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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Name a Sandbox MMO that has come out in the last 8 years that doesn't have FFA PvP

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114 posts found
  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 5:03:47 PM#41
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  DocBrody

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1392

5/22/14 5:05:43 PM#42
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Quesa
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I feel sorry for anyone who is so limited in their thinking that they actually belIeve that any mmo without ffapvp is a theme park.

So incredibly limited thinking. It's rather sad.

Feast your eyes on the new generation.

If anything, I think the mentality that sandboxes must include FFA PvP is part of an older generation of thinking. 

or maybe the developer mentality that every MMO needs some carebear catering safemode to be successful, is part of an older generation of thinking?

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 5:08:19 PM#43
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Quesa
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I feel sorry for anyone who is so limited in their thinking that they actually belIeve that any mmo without ffapvp is a theme park.

So incredibly limited thinking. It's rather sad.

Feast your eyes on the new generation.

If anything, I think the mentality that sandboxes must include FFA PvP is part of an older generation of thinking. 

or maybe the developer mentality that every MMO needs some carebear catering safemode to be successful, is part of an older generation of thinking?

I don't see how they can be such fools, what with Darkfall's incredible player numbers.  Isn't it in the tens of millions by now?

 

 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

5/22/14 5:36:24 PM#44
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 5:45:36 PM#45
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

They can fill their boots and laugh all the way to ArcheAge, though.  And they might turn that one into a short-lived game (and I'm betting they will), but they're still getting it.  And nothing that compares to ArcheAge is coming out in the near future for sandbox PvE players.  

 

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little, cause...ships and gliders) but I am puzzled by it.  If there are more of us than there are of them, then we're doing something very wrong, or else why aren't we drowning in PVE sandboxes?

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  User Deleted
5/22/14 5:45:41 PM#46
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by asmkm22

I can't name a single MMO that has FFA PvP, ever.  Maybe UO?

Most have zones that prevent PvP, not to mention you can't attack your own faction.

Lineage 2

It has peace zones where you can't attack players (villages and such).  

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

5/22/14 5:50:39 PM#47
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Quesa
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I feel sorry for anyone who is so limited in their thinking that they actually belIeve that any mmo without ffapvp is a theme park.

So incredibly limited thinking. It's rather sad.

Feast your eyes on the new generation.

If anything, I think the mentality that sandboxes must include FFA PvP is part of an older generation of thinking. 

or maybe the developer mentality that every MMO needs some carebear catering safemode to be successful, is part of an older generation of thinking?

If you are indeed 39 and feel like a sandbox must include FFA PvP in order to be labeled a sandbox, then you only help to support what I was saying. UO, one of the first graphical MMORPGs with FFA PvP (and a great one IMO), came out when you were in your mid 20s.

 

But I mostly agree with Quesa about the close minded nature of youth. The difference is that I wouldn't call it generational but instead call it a function of youth. Every generation deals with the arrogance of youth.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

5/22/14 6:03:37 PM#48
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

They can fill their boots and laugh all the way to ArcheAge, though.  And they might turn that one into a short-lived game (and I'm betting they will), but they're still getting it.  And nothing that compares to ArcheAge is coming out in the near future for sandbox PvE players.  

 

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little, cause...ships and gliders) but I am puzzled by it.  If there are more of us than there are of them, then we're doing something very wrong, or else why aren't we drowning in PVE sandboxes?

AA isn't ffa it has safe zones. We're not drowning in them because sandbox has always been a knee jerk reaction to I don't like wow clones. I'd be willing to bet if you dropped most mmo players into a sandbox they wouldn't know what to do first and wouldn't have fun for very long.

