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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] World of Warcraft: The Future of Raiding? A Place for Everyone

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46 posts found
  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11727

5/15/14 11:37:16 AM#21
Originally posted by PAL-18

and number 1.Anarchy Online : Camelot castle 100+ players.

Most awesome raid in the universe. (because,see PvP flags ,its also open PvP raid  instance)

in 2002, EQs Planes of Power supported a raid size of 72

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

the raid size decreased later

http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/07/23/everquest-slashing-raid-size-in-new-expansion/

 

  utvetteguy

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 6

5/15/14 11:39:52 AM#22
I'm really looking forward to WoD and having a great time getting back into raiding.
  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

5/15/14 11:48:25 AM#23
The future of raiding is one group content, because no one I know wants to spend the time it takes to get 20 people together to do something and then deal with "afk baby crying" for four hours while you try to progress. WoW hasn't lost half of it's subscribers by innovating and moving away from raiding like all the newer games have. It's why the game is stagnant at max level these days.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Grakulen

Staff Writer

Joined: 3/07/12
Posts: 440

5/15/14 12:58:54 PM#24
Originally posted by DaGaffer

The linked article on me talking WildStar from 2013 is fine, but check out yesterday's raid update;  it's seriously the best we have ever done:

Holy snikeys

^^^ Shill ;)

  redgang1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/14
Posts: 36

5/15/14 1:23:33 PM#25
I still remember the first time I tried to take my Everquest dial-up into a WoW raid. Something would happen once every 30seconds on my screen.....lol
  MurlockDance

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1225

5/15/14 1:35:02 PM#26
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by PAL-18

and number 1.Anarchy Online : Camelot castle 100+ players.

Most awesome raid in the universe. (because,see PvP flags ,its also open PvP raid  instance)

in 2002, EQs Planes of Power supported a raid size of 72

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

the raid size decreased later

http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/07/23/everquest-slashing-raid-size-in-new-expansion/

 

Hee hee, I remember the AO Camelot castle raid. I was on it once and we got pummeled. Did a few other raids in AO as well, such as killing the Omni tank bosses. AI brought in smaller "raids"... did a few of those too with my organization.

I am surprised no one mentioned DAoC though as being a game with the need for large raids once ToA was released. It is what turned me off of raiding for a very long time.

But then the problems with raiding with large numbers of people are at the root of any sort of large-scale MMORPG gaming, not just raids. Just look at RvR for example. It takes lots of logistics, time, and dealing with a lot of frustration, more than I am prepared to feel when I am engaging in a passtime that is supposed to provide me some escape from reality for a little while.

I sort of wish that game companies would shy away from raids and add really, really challenging group-based content instead and if they are story-based games, more stories for max level people. Just because you are at the end of the road as far as levels go should not mean that you are at the end of the story.

 

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

5/15/14 1:42:33 PM#27
Originally posted by Ludwik

While I have not experienced WoW's LFR, I will say that Rift's summoned raids and GW2's open world bosses are not friendly enough. No one will help do a summoned raid in Rift unless they need something so if you're short a few people, tough luck. Meanwhile in GW2, I have 50 attempts on Teq and Wurm having never succeeded even once.

For a genre that has moved in the direction if convenience, its certainly made playing with your friends as inconvenient as possible.

I don't know about Rift, but I know that when people complained in GW2 that world bosses were not hard enough, ANet made them harder and now I see people complaining.  Otherwise, Tequatl is not that hard to kill now that the Megaservers are up.  He's not easy either.  Have you tried since the patch?

  DaGaffer

Carbine Studios

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 62

5/15/14 1:44:51 PM#28
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by DaGaffer

The linked article on me talking WildStar from 2013 is fine, but check out yesterday's raid update;  it's seriously the best we have ever done:

Holy snikeys

^^^ Shill ;)

 

Freely admitted :) 

(er I don't think I have flair on:  I'm Carbine president, totally biased.)

