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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMOs should skip the leveling and start at end game

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78 posts found
  aattss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/20/12
Posts: 37

5/17/14 4:39:41 PM#41
I've always wanted to point out how if tons of people are spending lots of time grinding, then one can argue that the game successfully implements grinding. That's why MMORPGs with grinding still have grinding. It's like sort of like how some people argue that fast food is unhealthy, but fast-food isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
  Mivi

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 39

5/17/14 5:30:44 PM#42

lazy op should play moba =_=

  jigo86

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 53

5/17/14 5:36:51 PM#43
mmos shouls start placing the "end game" right into the middel or even the start no eq lvl xx anymore so u have to max ur charr first see it as part of the game to finish the last 20 lvls by having fun and earning some sweet eq 
  g0m0rrah

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 208

5/17/14 5:39:08 PM#44
Originally posted by Mivi

lazy op should play moba =_=

  Lazy has nothing to do with it.  For example, I played guild wars a lot and my favorite feature was to create a max level character strictly for PvP.  I would have hours of fun creating and testing new builds.

  The problem is that " fun ' is subjective.  The more types of " fun ' that you cater to the more people will play.  I know that there are specific types of fun that are opposed to each other.  PvP and PvP can be a good example of opposing methods of play.  Some people just do not like PvP and thats why PvP servers exist.

  Now to your post.  It takes a special kind of person to inhibit others in their search for entertainment simply because you do not find it fun.

  Cougan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/08
Posts: 339

5/17/14 5:44:23 PM#45

I feel like MMOs have always been missing one major thing as an RPG fan - memorable characters.

 

People can replay single player RPGs because they love the story, characters and amazing scenes that make your jaw drop. If they could get that right in a MMO the path to the endgame would be hell of a lot more fun for me and something I might want to repeat.

 

Never seen this done right in a MMO. Give me reoccuring characters whose names I actually remember, with some badass scenes to watch or at least something not so generic.

 

 

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3133

5/17/14 5:45:12 PM#46
The problem here is that people are referring to mmo, but you can't apply a set of base rules to a mmo - mmo nearly describes the number of players. What we do have are mobos, mmorpg, fps mmo, and lobby base mmo - and it is the last that describes a game that really needs no questing or levelling xp. Questing is part of the RPG world.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  mbd1968

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/21/07
Posts: 1908

5/17/14 5:57:48 PM#47
Originally posted by plasticface

Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

No, end game is boring - it's the same old grind (dungeon or pvp) to get shinny new gear, then there's an update that gives you 'better' shinny new gear then an expansion and your shinny old gear is worthless and you start again.

It should be about the journey and not about levels. It should be about progressing and developing your character and not about shinny new gear.

  Mavolence

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 231

5/17/14 6:02:10 PM#48
OP, i really understand where you're coming from but I prefer an entirely different approach. For one i really truly enjoy the journey not the destination and the entire idea of  "endgame" is the problem to begin with in my pesonal preferred playstyle with mmorpgs. I'd rather have not be spoon fed linear scripted released content in increments like a starved child waiting for the next taste. I don't want  "endgame" at all. I enjoy levling,working my characters and progression and prefer horizontal progression as much as vertical progression to keep it intresting or the ability to swap abilities and skills and use  different armor/weapons rather than re roll new characters and level them in a linear quest hub. This is why i do prefer the sandbox titles like EVE/SWG/UO(and why i still play all 3 to this day over all these new titles) over a game like Wildstar in your post.
  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3133

5/17/14 6:07:41 PM#49
Mmorg with no Silly learner quests and a huge levelling process in a massive world with a great story and end game - sounds amazing to me.

Mmo (note not rpg). Focused on creating amazing group gameplay and quick access with a great reward system, questing is not part of it.

Both sound good as seperate games.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  Rayshe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

5/17/14 6:20:55 PM#50

Doing this would turn the MMO into a Lobby game. Think about it. If all there is to do is end game content, all your doing is running the same things over again in raids of people. The only difference is that you can run around i the lobby before joining a Raid or PVP match.

 

TL:DR Bad Idea.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4662

5/17/14 6:23:44 PM#51
Originally posted by plasticface

Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

***snip for length***

Personally I agree.

I'd like to see MMOs do away with levels, or adopt a progression system more similar to GW1. A very brief lvl up period, which constitutes the tutorial. Instead of having the game focused around it.

However, I know that most players wouldn't agree. The majority of us, whether we want to admit it or not, are stuck in our ways. We are used to, and hooked on the current skinner-box status quo. This is based off of levels, and RNG. Baiting people into chasing more and more rewards. It simulates the feeling of fun, and people love it for that. As a result, it's going to be a while before we see a meaningful departure from that type of design. It's just too engrained in human nature.

One can still hope, though, I suppose.

  PiratePete

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/07
Posts: 98

5/17/14 6:25:26 PM#52

The only good endgame I could see is a system of player made quests and events happening. Get a political system in place, if the leaders become corrupt tyrants on the nation you can choose to rebel, or profit off the suffering of others. When you have player made events/choices endgame would persist for a long time because the world would continuously change. MMOs however are afraid of having a changing world because they need to box things in so tightly so that it all fits together. 

 

Also if you make combat skill based instead of a behind the curtains roll of the dice it would make gameplay a hell of a lot more enjoyable than the stale auto aimed fireballs/arrows/sword swings/etc. But I think we're not quite at that stage in gaming yet where mount and blade style combat could be thrown into an mmo. 