It's easy to say I don't like wow so I want a sandbox but until you've actually played one how do you really know you're the type that can go out every day with no yellow brick road to follow. They sound great on paper but all sandbox games have failed by todays standards and had to add theme park content to them.  ( by that I mean no 100 mil game would turn a profit from the numbers they have playing )

So we are getting sandbox features in upcoming mmos but even devs seem gun shy of a true open world sandbox...and for good reason.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 6:11:05 PM#49
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

They can fill their boots and laugh all the way to ArcheAge, though.  And they might turn that one into a short-lived game (and I'm betting they will), but they're still getting it.  And nothing that compares to ArcheAge is coming out in the near future for sandbox PvE players.  

 

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little, cause...ships and gliders) but I am puzzled by it.  If there are more of us than there are of them, then we're doing something very wrong, or else why aren't we drowning in PVE sandboxes?

AA isn't ffa it has safe zones. We're not drowning in them because sandbox has always been a knee jerk reaction to I don't like wow clones. I'd be willing to bet if you dropped most mmo players into a sandbox they wouldn't know what to do first and wouldn't have fun for very long.

It's easy to say I don't like wow so I want a sandbox but until you've actually played one how do you really know you're the type that can go out every day with no yellow brick road to follow. They sound great on paper but all sandbox games have failed by todays standards and had to add theme park content to them.  ( by that I mean no 100 mil game would turn a profit from the numbers they have playing )

So we are getting sandbox features in upcoming mmos but even devs seem gun shy of a true open world sandbox...and for good reason.

AA doesn't seem conducive to actually enjoying the game while %100 avoiding gankers, therefore, by my definition, it is ffa.

 

I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.  I'm not arguing sandbox is less popular than themepark (speaking of nitpicking, AA is really a hybrid I guess) what I'm saying is, somehow a tiny percentage of gamers who PvP have gotten far more of what they want from sandbox creating devs than the PVE sandbox players, even though presumably more of us would play a sandbox if we didn't have to deal with gankers to do it.

 

Or perhaps less of us would than I think.  I know I would, because I've played Xsyon, playing Everquest Landmark now, and wishing I could play AA (but not going to deal with gankers in order to do it).

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

5/22/14 6:21:57 PM#50
Originally posted by Madimorga
 

 

I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.  I'm not arguing sandbox is less popular than themepark (speaking of nitpicking, AA is really a hybrid I guess) what I'm saying is, somehow a tiny percentage of gamers who PvP have gotten far more of what they want from sandbox creating devs than the PVE sandbox players, even though presumably more of us would play a sandbox if we didn't have to deal with gankers to do it.

 

Or perhaps less of us would than I think.  I know I would, because I've played Xsyon, playing Everquest Landmark now, and wishing I could play AA (but not going to deal with gankers in order to do it).

Ah I never said A tiny % pvp. I said a tiny % want ffa pvp. Something like 80% of mmo gamers want pvp in their mmos, they just want it on their terms ( flagging, arena battlegrounds etc ) Those games have always had the, look how successful wow is to contend with though. So we got a lot of hard core themeparks. And when you look at the examples of sandboxes before it's not all that surprising they ran far away from them drooling after wow.

Things are changing there. Lots of games are trying to add more sandbox features to a frame work of themepark gaming. They're calling them sandparks. EQN ...from what little we know of it is trying for this. Wildstar said it was going to do it but... I don't really see it.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 6:29:08 PM#51
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
 

 

I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.  I'm not arguing sandbox is less popular than themepark (speaking of nitpicking, AA is really a hybrid I guess) what I'm saying is, somehow a tiny percentage of gamers who PvP have gotten far more of what they want from sandbox creating devs than the PVE sandbox players, even though presumably more of us would play a sandbox if we didn't have to deal with gankers to do it.

 

Or perhaps less of us would than I think.  I know I would, because I've played Xsyon, playing Everquest Landmark now, and wishing I could play AA (but not going to deal with gankers in order to do it).

Ah I never said A tiny % pvp. I said a tiny % want ffa pvp. Something like 80% of mmo gamers want pvp in their mmos, they just want it on their terms ( flagging, arena battlegrounds etc ) Those games have always had the, look how successful wow is to contend with though. So we got a lot of hard core themeparks. And when you look at the examples of sandboxes before it's not all that surprising they ran far away from them drooling after wow.

