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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Freedom VS Safety (in mmos).

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40 posts found
  Lithuanian

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/06
Posts: 175

5/08/14 5:11:48 AM#21
Safety only.  Can't see use of huge world where on every step my lvl.7 toon may be and will ge killed by some lvl. 77 just out of fun. Just because I am lvl.7 or because it is Monday or just because "noobz deserve to die".

http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com

  eldaris

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 326

5/08/14 5:55:02 AM#22


Originally posted by KJ30

Originally posted by eldaris If you want responsibility how about ffa games having permadeath followed by a complete ban of the account ? Really sad using quotes from patriots or revolutionaries which risked their own life to justify a style of play which exists only because the "hardcore" griefer is just risking a few hours of grinding again their armour/skills even in most hardcore ffa games.
Hi eldaris,

I was not trying to justify any playstyle , with the 2 quotes. What i was trying to point is that, Freedom without responsibility in every aspect of life and in game communities does not make any sense. Always somebody will try to take advantage of this freedom and create problems to the rest community. In an ideal world 9 out of 10 people/gamers would choose freedom. Unfortunately this is not the case.


Sorry, I was referring to OP quote but saw your post about responsibility and used that in the start of my post. I agree with you about responsibility and this is the problem with ffa pvp - a small number of people have the freedom to destroy the game while there is no way to keep the griefers under control, they only lose a few hours of game time needed to farm the items/skills again.

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3316

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

5/08/14 6:02:52 AM#23

What. The. Frak ?

 

I would need a BIT more explanation.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6140

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

5/08/14 7:19:55 AM#24

How can you have Freedom if there's no Safety?

 

Anything forced upon players is not Freedom to me.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11393

5/08/14 7:23:09 AM#25

I'm reminded of New Hampshires state motto:  LIVE FREE OR DIE

(its on all the auto license plates)

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1563

5/08/14 7:33:03 AM#26
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by maccarthur2004
"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

 

Benjamim Franklin



And Benjamin later went on to form all kinds of laws that limit freedoms. Nice words. Hard to practice.

 

I voted "Safety", which I doubt surprises anyone. Player online have shown time and time again that they CAN NOT behave themselves. Because of these few, the rest have to suffer with limited Freedoms.

I'd prefer freedom over safety. I just can not trust others to act accordingly.

Agreed 100%. Freedom is nice, but it's only truly reliable among small communities. As long as the the griefers can hide in numbers and anonymity freedom will be mostly a pipe dream.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2332

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

5/08/14 8:05:21 AM#27
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by maccarthur2004
"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

 

Benjamim Franklin



And Benjamin later went on to form all kinds of laws that limit freedoms. Nice words. Hard to practice.

 

I voted "Safety", which I doubt surprises anyone. Player online have shown time and time again that they CAN NOT behave themselves. Because of these few, the rest have to suffer with limited Freedoms.

I'd prefer freedom over safety. I just can not trust others to act accordingly.

This becomes an interesting topic in behavioral science.  Do laws prevent crime? Or are they there just to punish?  It's already been settled that law enforcement agencies are not there to protect the people, they clean up the mess.

I think it's more interesting if the game lets you break the law but punishes in return.  A little simulated danger is fun, after all we are still playing a game.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10507

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/08/14 9:53:39 AM#28
Originally posted by Reklaw

How can you have Freedom if there's no Safety?

 

Anything forced upon players is not Freedom to me.

 

If we take a look at Darkfall or Eve, are players free to do what they wish?  Not really.  Gather resources in the wrong area or just go some place alone and you are likely to end up dead, with no supplies left to your name because other players have decided that you are not free to do as you wish.  The idea that games that allow this to happen are providing "freedom" is false.

 

What games are providing is a rule set that the players like.  There is no more freedom in Eve than there is in WoW.  Players are doing what they want and the experience of "freedom" is the same in either game for different players.  It just depends on which set of rules a person wants to follow.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Foobarx

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

5/08/14 10:03:01 AM#29

Just add the IWIN option to the screen... player clicks it, their account is charged $1000 and they are instantly given all the best items and everything in game... within about 5 minutes of bragging online about it, the character is turned to stone and a plaque is placed before them stating "Herein lies the greatest MMO player ever".  

