, most of my MOBA experience is with Smite.

From what I gather, they use MOBAs as a comparison as in the way combat happens. All players have to be engaged, moving around, using terrain, reacting and planning steps ahead, changing roles as needed, etc.

Instead of the traditional semi-static standing in place, going down the massive skill list, using a high chance to win strategy, slowly ticking crazy amount of HPs down. Not that this can't be fun, but it involves a lot of staring at health/threat bars and less engagement.

Classes will still have roles, but there will be flexibility. Just as in MOBAs. Champions/Gods/Heros might be made for a particular role, but there is still room to adapt. Classes will have a main theme/role but mixing skills from other classes will help them adapt.

Stats won't follow the same formula either. Instead of stacking STR/INT/STA forever in a vertical progression, gear will probably have more % based bonuses. +5% Attack Speed, -10% Debuff Time, +30% Cast Speed for 10 Sec or whatever. Things that can have a large impact on multiple classes/roles.

If I'm correct, it is less LOL in a open world, and more about the combat aspect that MOBAs have. Several other games are moving this way as well (GW2, Tera, Wildstar, ESO, etc). With the addition of hopefully next-gen AI, PVE might actually be entertaining and fresh for quite a while. Instead of falling into that same old grind that many of us have done for way too long.

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