Things are changing there. Lots of games are trying to add more sandbox features to a frame work of themepark gaming. They're calling them sandparks. EQN ...from what little we know of it is trying for this. Wildstar said it was going to do it but... I don't really see it.

Lots of games are starting to add some features, and Everquest Landmark is shaping up nicely, but we've had to wait too long already.  

 

And I did understand what you meant.  Or I think I did: The kind of PvP that you can't entirely avoid in order to play the game in an enjoyable way even if you really, really want to avoid it.  So even if safe areas exist, the game is designed such that it will drive you into a PvP area sooner or later.  Or you'll quit due to the limitations of the safe zone.  

 

Eve is a bit of a different beast, since some people not only don't leave hi-sec, they don't even undock, making them %100 safe.  But I couldn't get into that.

 

 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1648

5/22/14 6:30:49 PM#52
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

They can fill their boots and laugh all the way to ArcheAge, though.  And they might turn that one into a short-lived game (and I'm betting they will), but they're still getting it.  And nothing that compares to ArcheAge is coming out in the near future for sandbox PvE players.  

 

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little, cause...ships and gliders) but I am puzzled by it.  If there are more of us than there are of them, then we're doing something very wrong, or else why aren't we drowning in PVE sandboxes?

AA isn't ffa it has safe zones. We're not drowning in them because sandbox has always been a knee jerk reaction to I don't like wow clones. I'd be willing to bet if you dropped most mmo players into a sandbox they wouldn't know what to do first and wouldn't have fun for very long.

It's easy to say I don't like wow so I want a sandbox but until you've actually played one how do you really know you're the type that can go out every day with no yellow brick road to follow. They sound great on paper but all sandbox games have failed by todays standards and had to add theme park content to them.  ( by that I mean no 100 mil game would turn a profit from the numbers they have playing )

So we are getting sandbox features in upcoming mmos but even devs seem gun shy of a true open world sandbox...and for good reason.

AA doesn't seem conducive to actually enjoying the game while %100 avoiding gankers, therefore, by my definition, it is ffa.

 

I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.  I'm not arguing sandbox is less popular than themepark (speaking of nitpicking, AA is really a hybrid I guess) what I'm saying is, somehow a tiny percentage of gamers who PvP have gotten far more of what they want from sandbox creating devs than the PVE sandbox players, even though presumably more of us would play a sandbox if we didn't have to deal with gankers to do it.

 

Or perhaps less of us would than I think.  I know I would, because I've played Xsyon, playing Everquest Landmark now, and wishing I could play AA (but not going to deal with gankers in order to do it).

What he's saying is that even though people *claim* to want sandboxes, taking away any of the standard stuff makes people have heart attacks.

I can't count how many people playing ESO would whine in chat because they "ran out of quests" and ended up 5 levels below the next zone. If you don't hold their hand and tell them to go to this quest hub and do these then move on, they fall apart.

Same thing with the AH, no one wants to trade anymore, they just complain that they can't have an AH. Same thing with mini-map, dungeon finder, etc, etc. All the while, they simultaneously complained that it wasn't like Skyrim.

It seems to me, that people are A-Okay with the idea of a sandbox, as long as they can be walked through everything and can skip anything tedious, arduous or otherwise not immediately accessible. And that's why you don't get PvE Sandboxes, because people only want it in theory.

As for all the PvP "sandboxes" I don't see any game out there being a sandbox. What I see are battlegrounds where instead of capture the flag, you're playing capture the resources. There's no substance to any of them, nothing to do outside of gather mats and fight over who gets to gather mats. That sounds less like a sandbox and more like a themepark that has just one ride.

And that's why WoW is still popular. It may be a themepark, but they have many many rides to choose from. I think what would be successful as a "PvE Sandbox" would be WoW without levels and lateral character development. Lots of things to do, but no need to do anything in any particular order. But the moment you introduce vertical progression (leveling) people need their hands held.