 

Finally real proof that you did it all and finished the game.

  Aeonblades

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

5/08/14 10:13:19 AM#30

Depends on the game, but if we are talking strictly from a monetary stand point, safety will win every time. If we are talking about raising the bar or doing something different, then Freedom wins out obviously. This isn't really a fair question as it depends from game to game.

 

Another thing to take into account: Forced freedom isn't freedom. So it really depends on the game and what crowd they are looking at appealing to.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16574

5/08/14 10:14:08 AM#31

Safety is a kinda fuzzy word, do you mean limited PvP, easy PvE or what?

Freedom is of course importanbut I am not sure full loot MMO and it's current form is so much about freedom or realism. Since you can carry loads of stuff in them it usually means that a zerg can go and kill small groups of players and carry loads of stuff from a whole bunch of killed noobs.

I rather think risk Vs reward is more important here, Zerg ganking ain't particularly risky unless you meet an even larger zerg so the reward for that should be rather slim.Defeating a player with better stats and gear in one on one on the other hand is very risky and should be rewarded as such. And if that limits the freedom (meaning that you could loot less when you zerg) then that is fine by me.

And of course the same thing goes for PvE, the harder the greater reward.

Ganking a noob with an experienced and well equipped character have zero risk in most MMOs and should be rewarded as such. 

It is taking risks and defeating hard opponents that makes a game worth playing anyways.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3020

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

5/08/14 10:19:45 AM#32


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by maccarthur2004
"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

Benjamim Franklin



And Benjamin later went on to form all kinds of laws that limit freedoms. Nice words. Hard to practice.

I voted "Safety", which I doubt surprises anyone. Player online have shown time and time again that they CAN NOT behave themselves. Because of these few, the rest have to suffer with limited Freedoms.

I'd prefer freedom over safety. I just can not trust others to act accordingly.



This becomes an interesting topic in behavioral science.  Do laws prevent crime? Or are they there just to punish?  It's already been settled that law enforcement agencies are not there to protect the people, they clean up the mess.

I think it's more interesting if the game lets you break the law but punishes in return.  A little simulated danger is fun, after all we are still playing a game.



Well, the "theory" behind law making is deterring crimes, not preventing them. Instead of 100 people robbing banks, hopefully (and that is the key word) only 50 will do so. The hope is that some people will think twice about what they are doing.

Law enforcement is in a sticky mess. They reactionary only (thankfully). They can not "prevent" crimes, only react after the crimes have been committed.

If there were game systems in place to punish law breakers, I would be all for players being able to break the law. Rarely do you see this, though :)

Can you just imagine the outrage if there was a system for, say... theft. Steal something, get 1 week in jail, ie: Can not play for 1 week. Now, tack on a sub fee and players would be triply outraged :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Flyte27

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2255

5/08/14 10:22:18 AM#33

It depends on the people and the environment. 

I'm not a huge fan of open world PvP.  My favorite PvP is the having the option to dual someone else.

I don't like the PvE quests in today's games.  There is generally only one way to play.  That way is how the developer wants you to play the game.  It becomes monotonous fairly quickly having to do a lot of quests that are fairly easy to do.  It would be nice to see an MMO like Dark Souls where it's more about trying different areas to see what you can handle and what you need to do to unlock different pathways.  It's nice having a game that doesn't lead you around from one safe point to the next safe point.

There seems to be more and more rules piling up these days overall.  In games this results in simpler play, but in real life it makes things a lot more complicated.

  Sevala

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/08
Posts: 104

5/08/14 10:24:17 AM#34

I think many people will have different views of "Freedom", however, since you listed safety as the other option, I think we can out on a limb and just say this is another "open world pvp" vs "non-pvp" thread.

 

However, if you mean the Freedom to build, be creative, not be railroaded into cookie cutter builds by Devs/Designers, to explore a game at a pace of one's own choosing, to not have every choice made for me, to not be limited by the idiotic notions of "balance", or to not be railroaded into some "trinity class"...Then yes, I would pick Freedom every time.