Jeremy Gaffney
Executive Producer, Carbine Studios (Wildstar Online)

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 2012

5/15/14 2:10:45 PM#29
If I've learned anything about what sucks the fun out of MMOs, an over-emphasis on efficiency by players is #1.  The number crunching, the aforementioned refusal to bring people who aren't over-geared, and the response of devs to this drive which prevents those who are playing a different kind of game from participating completely turned me off raiding.  WoW wants to make changes, but for me it's too late.  I've moved on.  Had I been able to raid in a way I would have enjoyed when I was playing WoW, I would have.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  darkedone02

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/06
Posts: 547

5/15/14 3:36:31 PM#30

I know in the future, raiding in a mmo using VR technology and an "out of body" VR becoming a thing in the future, raiding will become hard, hard like reality. Controls in VR going to change everything in the game, as we no longer react with keyboard and mouse, those things will no longer exist, instead we react by movement. When we block, we really have to catch the blow with shield, staff, or sword. If you have to dodge, you really have to step out of the blow... if you really want to duel wield in the game, you really need to learn how to hold and use a weapon on each hand, you will probably be taking almost medieval military lesson on how to wield a blade, how to use magic, and how to better yourself... you will have an alternative life experience like you was born in a totally different planet and face a different reality... That's the future that I see in raiding in mmo's is that it's coming so close to reality, that we all going to feel it and we are all in for a surprise... watch how hard it really is to take down deathwing himself in a VR game.

  Amphib_Ian

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 171

Fools fear nothing yet claim to know everything. Bravery is knowing everything yet fearing nothing.

5/15/14 3:37:16 PM#31
I'm in complete agreement with the exclusionary statements in this article. In WoW on my huntard i was told if i did not bring (at the time) VERY SPECIFIC pets with me, with VERY SPECIFIC pet talents, and have my toon's talents PERFECTLY MIRROR the fotom for my class then i was NOT ALLOWED TO RAID.

when my OWN guild told me this, after i had been rep grinding and dungeon crawling for gear mind you, i took it to mean "if i want to enjoy the end game content to a game i'm paying to play then i have to do so in a way that is not up to how i want to play the game i am paying to play."

i've never looked back.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1692

5/15/14 4:03:50 PM#32

I'd really like to see more open world raiding, especially within games with a pvp focus.  

Id also love to see some pvp raid dungeons.   

  Jaedor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 998

5/15/14 7:15:33 PM#33

Well thought out and written post, Ryahl.

 

I've just gone through a guild schism in Rift where the most hardcore raiders suddenly departed, decimating the guild and officer ranks, and not leaving not much of anything remaining except to start over. Looking forward to seeing how WoD's raid revisions pan out.

  docminus2

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/04/13
Posts: 142

5/16/14 2:59:06 AM#34

Regarding the social part - that goes for general PVE/PVP as well. The most fun I think I had in terms of "grind" was in SWG pre-NGE. The way combat was, you could actually type in chat and get some nice (and sometimes less) conversations out of the whole thing. That wasn't possible with the NGE combat. Neither did I ever encounter this in any MMO again after that, hence making grind dull and boring and can't understand how some people find it "attractive" necessity in an MMO. Guess that's what happens if their is no content or if it is gobbled up too quickly.

 

In a way the same with Raid (also, generic dungeon grouping) - it is and always has been easier if you had RL friends - they take care of each other in a different way, they respect each other differently, I suspect for one thing at least since the anonymity aspect is gone. And if there is no social interaction (still not everyone uses voice nowadays), then it is just mechanistically treadmill and that is not everyone's cup of tea. 

 

Here again, the best fun with Dungeon runs was years after SWG in WoW where friends were dungeon & quest grinding/boosting each other. Dungeons were fun since you actually could have a look at them and not just zombie through them. Without that, WoW ended up being a single player game again. 

 

In the end, what do you expect people to do with a game after a while? There are 2 kinds - either you want something new after a while and you won't stick with same thing over and over, or you like that you can use your knowledge and seemingly advance (and perhaps some nostalgia of feeling "at home"). The latter will do raid, the former won't. Or?

 
  Haldurson

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/14
Posts: 23

5/16/14 4:30:14 AM#35

I learned to hate raiding in EQ -- it put a bitter taste in my mouth that forever left a dark mark on my soul.