 

On an aside, one reason PvP Sandboxes don't draw a large crowd is because not all PvPers are as good as other PvPers and they don't want to be at the bottom of the food chain in a PvP game. It's one of the main reasons having fodder (aka PvE'ers) in OWPvP is so that the lesser skilled PvPers can feel good about themselves because they always have someone they can pwn.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1541

5/22/14 6:31:59 PM#53
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

They can fill their boots and laugh all the way to ArcheAge, though.  And they might turn that one into a short-lived game (and I'm betting they will), but they're still getting it.  And nothing that compares to ArcheAge is coming out in the near future for sandbox PvE players.  

 

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little, cause...ships and gliders) but I am puzzled by it.  If there are more of us than there are of them, then we're doing something very wrong, or else why aren't we drowning in PVE sandboxes?

AA isn't ffa it has safe zones. We're not drowning in them because sandbox has always been a knee jerk reaction to I don't like wow clones. I'd be willing to bet if you dropped most mmo players into a sandbox they wouldn't know what to do first and wouldn't have fun for very long.

It's easy to say I don't like wow so I want a sandbox but until you've actually played one how do you really know you're the type that can go out every day with no yellow brick road to follow. They sound great on paper but all sandbox games have failed by todays standards and had to add theme park content to them.  ( by that I mean no 100 mil game would turn a profit from the numbers they have playing )

So we are getting sandbox features in upcoming mmos but even devs seem gun shy of a true open world sandbox...and for good reason.

AA doesn't seem conducive to actually enjoying the game while %100 avoiding gankers, therefore, by my definition, it is ffa.

 

I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.  I'm not arguing sandbox is less popular than themepark (speaking of nitpicking, AA is really a hybrid I guess) what I'm saying is, somehow a tiny percentage of gamers who PvP have gotten far more of what they want from sandbox creating devs than the PVE sandbox players, even though presumably more of us would play a sandbox if we didn't have to deal with gankers to do it.

 

Or perhaps less of us would than I think.  I know I would, because I've played Xsyon, playing Everquest Landmark now, and wishing I could play AA (but not going to deal with gankers in order to do it).

I'd actually would be pretty impressed if someone were able to accumulate mass wealth while avoiding pvp 100% of the time, since that would seem to be the harder thing to do within the game.

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 6:39:39 PM#54
Originally posted by Rusque
 

What he's saying is that even though people *claim* to want sandboxes, taking away any of the standard stuff makes people have heart attacks.

I can't count how many people playing ESO would whine in chat because they "ran out of quests" and ended up 5 levels below the next zone. If you don't hold their hand and tell them to go to this quest hub and do these then move on, they fall apart.

Same thing with the AH, no one wants to trade anymore, they just complain that they can't have an AH. Same thing with mini-map, dungeon finder, etc, etc. All the while, they simultaneously complained that it wasn't like Skyrim.

It seems to me, that people are A-Okay with the idea of a sandbox, as long as they can be walked through everything and can skip anything tedious, arduous or otherwise not immediately accessible. And that's why you don't get PvE Sandboxes, because people only want it in theory.

As for all the PvP "sandboxes" I don't see any game out there being a sandbox. What I see are battlegrounds where instead of capture the flag, you're playing capture the resources. There's no substance to any of them, nothing to do outside of gather mats and fight over who gets to gather mats. That sounds less like a sandbox and more like a themepark that has just one ride.

And that's why WoW is still popular. It may be a themepark, but they have many many rides to choose from. I think what would be successful as a "PvE Sandbox" would be WoW without levels and lateral character development. Lots of things to do, but no need to do anything in any particular order. But the moment you introduce vertical progression (leveling) people need their hands held.

 

On an aside, one reason PvP Sandboxes don't draw a large crowd is because not all PvPers are as good as other PvPers and they don't want to be at the bottom of the food chain in a PvP game. It's one of the main reasons having fodder (aka PvE'ers) in OWPvP is so that the lesser skilled PvPers can feel good about themselves because they always have someone they can pwn.