 

However, I am not a huge fan of any open world PVP game I have encountered yet, as they have resulted in nothing more than gankfests and/or zerg balls where the only thing that matters is numbers. I'd much rather prefer a game with a flag (with timer) that you turn on or off for open world PVP so people of both ideals can both have their options and enjoy the game equally and not be forced into one choice or the other.

~I am Many~

  YoungCaesar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 228

5/08/14 11:08:01 AM#35
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Reklaw

How can you have Freedom if there's no Safety?

 

Anything forced upon players is not Freedom to me.

 

If we take a look at Darkfall or Eve, are players free to do what they wish?  Not really.  Gather resources in the wrong area or just go some place alone and you are likely to end up dead, with no supplies left to your name because other players have decided that you are not free to do as you wish.  The idea that games that allow this to happen are providing "freedom" is false.

 

What games are providing is a rule set that the players like.  There is no more freedom in Eve than there is in WoW.  Players are doing what they want and the experience of "freedom" is the same in either game for different players.  It just depends on which set of rules a person wants to follow.

 

By that logic, Im not free in WoW either, because I cannot slay the Demonic Dragon of Doom before I reach max lvl, hence im not "free to do as I wish" either...

  syriinx

Elite Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 894

5/08/14 11:56:22 AM#36

 

Freedom?  To build the class I want?  To gain exp how I want? To attack who I want without consequence?  To ruin the game for others?

The first two should be staples, the last two are game ruiners

 

Safety?  From making a bad class build?  From wandering high level NPCs?  From griefing asshats?

 

again, the first two are bad, the last one is good.

 

 

A well made MMORPG has very high freedom in terms of game mechanics, environment, PvE, crafting.  And safety, if desired, against the 1% of other players that are out to ruin their game.  However you should always have the choice to remove that safety.

 

So then Freedom is the clear winner, but not for the reasons the OP is trying to get it.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10507

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/08/14 12:05:14 PM#37
Originally posted by YoungCaesar
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Reklaw

How can you have Freedom if there's no Safety?

 

Anything forced upon players is not Freedom to me.

 

If we take a look at Darkfall or Eve, are players free to do what they wish?  Not really.  Gather resources in the wrong area or just go some place alone and you are likely to end up dead, with no supplies left to your name because other players have decided that you are not free to do as you wish.  The idea that games that allow this to happen are providing "freedom" is false.

 

What games are providing is a rule set that the players like.  There is no more freedom in Eve than there is in WoW.  Players are doing what they want and the experience of "freedom" is the same in either game for different players.  It just depends on which set of rules a person wants to follow.

 

By that logic, Im not free in WoW either, because I cannot slay the Demonic Dragon of Doom before I reach max lvl, hence im not "free to do as I wish" either...

 

"Freedom" as people have defined it on these forums is the freedom to play the game they wish, without regard to other players.  The only real freedom gamers have is in picking the games they want to play.  WoW does not provide "freedom" to the player who does not enjoy the rule sets within WoW and Eve does not provide "freedom" to the player who does not enjoy the rule sets within Eve.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3674

5/08/14 3:58:51 PM#38

Neither option really works for me but I chose freedom, simply because I want to be able to decide when to put myself in danger, I don't want to have danger imposed on me against my will.  If I want to go fight a mob, it's my choice to enter into a dangerous situation,, not the choice of some ganker running around the game picking people off at random.

As has been pointed out, both freedom and safety are necessary and we trade some of one for some of the other all the time, as it should be.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2707

There... are... four... lights!

5/08/14 4:11:23 PM#39

In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 29.2.

 

There's no such thing as freedom without restrictions. Anarchy isn't freedom.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10507

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/08/14 4:17:21 PM#40
Originally posted by Cephus404

Neither option really works for me but I chose freedom, simply because I want to be able to decide when to put myself in danger, I don't want to have danger imposed on me against my will.  If I want to go fight a mob, it's my choice to enter into a dangerous situation,, not the choice of some ganker running around the game picking people off at random.

As has been pointed out, both freedom and safety are necessary and we trade some of one for some of the other all the time, as it should be.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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