 

You cannot talk about raiding in EQ without mentioning heal rotations. It turned ordinary players into machines, and if you were not like a machine (except if things hit the fan and you had to compensate on the fly), you were doing it wrong.  You had to literally count seconds between each heal and press a button. Most of the time it was done with macros, but that didn't change the soul-killing effect that it had on people.  Clerics in raiding guilds would suffer burnout at unprecedented numbers, plus if you were a cleric, you were REQUIRED to do the equally soul-killing water sprinkler of Nemh Ankh quest which meant incredibly frustrating drama with other guilds having to wait in a queue that could be months long for a specific dragon to spawn, and if someone happened to steal the loot, you would lose your place in line and have to wait  months longer.  If you were a cleric, raids would not happen until you got there.   (I was a top cleric in a  top raiding guild).   If you were late, and dps, no one cared.  If you were late and a cleric, never mind excuses, never mind that maybe you had to work late, everyone was miserable and give you a hard time.

 

It wasn't until I spoke with other EQ clerics that I found out that it wasn' t just me that had learned to hate raiding.  Besides, raiding has always been too much of a military operation and not enough of a fun game-like activity.  You have to follow orders to the letter.  You can't make mistakes, or everyone is miserable.  If the cost of a mistake is misery, then there's something very wrong at the root of it all.

 
  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 2066

Posts deleted: 12589457

5/16/14 5:50:25 AM#36
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by DaGaffer

The linked article on me talking WildStar from 2013 is fine, but check out yesterday's raid update;  it's seriously the best we have ever done:

Holy snikeys

^^^ Shill ;)

At least they are honest and open about it.

Wildstar is about to launch and bring bigtime raiding back.

-Trion sends its shill with an article about Rift endgame raiding http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/431/feature/8471/Rift-Eyes-on-Endgame.html

-Blizzard sending a shill with this article.

Ups, did i say "shill"? Of course i meant "freelancing author"...

  joedank

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 12

5/16/14 9:57:05 AM#37
Retarded causal players ruined raiding. All this small scale walking in and beat everything in an hr or to style raiding is terrible. Hopefully wildstar can restore raiding to what it supposed to be: NOT CASUAL!
  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 2012

5/16/14 10:46:27 AM#38
Originally posted by darkedone02

I know in the future, raiding in a mmo using VR technology and an "out of body" VR becoming a thing in the future, raiding will become hard, hard like reality. Controls in VR going to change everything in the game, as we no longer react with keyboard and mouse, those things will no longer exist, instead we react by movement. When we block, we really have to catch the blow with shield, staff, or sword. If you have to dodge, you really have to step out of the blow... if you really want to duel wield in the game, you really need to learn how to hold and use a weapon on each hand, you will probably be taking almost medieval military lesson on how to wield a blade, how to use magic, and how to better yourself... you will have an alternative life experience like you was born in a totally different planet and face a different reality... That's the future that I see in raiding in mmo's is that it's coming so close to reality, that we all going to feel it and we are all in for a surprise... watch how hard it really is to take down deathwing himself in a VR game.

Ah to be young and possessed of lightning-fast reflexes again!  By the time something like this comes along I'll be geriatric and in need of serious augmentation to stand a chance of raiding.  It does sound fun, though.  No ageism, whipper snappers!  

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Akumawraith

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 214

Why is it said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Is there a shortage of bad ones?

5/16/14 11:44:00 AM#39

I like this column it pokes at the real issue in raids and how they have changed over the years. I remember the open world raids of EQ and in 2004 I was doing some open world raiding in WOW. but then things changed.

 

I am not a fan of the modern raiding system. To me it seems less targeted at the challenge and difficulty of getting a large group of players to work together to accomplish a goal. Instead its a number based system that requires you to have a set number for gear level and not all that challenging.

 

As far as your comment on an open world game that will offer real raiding again that has no instances and relies on a social structure all I can say is pay attention to Citadel of Sorcery. It is the only MMORPG that i have seen that is breaking the mold and pushing both the MMO social aspect as well as new style game play to the limits.

Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT

Playing: WoT and anything else to break the boredom until something better comes out.

Tired of: Linear Quest games, Dailies, and Dumbed down games

Anticipating:Star Citizen,Citadel of Sorcery

  Vonatar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 598

5/16/14 11:52:46 AM#40

Please learn to apostrophe.

 

Even amateur game journalists should know or at least learn that "MMO's" is not a plural, but a possessive of a single MMO.

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