Agree with your last point, which is why I despise gankers.  They're not  PvPers, they're just pests.

 

My first MMO was Anarchy Online, not a sandbox, but you could quest through taking missions if you wanted, you could grind mobs, grind bosses, do open world dungeons, or get completely lost for hours and be killed repeatedly by everything that crawled, rolled, and hopped (and I did, often). So 'themeparks' all seem too restrictive to me, too many quests, too few alternative means of progressing, worlds too small, pace too steady and carefully managed.  

 

Oh well.  At least Wildstar has housing.  But I'm still one of those players that really does want a sandbox, even when it requires me to get my head out of my hind end and decide for myself what I'm going to do next.

 

I'm passing on ArcheAge, which seems to be an otherwise really nice hybrid, in order to play a themepark, solely because I'm not going to waste another second of my precious time dealing with gankers.  The funny thing is, I will PvP.  I'd do trade runs into PvP areas, I'd merc for a guild doing siege stuff, I'm just not going to put up with being one-hit by some high level fools when I'm trying to skin a bunny rabbit.  And it's so frustrating that no finished, polished, AAA sandbox exists for me to play in.  Oh well.  Maybe I should see go see how Xsyon has progressed lately.

 

 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1990

5/22/14 6:44:24 PM#55
Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DamonVile
When you make up less than 5% of the market it doesnt really matter what you think on this subject. No one is going to cater to you anyway.

Are you saying only %5 of gamers want a sandbox at all?  You can't mean the PvPers, because they certainly get what they want when it comes to sandbox MMOs.  They have Darkfall, Mortal Online, and now ArcheAge.

 

So are you suggesting only %5 of sandbox players don't want to deal with PvP? I find it hard to believe, but it might be true.  Or maybe we just aren't loud enough.  We're certainly not as good at being loud as the PvP crowd.  I've seen them come and demand open world PvP or at least an open world PvP server on just about every new game I've played. 

Open world ffa pvp players make up less than 5% of all mmo gamers. If they want to sit on a forum and say " that isn't a sandbox" they can fill their boots. It wont stop a game from launching and call itself a sandbox and if we look at history...ignoring those 5% the game has a greater chance of being a success.

 

They can fill their boots and laugh all the way to ArcheAge, though.  And they might turn that one into a short-lived game (and I'm betting they will), but they're still getting it.  And nothing that compares to ArcheAge is coming out in the near future for sandbox PvE players.  

 

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little, cause...ships and gliders) but I am puzzled by it.  If there are more of us than there are of them, then we're doing something very wrong, or else why aren't we drowning in PVE sandboxes?

AA isn't ffa it has safe zones. We're not drowning in them because sandbox has always been a knee jerk reaction to I don't like wow clones. I'd be willing to bet if you dropped most mmo players into a sandbox they wouldn't know what to do first and wouldn't have fun for very long.

It's easy to say I don't like wow so I want a sandbox but until you've actually played one how do you really know you're the type that can go out every day with no yellow brick road to follow. They sound great on paper but all sandbox games have failed by todays standards and had to add theme park content to them.  ( by that I mean no 100 mil game would turn a profit from the numbers they have playing )

So we are getting sandbox features in upcoming mmos but even devs seem gun shy of a true open world sandbox...and for good reason.

AA doesn't seem conducive to actually enjoying the game while %100 avoiding gankers, therefore, by my definition, it is ffa.

 

I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.  I'm not arguing sandbox is less popular than themepark (speaking of nitpicking, AA is really a hybrid I guess) what I'm saying is, somehow a tiny percentage of gamers who PvP have gotten far more of what they want from sandbox creating devs than the PVE sandbox players, even though presumably more of us would play a sandbox if we didn't have to deal with gankers to do it.

 

Or perhaps less of us would than I think.  I know I would, because I've played Xsyon, playing Everquest Landmark now, and wishing I could play AA (but not going to deal with gankers in order to do it).