  PiratePete

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/07
Posts: 98

5/17/14 6:28:32 PM#53
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by plasticface

Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

***snip for length***

Personally I agree.

I'd like to see MMOs do away with levels, or adopt a progression system more similar to GW1. A very brief lvl up period, which constitutes the tutorial. Instead of having the game focused around it.

However, I know that most players wouldn't agree. The majority of us, whether we want to admit it or not, are stuck in our ways. We are used to, and hooked on the current skinner-box status quo. This is based off of levels, and RNG. Baiting people into chasing more and more rewards. It simulates the feeling of fun, and people love it for that. As a result, it's going to be a while before we see a meaningful departure from that type of design. It's just too engrained in human nature.

One can still hope, though, I suppose.

We need better AI really before we can work it this way. Low level cap is fine, but then you have to find a way to make the content challenging when new stuff comes out. Can't just add levels because well... that would be basing the game around levels, and throw everything prior for a loop. 

 

But if we had sophisticated ai where fighting a group of five enemies is akin to a coordinated team then we could have content get harder and harder whilst remaining the same level. But then at that point it will be a "level" system based on competency levels instead of statistical levels. 

  Roguewiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 495

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

5/17/14 6:32:15 PM#54
No no no.  End-game is worthless.  I like the advancement of my character.

I be Raq, destroyer of game balance!
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Everquest, Hearthstone, League of Legends
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Archeage

Trying to beat Dark Souls without using magic is like having a naked hot blond give you a root canal every day; painful and enjoyable at the same time.

  plasticface

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/14
Posts: 13

 
OP  5/17/14 6:35:05 PM#55
Originally posted by Czelaw
MMO,s are not for you. you proly should just stick to kiddie games like CoD or BF4 ....mmo's are just to much work I guess. Ive yet to understand such mind sets I guess it's the insta I want it now attitude of today no one wants to earn anything any more.

 

LOL What are you earning? Pointless +1 to a level. What exactly is not kiddie bout leveling. A child can do. A bot can do it.

I put 15+ years into UO, Played WOW to multiple lvl 90s since WOTLK, played Gw2 and Gw1 ot max level and other games like Diablo 3 and POE.

I can do it but WHY?

Oh no people want instant rewards and gratification....

Uhhh no.

 

Not asking for end game LOOT AND REWARDS.

ASKING FOR INSTANT FUN WHICH IS WHAT WE PAY FOR. NOT MINDLESS GRIND FOR LEVELS FOR WEEKS OR DAYS WHICH IS THE SAME CRAP SINCE EQ1. So take your "kiddie" argument out of here.

 

  wutae

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/03
Posts: 69

5/17/14 6:38:00 PM#56
Originally posted by plasticface

Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

 

I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

 

So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

I have to admit that i didnt read the replies, but there is already a game that is planned to do that, and it's Camelot Unchained.

The tip for
The win is
cooperation.

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2685

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

5/17/14 6:40:12 PM#57
Endgame in the form of raids is the bane of mmorpgs. It's reserved for people who lack creativity, focus and mental fortitude to actually thrive in the game world rather than occupy space until the next spoonful is ready. The epitome of spoon fed mmorpg players. No worries though, you too can break the cycle. I did.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  plasticface

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/14
Posts: 13

 
OP  5/17/14 6:43:06 PM#58
Originally posted by mbd1968
Originally posted by plasticface

Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

No, end game is boring - it's the same old grind (dungeon or pvp) to get shinny new gear, then there's an update that gives you 'better' shinny new gear then an expansion and your shinny old gear is worthless and you start again.

It should be about the journey and not about levels. It should be about progressing and developing your character and not about shinny new gear.

What exactly is progressing? its a just new number on your screen, a fresh reset on the exp bar and if you are lucky +1 to a talent nowadays since stats are AUTO.

Then the mobs.....are THE SAME MOBS just more HP. No learning curve or real difficulty increase. Nothing is progressing or developing in these games. Thats mostly for single player RPG with story people care about.

I played the Journey, the same journey over and over and over for years now in countless MMO and its tiring. So until an entire new immersive questing/leveling experience is developed its just going to be the same crap.

For now. With MMOs in their current state End game and gear progress is all that matters. And everything I posted in the first topic...raids, group dungeons, pvp, crafting, open world pvp etc is the fun stuff. 

 

 

  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 509

5/17/14 6:49:04 PM#59

Go talk to X !

Go back to Y !

Press F on X amount of Y !

How could you NOT enjoy leveling in MMORPGs ?

I do not mind a leveling process, but when playing progress quest is more entertaining than the leveling process ... what is the point?

Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 509

5/17/14 6:50:29 PM#60
Originally posted by aesperus

Personally I agree.

I'd like to see MMOs do away with levels, or adopt a progression system more similar to GW1. A very brief lvl up period, which constitutes the tutorial. Instead of having the game focused around it.

However, I know that most players wouldn't agree. The majority of us, whether we want to admit it or not, are stuck in our ways. We are used to, and hooked on the current skinner-box status quo. This is based off of levels, and RNG. Baiting people into chasing more and more rewards. It simulates the feeling of fun, and people love it for that. As a result, it's going to be a while before we see a meaningful departure from that type of design. It's just too engrained in human nature.

One can still hope, though, I suppose.

So much THIS.

Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

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