I'd actually would be pretty impressed if someone were able to accumulate mass wealth while avoiding pvp 100% of the time, since that would seem to be the harder thing to do within the game.

 

I'd be impressed (and intrigued) if someone could simply enjoy the game and do what they wanted to in it while avoiding all PvP.  Maybe one of the streamers should tackle this one.  

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Dagon13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/16/07
Posts: 167

5/22/14 6:49:55 PM#56
Originally posted by Mightyking

And yet the PvP croud seems to be fishing for the idea that sandboxes and PvP are synonyms. But yet there's nothing in sand that says go kill your neighbour.

It's not that the sand tells you to go kill your neighbor, it's where the sands gets stuck that makes you want to kill your neighbor.

  kakasaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/06
Posts: 1259

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

5/22/14 7:02:24 PM#57
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by BeansnBread
Originally posted by Quesa
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I feel sorry for anyone who is so limited in their thinking that they actually belIeve that any mmo without ffapvp is a theme park.

So incredibly limited thinking. It's rather sad.

Feast your eyes on the new generation.

If anything, I think the mentality that sandboxes must include FFA PvP is part of an older generation of thinking. 

or maybe the developer mentality that every MMO needs some carebear catering safemode to be successful, is part of an older generation of thinking?

I don't see how they can be such fools, what with Darkfall's incredible player numbers.  Isn't it in the tens of millions by now?

 

 

And don't forget Mortal Online. Another phenomenal hit when it comes to sandbox FFA PvP!!!

A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  Orious

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 332

5/22/14 7:16:52 PM#58

People are missing the entire point of a sandbox by labeling things.

 

A sandbox is just a game where the player makes all of their choices using tools created by devs. The sky is the limit in other words. A themepark has the character constrained to exactly what the devs want players to do. A sandbox allows players to do things devs never thought would happen...

 

PvP and PvE are just labels that mean nothing (arguably themepark and sandbox are also labels). If a player wants to fight someone else regardless if someone wants to fight them back, those choices are typically not allowed in a Themepark game. A sandbox allows that choice. The other person will have to choose to adequately protect themself (gear up/ find friends etc.) PRIOR to venturing or choose not to (run out, die repeatedly, quit the game because you think it's bad). There are always ways to prepare in these games. Always.

But you can have a game focused around dev created tools for players to experiment with and not include fighting other players. The problem with this is that the freedom, realism, immersion, illusion of freedom is immediately interrupted. When this happens, although it may support the "definition" of a sandbox...it's still limited. The original MMOs felt more like "unlimited" sandboxes (UO/AC/L1 etc). The point of the genre STARTED with freedom.

The basic dev created tools should support:

-build and craft anything anywhere...

-Fight/Save/Protect anything (players and monsters shouldn't matter...it's all part of the world and bound by the same rules).

-The trick is to make things fun for as many people as possible and limiting the sandbox as little as possible.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/22/14 7:25:04 PM#59
Originally posted by DocBrody

Second Life is a chatroom, not a sandbox MMO.

 

SWG became a themepark with the NGE, with some sandbox remains in its dead rotting corpse.

Everyone knows. Before, there were player bounty missions and Jedi perma death and tons of professions.

Perfect example how to ruin a sandbox and turning it into a joke WoWclone.

 

A Tale in the Desert has NO COMBAT.

AT ALL.

 

just give up already.

          ^--- This is what I was referring to in my earlier post. If the game doesn't have PVP, there is a select group of people that come out of the woodwork just to tear it down with their absurd criteria.

  bentrim

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 71

5/22/14 7:43:40 PM#60


Considering less than 10% of all MMO players, want PVP in any form in their games, its not hard to figure out why there is no longevity in ANY of the recent trash MMO devs have thrown out there in the last 12+ years. Another example of PC in business. Trying to please 1 person while pissing-off 50. I hope I have not offended anyone while writing this.......WAIT...YES I DO!! PIZZ OFF LOSER!

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